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Thread: Epic Destinies

  1. #1181
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Ok seriously guys I've been trying to ignore this stuff because I figured it would die down but apparently it hasn't.

    REALLY guys your actually complaining about the level cap raise and saying its a PUNISHMENT to TR....I'm sorry but its not TRing still does the same thing the only thing that's different is that time you used to spend running Raids/Epics for loot you also gain some experience/destiny progress which in Pre_MOTU just went into the ether because you were at Cap, no loss only gain.

    Simply put

    Pre-MoTU: When you TR your Level is reset back to 1 (with a slightly steeper XP curve) with a few bonuses based on your past life(s) with the option to use feats to receive further bonuses. You also keep any Loot your character had which is put in a special withdraw only bank. Note: Some equipment has MLs so cannot be used until you reach that level again

    Post-MoTU: When you TR your Level is reset back to 1 (with a slightly steeper XP curve during Heroic Levels) with a few bonuses based on your past life(s) with the option to use feats to receive further bonuses. You also keep any Loot your character had which is put in a special withdraw only bank. Lastly you keep any progress you made towards epic destinies. Note: Some equipment and E-Destiny Abilities have MLs so cannot be used until you reach that level again


    Nothing but gain there.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 05-12-2012 at 03:33 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  2. #1182
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    Quote Originally Posted by failedlegend View Post
    ok seriously guys i've been trying to ignore this stuff because i figured it would die down but apparently it hasn't.

    Really guys your actually complaining about the level cap raise and saying its a punishment to tr....i'm sorry but its not tring still does the same thing the only thing that's different is that time you used to spend running raids/epics for loot you also gain some experience/destiny progress which in pre_motu just went into the ether because you were at cap, no loss only gain.

    Simply put

    pre-motu: When you tr your level is reset back to 1 (with a slightly steeper xp curve) with a few bonuses based on your past life(s) with the option to use feats to receive further bonuses. You also keep any loot your character had which is put in a special withdraw only bank. Note: Some equipment has mls so cannot be used until you reach that level again

    post-motu: When you tr your level is reset back to 1 (with a slightly steeper xp curve during heroic levels) with a few bonuses based on your past life(s) with the option to use feats to receive further bonuses. You also keep any loot your character had which is put in a special withdraw only bank. lastly you keep any progress you made towards epic destinies. note: Some equipment and e-destiny abilities have mls so cannot be used until you reach that level again


    nothing but gain there.
    +1

  3. #1183
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    I guess the bottom line for me is what possible rationale is there for making people regain epic xp once they tr and get back to 20. There is none. Zilch. Zippo.

    Why should the overall xp needed to get to level 25 be different for someone who serially tr's then levels 21-25 versus someone who levels all the way to 25 with each tr? (unless they are giving epic past life bonuses)

    If pointing out the illogical nature of that system is "complaining", then call me a complainer.
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  4. #1184
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    I guess the bottom line for me is what possible rationale is there for making people regain epic xp once they tr and get back to 20. There is none. Zilch. Zippo.

    Why should the overall xp needed to get to level 25 be different for someone who serially tr's then levels 21-25 versus someone who levels all the way to 25 with each tr? (unless they are giving epic past life bonuses)

    If pointing out the illogical nature of that system is "complaining", then call me a complainer.
    By that logic, all they have to do to make it logical then, and to make you understand the difference, is make it so all TRs require leveling from 1-25 first.

    There isnt anything illogical about the system at all. People are COMPLAINING about being given a choice. Some are making valid points however, many make the error again of measuring in XP. If you measure it in TIME, taking two weeks off the TR grind to raid is the same amount of time, two weeks. Right now we gain nothing for doing so XP wise and the only way to advance is by getting better gear. With epic destinies, we gain advancement in a destiny, AND we can still gain gear.

    And yes it is complaining, because while Turbine is making a system where people can CHOOSE (moar options) to go one route or the other, people are complaining they want both. If they CHOOSE to stay at heroic cap and raid for two weeks, they want to be able to keep that XP. Its like asking a toddler if at a grocery store if they want skittles or a candy bar and the kid starts crying because (s)he cant have both.

    If you choose to stay at cap for two weeks, and the serial TR player TRs, and you loot a torc in a raid, would it be logical for the TR to complain that you got a torc, and they should get one too? Forget about the fact that they choose to spend their time differently, they deserve both just like you do right?
    Last edited by Chai; 05-13-2012 at 05:16 PM.

  5. #1185
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    I guess the bottom line for me is what possible rationale is there for making people regain epic xp once they tr and get back to 20. There is none. Zilch. Zippo.

