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Thread: Epic Destinies

  1. #1041
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjesko View Post
    It would help if monsters are immune to death effects until their hp reach 50 %. Enhancements could improve that to 75 %.
    It would help if they got rid of these accursed blanket immunities that epic mobs have and just increased their saves.

  2. #1042
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeolwind View Post
    I would not stick around. Grinding epics is what I avoid by TR'ing. And I enjoy TR'ing. DDO's epic system to me is fairly <insert word here describing the most horrible thing in life or death you can imagine>. You can say it is going to be overhauled, but we aren't playing blindman's bluff here; I won't believe it till I see it.
    He said later that they won't go that way. TR will stay at 20.
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  3. #1043
    Community Member Aeolwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razcar View Post
    He said later that they won't go that way. TR will stay at 20.
    I apparently had skipped that in the dev tracker. There was quite the string there.
    Aeolwind (5/12) - 18 Sorc/1 Art | Melisandria - 20 Fighter SD | Anlona - 20 cleric RS

  4. #1044
    Community Member Nick_RC's Avatar
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    Quick question for the devs,

    Looking over the tree it seems that divines are being bundled under the 'Angel' one for the moment. Is this primarily some sort of 'hugs and kisses im a healbot' destiny or will it offer something to those of us who want to smash apart the enemies.

    Many thanks

    N

    Edit (I know I can choose other destinies but the DC one like magister will likely lose alot of its clout when spread to a divine. Although that finishing move for dreadnought could be really cool if my implosion added to stack size)
    Last edited by nick_robinsonchia; 05-08-2012 at 08:18 AM.
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  5. #1045
    Community Member Eladiun's Avatar
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    TR's were a trick to keep us engaged and grinding the same content while Turbine released F2P and overhauled all the low level content. We all bought in.

    TR's are the past. Progression is Epic Destinies.

    Good Riddance TRing.

    Good Riddance grinding the same content I've run for 6 years.

    Hello Forgotten Realms and Epic Destinies
    “If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do succeed.”

  6. #1046
    Founder & Hero jjflanigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matuse View Post
    And most of the power in the future game looks to come from epic destinies, which a level 20 can have in essentially the same degree as a 25.

    There will be better level 25 gear (how much better? I'm guessing not a lot, compare alchemicals to greensteel...that's the kind of increase we're likely to see), and there will be level-gated destiny abilities, but I think these will have less of an impact that many seem to assume.

    Right now, there's a WORLD of difference between a level 16 wizard and a level 17 wizard. Wail alone places a giant steel wall that separates the power level of these two characters. I believe that the difference between a 20 and a 25 will be a fraction of that kind of gap.
    I would expect there to be a fairly large gap between 20 and 25 since, as you pointed out, they've stated that the higher tier epic destinies will have level requirements.

    It's all guess work right now, but my feeling is that the ED that require level 25 will be "huge" in comparison to the level 20 ones. If the level 20 ones are comparable to Finger of Death and the level 25 ones are comparable to Wail, it just takes one "awesome" ED at the higher level to keep the gap.

    Just to clarify, I think there SHOULD be a gap. I think each level gain from 21-25 should bring a noticeable increase to the character power that is available.

    -JJ

  7. #1047
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emili View Post
    Not really... be not sure if Matt was asking about "Epic feats", Page 2 only shows the two character feat slots within level 25 which I assume pretty much heroic feating will be used.

    Epic level D&D have what are known as "Epic feats" i.e.

    are many others like Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, Great Smiting, Improved Manyshot, Improved Stunning Fist ... but, this being a more generic system I cannot see them translating and adding many as the base prereq's imply some required "epic class" levels - which usually have more epic feat space in there due epic class bonus - so not so generic.
    I thought for sure I saw a dev post that said with the epic feats you gain post 20 you can choose from either regular feats or epic feats, but I can't seem to find that post now...

    Possibly it was edited away due to being a 'slipped bean'...


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  8. #1048
    Community Member delsoboss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordax View Post
    They are not being handled any differently then anything else.

    How will casters get additional spell points? Epic destinies.
    How will casters get additional caster levels? Epic destinies.
    How will pure melee get more attack bonuses? Epic destinies.
    How will ranged get better at ranged? Epic destinies.
    How will bards get better at singing? Epic destinies.
    How will rogues get better at skills? Epic destinies.
    Etc.