    Why should the overall xp needed to get to level 25 be different for someone who serially tr's then levels 21-25 versus someone who levels all the way to 25 with each tr? (unless they are giving epic past life bonuses)
    By that logic, you should get stacking past-life racial bonuses, and start at level 20 every time you TR. Furthermore, you get to keep your progress in the epic destinies, so I don't understand what you are complaining about. TRs already get enough bonuses. More build points, all of your money and items/equipment from your last life, and the 3x stacking passive past-life bonuses, not to mention the active past-life feats. And now you want more?

  6. #1186
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SableShadow View Post
    As you pointed out, it's all a matter of grind time.
    Yes I did point that out. Are you disagreeing with me in some way?

    Now: identical grind time for my preferred playstyle, and serial TR, for a given character build objective.

    After MotU: more grind time for my preffered playstyle, compared to serial TR, for a given character build objective.

    Consider: anyone interested in TRs is also going to be interested in EDs.

    The xp required for a round of epic levels 21 to 25 appears (from what I've seen) to be trivial compared to multiple ED acquisition ... and while you're getting your EDs, you're also getting your epic levels.

    If you're going to split the two xp types and count them separately, I can make the argument that xp is "wasted" if you just sit at the cap and grind ED levels; you're getting zero useful EL xp at that point, since you're capped. (Not directed at you, but to the forums in general: There will, of course, be a suggestion to apply some % of EL xp to ED xp once capped ... this suggestion will be made within the first month of release).
    They are obviously two split xp types, and the game obviously counts them separately. Why is that even an "if"?

    As for your argument, it reinforces my case. That wasted EL XP is only actually wasted for the casual TR, since that EL XP could be going towards regaining epic levels on the next life. For the serial TR, they never cap at 25 until they are done TRing, so that EL XP isn't really wasted, since there's nothing it could be used for instead.

    Waste is about opportunity cost. For the serial TR, that EL XP isn't really wasted. For the casual TR, which will reach 25 many times between TRs, that EL XP is wasted.

    I'm arguing that tomes, xp "loss", and the like have nothing to do with the core complaint, which is "how long until I get get to endgame and how long do I have to suck once I get there before I don't".
    This is not my core complaint. However, each of my suggested fixes do mitigate this issue.

    Overall grind time doesn't change; one will be grinding xp at the cap for EDs if nothing else.
    Yes it does. For a given set of desired past-lives, gear, EDs and ELs, my preferred playstyle (end-game play with sporadic TRs) will have greater grind time than serial TR prior to end-game play. This is because in the former case, EL XP is wasted. And a great deal of it, if full epic levels are needed for true end-game play for the gear I want, during each life. In the latter case, no EL XP is wasted. Level 25 only needs to be earned once, not once per life.

    (Yet Another) Edit: I remember the tome thread and Eladrin's comment "If you keep tomes, what will you grind for?" Arguments that start with "Well, you gave us that once, so you should give us this now." ("The slope is slippery, so y'all should just slide.") aren't arguments I'm prepared to agree with.
    It's an analogy. The argument is not that "you gave it once, therefore you should give it now". It's "the same reasons for giving it once, apply to giving it now". In both cases, end-game advancement are lost on TR. In both cases, this produces an unfun, for me, penalty on my preferred playstyle.

    As for what will we grind for? It was a silly question then, and it's a silly question now. The game is utterly rife with grind, and it'll only increase in MotU. We don't need things we've actually earned taken away to keep sufficient grind in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    If you choose to stay at cap for two weeks, and the serial TR player TRs, and you loot a torc in a raid, would it be logical for the TR to complain that you got a torc, and they should get one too? Forget about the fact that they choose to spend their time differently, they deserve both just like you do right?
    A completely silly analogy. The serial TR player did not run the Raid. I did. Meanwhile, we both ran content for XP during that time. Except mine ultimately gets wasted next time I TR.

    Consider these two play patterns, in which I desire 2 past lives, and loot with an expectation of 12 weeks of level 25 play to get:

    Casual TR:
    3 weeks level to 20
    1 week level to 25
    4 weeks end-game play
    4 weeks first TR, level to 20
    1 week level to 25
    4 weeks end-game play
    5 weeks second TR, level to 20
    1 week level to 25
    4 weeks end-game play
    Total: 27 weeks

    Now, if I forced myself to use TR playstyle:
    3 weeks level to 20
    4 weeks TR, level to 20
    5 weeks TR, level to 20
    1 week level to 25
    12 weeks end-game play
    Total: 25 weeks

    The serial TR playstyle is more efficient, by 2 weeks in this example. If I did a similar example in the current game, both would be identical.

    I'm not asking for something the serial TR gets that I haven't earned with just as much play time. I'm only asking that more not be taken from me, than from the serial TR.

    So, I would like to know:

    Is it not clear, given the above example, that my preferred playstyle is less efficient than serial TR, in the post-MotU game?
    Is it not clear that in the current game, both are equally efficient?
    Last edited by dkyle; 05-14-2012 at 07:20 PM.

  7. #1187

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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    However, each of my suggested fixes do mitigate this issue.
    Works for me.

    I think we've said pretty much everything that can be constructively said on the topic, and outlined all the options and pros/cons for the devs at this point.

  8. #1188
    Community Member Nephilia's Avatar
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    On a first life toon with 2 mln xp for cap I can hit lv 20 in 2 days mostly soloing all, not bothering too much about streak and running only some quest and only 1 time (von 3 alone with streak on elite ran at lv 11 is worthed 2-3 ranks).

    On a 3rd+life toon I need to take care of streak, run almost all quest and farming (booooooring) some for extra xp (fathom the deep, stealthy rep, bloody crypt, tears, delera2-4-maybe3, shadow crypt, wk, monastery, enter the k, sane asylum, running with the d, etc just for example) so i need 2 weeks at least for a full TR.

    With this system the only complain I have is that would be a lot easier to cap all the destinies on a first lilfe and then TR several time (sure u'll need to re-exp the 21-25 lvs but u retain all the destinies so most of the work is done) and after a 4.4 mln exp grind is not the best :\
    What I propose is to lower the xp curve for TR (with adding xp bonus*n.of pl, another item similar to learning tome) or put lv 25 where is now lv 20 for a 3rd+ TRed toon or a little higher.
    Last edited by Nephilia; 05-17-2012 at 05:42 AM.
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  9. #1189
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    Now, if I forced myself to use TR playstyle:
    3 weeks level to 20
    4 weeks TR, level to 20
    5 weeks TR, level to 20
    1 week level to 25
    12 weeks end-game play
    Total: 25 weeks
    One major problem is your assumption that most people TR instantly when they hit Lvl 20...which is entirely false..most TRs do AT LEAST enough Epics to get a THoW (most of us aren't rich) if not they continue running to get loot...the only difference now is you gain Epic Destiny XP as well as level from 20-25 and you keep any Epic destiny XP you gain you just have to regain any Leveling XP which you have to do anyway Pre-MotU.

    Also I if you can Lvl a TR2+ to 20 in 5 weeks does it really matter (especially since the "long" way is only 2 weeks more)

    Seems you forget the people who play the game to get 3 Past Lifes of EVERYTHING or even just completionists is less than 1% of the population...the rest of us actual view Lvl 1-19 as gameplay not as a punishment. Maybe try having fun whilst leveling for once and you won't care as much
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 05-17-2012 at 06:30 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
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  10. #1190
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    One major problem is your assumption that most people TR instantly when they hit Lvl 20...which is entirely false..most TRs do AT LEAST enough Epics to get a THoW (most of us aren't rich) if not they continue running to get loot...the only difference now is you gain Epic Destiny XP as well as level from 20-25 and you keep any Epic destiny XP you gain you just have to regain any Leveling XP which you have to do anyway Pre-MotU.
    I'm not making that assumption. I'm talking about a hypothetical case to illustrate a point that is valid even if some time is spent at cap between serial TRs. Add time at 20+ to both examples I gave, and the serial TR remains more efficient than the spaced TR, until the serial TR spends so much time they reach 25. I would not call that a serial TR anymore.

    I'm also not talking about "most people". In fact, I don't care one whit how other people play the game. I'm talking about my own enjoyment of the game.

    And I'm also not talking about what my playstyle gains or loses post-MotU in comparison to now. I'm comparing two possible post-MotU playstyles I could pursue, and showing how the more time is spent at cap, the more ineffecient the leveling strategy is, post-MotU. The pure serial TR is an extreme example, sure, but it illustrates the point. Post-MotU a 2-week-at-20+ playstyle will be more efficient than a 20-week-at-20+. Whereas in the current game, time spent at 20 does not make a playstyle any more or less efficient than any other.

    Also I if you can Lvl a TR2+ to 20 in 5 weeks does it really matter (especially since the "long" way is only 2 weeks more)
    It's just an example. The specific numbers are besides the point. It could be 5 weeks or 50. The salient point would remain with any numbers.

    The point is how differing arrangements of the same blocks of gameplay produce different efficiencies in the post-MotU game, when those arrangements are equally efficient in todays game.