    Some of these are assumptions, some aren't. But in general I am pretty sure the above list is accurate. No class currently gets everything that their heroic class grants. Melee don't get full BAB. Casters don't get caster levels and more spell slots, etc.
    Uhm probably i'm not making myself clear enough but your first sentence make you sound like you haven't read my post after what you've quoted.

    A more fitting analogy to understand what's going on that i think is flawed:
    Dev (announcing Epic Destinies): You'll be able to punch people in the future and do all kind of crazy things with the destinies!
    Us: Yay!
    Dev: Oh and epic levels will give everyone 4 hp, +1 saves every odd level, +1 attack bonus every even level 2 feat choices (at 21st and 24th level) and 6+int skill points, enjoy!
    Us: uh what? 4 hp per Epic level? How's that Epic?
    Fictionary Vordax: Relax you're not an xxx anymore, one of the destinies will give you hp, problem solved
    ...

    Now you see it?
    For attack bonus and saves they're going with the d&d rules for the edition ddo is based on, they scratched class abilities and replaced them with the destinies that are kinda sorta epic prestige classes (but swappable).
    For hit points they have arbitrarily chosen to give everyone the same amount (almost the highest possible).
    For skill points they have arbitrarily chosen to give everyone the same amount (the lowest possible).

    In their arbitrary choice they're trashing the skill system, that's what i'm not happy with.

    Saying that i should stick to a specific destiny just to get what's being taken away from me without any sort of justification (and no "you're not X anymore" doesn't cut it, because that doesn't explain why they're giving us 2+int and not 40+int) is implicitly admitting that this fail-move will restrict player choices in a system that's advertised to offer great flexibility all around.

  9. #1049

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladiun View Post
    TR's were a trick to keep us engaged and grinding the same content while Turbine released F2P and overhauled all the low level content. We all bought in.

    TR's are the past. Progression is Epic Destinies.

    Good Riddance TRing.

    Good Riddance grinding the same content I've run for 6 years.

    Hello Forgotten Realms and Epic Destinies
    We still grind favor. TRing won't die any more than favor grinding did.

  10. #1050
    Community Member orakio's Avatar
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    @delsoboss

    The problem is that Hp gains are always useful, skill gains aren't(if you exceed the dc's you need already then no point to it). What skills do you need so bad that you couldn't acquire with 12 starting int and a +2-4 tome? UMD, Disable, Search.... almost everything else you should have so far above typically skill dc's at this point that it isn't even funny.

    The problem if you start with 6+int modifier is that everyone and their mother could get capped umd with just the new epic levels, even if they havn't invested a single point in it pre-epic or multi'd to a UMD class.

    The reality is almost everyone loses something by the new baseline epic levels. Full BAB classes lose +3hit, 3/4 BAB classes lose +1 hit, bluebars don't gain new SP, high skillpoint classes lose skillpoints. Epic levels are just different this way.

  11. #1051
    Community Member Avidus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrkGrismer View Post
    I thought for sure I saw a dev post that said with the epic feats you gain post 20 you can choose from either regular feats or epic feats, but I can't seem to find that post now...

    Possibly it was edited away due to being a 'slipped bean'...
    Here it is:
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    <snip>
    Characters that are level 21 or higher may select Epic or Heroic feats as their level 21 and 24 feat selections.
    Still no word on what the epic feats will be or how many there will be though.
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  12. #1052
    Community Member delsoboss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    @delsoboss

    The problem is that Hp gains are always useful, skill gains aren't(if you exceed the dc's you need already then no point to it). What skills do you need so bad that you couldn't acquire with 12 starting int and a +2-4 tome? UMD, Disable, Search.... almost everything else you should have so far above typically skill dc's at this point that it isn't even funny.

    The problem if you start with 6+int modifier is that everyone and their mother could get capped umd with just the new epic levels, even if they havn't invested a single point in it pre-epic or multi'd to a UMD class.

    The reality is almost everyone loses something by the new baseline epic levels. Full BAB classes lose +3hit, 3/4 BAB classes lose +1 hit, bluebars don't gain new SP, high skillpoint classes lose skillpoints. Epic levels are just different this way.
    Uhm you're almost making me give up you know?

    In 3rd edition d&d the attack bonus (not bab) and save progression is standardized, it's equal for everyone and it's what we are getting.
    In 3rd edition d&d spellcasters don't get additional spells per day or spells known in epic levels, they need to get feats for that.
    In 3rd edition d&d classes retain their hit dices, skill points and class features/special abilities.