    Seems you forget the people who play the game to get 3 Past Lifes of EVERYTHING or even just completionists is less than 1% of the population...the rest of us actual view Lvl 1-19 as gameplay not as a punishment.
    If you think I am playing the game to get 3 past lives of everything or even just completionist, you are sorely mistaken. I also do not view level 1-19 as punishment. It's just not something I want to do repeatedly in a row, through serial TR.

    Besides, 1-19 leveling is tangential to the point. It has nothing to do with the issue I'm posting about. No matter the playstyle, 1-19 leveling is identical either way, for a given set of past lives. So noone is being "punished" with more level 1-19 gameplay by spaced TRs instead of serial TRs. It's what happens at 20+ that's at issue.

  11. #1191
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    I love it the way it is currently outlined. Why?

    Because it puts people into the decision dilema that is completely 100% in the spirit of D&D, thats why. Theres more than one path to building a powerful toon, and now players will have to choose which they want to persue and the order they wish to persue them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Seems you forget the people who play the game to get 3 Past Lifes of EVERYTHING or even just completionists is less than 1% of the population...the rest of us actual view Lvl 1-19 as gameplay not as a punishment. Maybe try having fun whilst leveling for once and you won't care as much
    This hits the nail right on the head.

    Those who enjoy playing the entire game have no issue with the current presented outline of how this will all work. The people who chase shineys in the FOTMoD endgame content only and view the rest of the game as an XP grind to slog through are the ones posting their discontent, that somehow giving us another option to increase build power decreased enjoyment of play. Those who enjoy playing the entire game dont have an issue.
    Last edited by Chai; 05-21-2012 at 05:31 PM.

  12. #1192
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Semantics. Give someone a small carrot and they complain they are done with it and still hungry. Give them a large carrot and they complain it takes too long to eat it. At this point its a catch 22 for Turbine. Theres no way to please people. Many of the vets who complained about lack of content in the past are complaining about too many options getting in the way of other options nowdays. Maybe they should just change it to a system where everyone has to level to 25 before TR. That way no one gets "punished" by GAINING XP when they never used to be able to after cap.

    In other news: This is the first time in MMO history, or RPG history for that matter, where anyone has ever complained about actually gaining XP. Call Guiness.
    Last edited by Chai; 05-21-2012 at 05:44 PM.

  13. #1193
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post

    A completely silly analogy. The serial TR player did not run the Raid. I did. Meanwhile, we both ran content for XP during that time. Except mine ultimately gets wasted next time I TR.

    Consider these two play patterns, in which I desire 2 past lives, and loot with an expectation of 12 weeks of level 25 play to get:

    Casual TR:
    3 weeks level to 20
    1 week level to 25
    4 weeks end-game play
    4 weeks first TR, level to 20
    1 week level to 25
    4 weeks end-game play
    5 weeks second TR, level to 20
    1 week level to 25
    4 weeks end-game play
    Total: 27 weeks

    Now, if I forced myself to use TR playstyle:
    3 weeks level to 20
    4 weeks TR, level to 20
    5 weeks TR, level to 20
    1 week level to 25
    12 weeks end-game play
    Total: 25 weeks

    The serial TR playstyle is more efficient, by 2 weeks in this example. If I did a similar example in the current game, both would be identical.

    I'm not asking for something the serial TR gets that I haven't earned with just as much play time. I'm only asking that more not be taken from me, than from the serial TR.

    So, I would like to know:

    Is it not clear, given the above example, that my preferred playstyle is less efficient than serial TR, in the post-MotU game?
    Is it not clear that in the current game, both are equally efficient?
    No, whats not clear is:

    Why are you accounting for 1 week to level to 25 after 4 weeks of endgame play after EACH TR? In that endgame play you gain XP. Are you telling us it will require 5 weeks to level to 25 if not serial TRing?

    You also account for 1 week leveling after serial TRs, which doesnt make sense, before doing 12 weeks of end game play which will gain you plenty of epic XP.

    You are also operating under the assumption that end game play will REQUIRE being level 25. Otherwise they would not be accounted for separately, as when you are playing endgame, you gain XP after cap.

    So its more like:

    Casual TR:
    3 weeks level to 20
    1 week level to 25 -------------------Nope
    4 weeks end-game play
    4 weeks first TR, level to 20
    1 week level to 25 ------------------Nope
    4 weeks end-game play
    5 weeks second TR, level to 20
    1 week level to 25 -----------------Nope
    4 weeks end-game play
    Total: 27 weeks-------------------24 weeks - same as serial TRing - during those 4 weeks of endgame play, you gain XP. Theres no need to account for another full week each time.