    DDO is loosely based on 3rd edition d&d.

    Developers are following pnp closely on ab, saves and spells, they took out class special abilities and features and replaced them with swappable destinies (special powers taken, special powers given).

    Then they arbitrarily decided everyone gets 10 hp and 2+int skill points ... out of the blue, that's what i'm trying (in vain it seems) to fight here (the skill points thing, don't care about the hp thing).

    Your first sentence about skill being not usefull and hps always usefull hints at an mmo mentality where only "usefull" things need to stay, that's bad for d&d and ddo, want to play like that? Spend all your skill points in heal and repair, but don't try forcing me to accept the fact they're dismissing the skill system.

  13. #1053
    Community Member orakio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by delsoboss View Post
    Uhm you're almost making me give up you know?

    In 3rd edition d&d the attack bonus (not bab) and save progression is standardized, it's equal for everyone and it's what we are getting.
    In 3rd edition d&d spellcasters don't get additional spells per day or spells known in epic levels, they need to get feats for that.
    In 3rd edition d&d classes retain their hit dices, skill points and class features/special abilities.

    DDO is loosely based on 3rd edition d&d.

    Developers are following pnp closely on ab, saves and spells, they took out class special abilities and features and replaced them with swappable destinies (special powers taken, special powers given).

    Then they arbitrarily decided everyone gets 10 hp and 2+int skill points ... out of the blue, that's what i'm trying (in vain it seems) to fight here (the skill points thing, don't care about the hp thing).

    Your first sentence about skill being not usefull and hps always usefull hints at an mmo mentality where only "usefull" things need to stay, that's bad for d&d and ddo, want to play like that? Spend all your skill points in heal and repair, but don't try forcing me to accept the fact they're dismissing the skill system.
    In 3rd edition d&d classes retain their hit dices, skill points and class features/special abilities.
    You aren't gaining class levels, hence your skill points and hit dice aren't based on class as per PnP. You are gaining epic character levels which are only a framework for where the real epic character system comes into play, ED's.

    In PnP you gain epic levels as actual class levels and that determines things like skill points and hp gains. DDO isn't doing that, epic class levels are being introduced through the concepts of epic destinies. The epic levels themselves are just a way of gating destiny options and showing some character progression for time spent. Don't act like the option to play a heavy skill character isn't there because you don't want to play an ED that focuses more on it.

    If you want the skill points that is an option, you just have to select the ED for it. The ED's are the real equivalent of epic class levels in this sytem when you consider that they contain both the features, and the new version of enhancements for the "class". You are more than free to not like that system, but that doesn't mean the option isn't there and at least the ED system gives you far more flexiblity with the ability to swap "classes" if you want to change how your character plays in epic content.

    The other thing to note is that with twists of fate there exists the potential for you to be able to slot bonus skills as a twist of fate into other ED's. We don't know if that is the case or not, but if it is, then is the lower base skillpoints a problem? You can still keep most of your uniqueness of ED selection without losing a part of DDO that you really seem to care about. If everyone gained skills in epic levels with 6+int base like rogues/arti's/bard's do in heroic levels it could cause serious issues with UMD. The developers most likely went with a lower starting point with the option to increase the amount as a balancing factor.
    Last edited by orakio; 05-08-2012 at 09:56 AM.

  14. #1054
    Community Member Monkey-Boy's Avatar
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    Can we haz MOAR information please? Can we get some more details regarding what the EDs specifically give us?

    The last ED I had was fixed with some blue-bills, hopefully these will be better.
    Last edited by Monkey-Boy; 05-08-2012 at 09:51 AM.

  15. #1055
    Community Member delsoboss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orakio View Post
    You aren't gaining class levels, hence your skill points and hit dice aren't based on class as per PnP.

    In PnP you gain epic levels as actual class levels and that determines things like skill points and hp gains. DDO isn't doing that, epic class levels are being introduced through the concepts of epic destinies. The epic levels themselves are just a way of gating destiny options and showing some character progression for time spent. Don't act like the option to play a heavy skill character isn't there because you don't want to play and ED that focuses more on it.

    If you want the skill points that is an option, you just have to select the ED for it which is what is REALLY mimic'ing epic classes when you consider that it contains both the features and the new version of enhancements for the class. You are more than free to not like that system, but that doesn't mean the option isn't there and at least the ED system gives you far more flexiblity with the ability to swap "classes" if you want to change how your character plays in epic content.