    Now, if I forced myself to use TR playstyle:
    3 weeks level to 20
    4 weeks TR, level to 20
    5 weeks TR, level to 20
    1 week level to 25 --------------------Nope - during those 12 weeks of endgame play you gain XP. Theres no reason to account for another week of just leveling.
    12 weeks end-game play
    Total: 25 weeks -------------------------24 weeks.

    24 weeks = 24 weeks. Clear cut case Johnson. Sprinkle some crack on it and lets get out of here.
    Last edited by Chai; 05-21-2012 at 05:59 PM.

  14. #1194
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    Here's a simply solution to fix like 90% of the complaining going on in this thread...make 2 alts.

    Use one alt to hit cap and stay there and play epic content and never TR.

    Use the other alt to serial TR if you so desire and stack all the past life bonuses you want and go for completionist if you desire, and don't put much effort into epic levels on this toon until you are done TR'ing?

    And the best part of this solution, your end game character can constantly farm tokens while you serial TR the other character, so you never have to run epics on a build thats potentially one just capable of fast leveling and not so great in end game content.

    If you don't want to make an alt, then just ignore epic level xp completely while you grind your 20 tokens each life and the game hasn't changed 1 bit for you.

  15. #1195
    Community Member HidalgoXaran's Avatar
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    Here is my question:

    We all have done all the epic quest tons of times. If that as an impact on XP gain, will it be reseted to 0?
    Friia: lvl 20 pure human assassin, soon to be lvl 25 pure ShadowDancer Rogue

  16. #1196
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HidalgoXaran View Post
    Here is my question:

    We all have done all the epic quest tons of times. If that as an impact on XP gain, will it be reseted to 0?
    What XP are you talking about?

    There's nothing to "Reset" Epic Quests never granted any XP
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  17. #1197
    The Hatchery teh_meh's Avatar
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    If you don't like the new system, don't do it.

    Be grateful you don't have everything reset when you decide to chow down on a true heart. Which is is really what should happen.
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  18. #1198
    Community Member HidalgoXaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    What XP are you talking about?

    There's nothing to "Reset" Epic Quests never granted any XP
    Indeed, but i thought that XP diminished the more you do a quest, wheter it be on normal, hard or whatever. It's been a heck of a long time that I've been playing with my capped character, but if I recall correctly, that's the way it works no?
    Friia: lvl 20 pure human assassin, soon to be lvl 25 pure ShadowDancer Rogue

  19. #1199
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Default Idea for an Epic Moment

    How to activate: Use 50 tactical feats

    Name: Epic Discus Throw

    Description: The corporeal target, who cannot be any larger than the user, must make a strength check or be held in the air by the user. The user then selects a target to throw the held victim at. The victim is then sent flying through the air and lands on the target, who is hit with a small AoE, making both target and victim stunned and knocked down for 30 seconds with no save. The damage dealt to the target is equal to the target's weight plus their encumberance.

    Notes:
    1) If the victim is wearing a shield, armor or other equipment of a material type that can be used to break damage reduction, the victim is treated as a bludgeoning weapon of that material type for the purposes of breaking damage reduction. (Ex. If the victim is wearing a green steel helm, he is treated as an evil-aligned weapon. And if he is also wearing a flametouched iron shield, he is treated as a good-aligned weapon, as well.)

    2) This spell can be arced over obstacles.

    3) Small-sized victims, such as kobolds and halflings, have double range.

  20. #1200
    Community Member Artagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    There isnt anything illogical about the system at all. People are COMPLAINING about being given a choice. Some are making valid points however, many make the error again of measuring in XP. If you measure it in TIME, taking two weeks off the TR grind to raid is the same amount of time, two weeks. Right now we gain nothing for doing so XP wise and the only way to advance is by getting better gear. With epic destinies, we gain advancement in a destiny, AND we can still gain gear.
    This. And I will add that I do not plan on worrying about leveling to 25 on any toon which I plan to TR. I will however enjoy the benefits of leveling my ED while grinding out gear for my character. If I happen to hit 21-25 while I'm doing it, then I will be ecstatic because I will have been doubling the usefulness of gear grinding regardless. Not only am I doing something I've always done, but I'm making my character more powerful as soon as I hit 20 on every subsequent life. It is in no way a penalty for TR characters. If you decide to wait until your last life to do any grinding, then that was the choice you would have made without the ED system in place, and I guarantee you will STILL be making progress, because there is bound to be left-over xp from when you hit level 20, even if it was only 50 xp, that's still progress.

    Additionally, if you do make progress on your epic destinies due to grinding before a TR, your destinies will be that much easier to level on your next TR because you'll have more "first time" bonuses available to you on each life, so you can maximize your ED xp.

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