    You still havn't answered however WHAT you need the skills for, what is so critical that 2+int modifier on a reasonable int can't cover.
    Ah good, now we're at it, IF i want skill points i'm FORCED to take 1 destiny, and if i spec out of it to test things or work on something i want to unlock with ToFs i lose the skills.

    So they took away something that should be a given (skills) and put them inside one of the destinies forcing me to take that destiny.
    And all this on the assumption that Shadow Dancer of Fate Singer or Something Something will give boni to all the skills i want, which i heavily doubt.

    What skills do i need? Not a single one, it's a game i don't need anything in a game, the question should be what skills i want to have on my pixeled alter ego inside a fictionary world.
    The answer? I want to keep maxing out Balance, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Spot, Tumble and Use Magic Device and i enjoy having good scores (near max) in Haggle and Listen and finally putting something in Jump and Swim. See? During my heroic level career i was able to do all this, come Epics i can't.

    Why i can't? Because the Devs arbitrarily decided to come up with new rules for skill points that prevent me from doing so. Is my point clear?

    I know i won't be a level 25 rogue, i'll be a level 20 rogue/ level 5 epic character and in doing so i'm losing 6 skill points a level and gaining 4 hit points a level, keep your hp Devs i don't need them but give me my skill points back.
    [Extending on this: Rangers, Monks, Artificers, Druids and Bards will lose skill points and gain hps with different ratios, barbarians will lose both hps and skill points, fighters and paladins won't notice anything and the other classes will just gain hps from it, so no, not everyone is losing someone from the Development decision of going with unspecified epic character levels instead of specific epic class levels]

  16. #1056
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by delsoboss View Post
    Ah good, now we're at it, IF i want skill points i'm FORCED to take 1 destiny, and if i spec out of it to test things or work on something i want to unlock with ToFs i lose the skills.

    So they took away something that should be a given (skills) and put them inside one of the destinies forcing me to take that destiny.
    And all this on the assumption that Shadow Dancer of Fate Singer or Something Something will give boni to all the skills i want, which i heavily doubt.

    What skills do i need? Not a single one, it's a game i don't need anything in a game, the question should be what skills i want to have on my pixeled alter ego inside a fictionary world.
    The answer? I want to keep maxing out Balance, Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Spot, Tumble and Use Magic Device and i enjoy having good scores (near max) in Haggle and Listen and finally putting something in Jump and Swim. See? During my heroic level career i was able to do all this, come Epics i can't.

    Why i can't? Because the Devs arbitrarily decided to come up with new rules for skill points that prevent me from doing so. Is my point clear?

    I know i won't be a level 25 rogue, i'll be a level 20 rogue/ level 5 epic character and in doing so i'm losing 6 skill points a level and gaining 4 hit points a level, keep your hp Devs i don't need them but give me my skill points back.
    [Extending on this: Rangers, Monks, Artificers, Druids and Bards will lose skill points and gain hps with different ratios, barbarians will lose both hps and skill points, fighters and paladins won't notice anything and the other classes will just gain hps from it, so no, not everyone is losing someone from the Development decision of going with unspecified epic character levels instead of specific epic class levels]
    This is all with you having no idea on the ED benefits, right? Or Twists of Fate?
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  17. #1057
    Community Member Avidus's Avatar
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    What if the maximum rank for skills is based off of heroic levels?

    Then the max rank for any skill is still only 23.

    If this were the case any skill points you gain for reaching extra levels are bonus skill points to shore up your weak points or bring up a new skill to enhance your character.

    This is probably how I would handle the whole issue.

    Assuming of course that certain DC's didn't creep out of reach in the new elite epics that is.
    Last edited by Avidus; 05-08-2012 at 10:21 AM. Reason: clarity, spelling, spacing
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  18. #1058
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    This is all with you having no idea on the ED benefits, right? Or Twists of Fate?
    Didn't a recent Supreme Court decision say that employers were allowed to deny ED benefits if they had religious objections?

  19. #1059
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avidus View Post
    Here it is:

    Still no word on what the epic feats will be or how many there will be though.
    Thanks for finding that. I guess we will find out the specifics on epic feats in two days Although it might be subject to change.


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  20. #1060
    Community Member Tirisha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    Specific Destinies increase your caster level.
    what about the CL cap? savants already have plenty of useless caster levels.
    Real life is a worse grind than any MMO.
    Sarlona:
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