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Thread: Epic Destinies

  1. #1001
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordax View Post
    They are not being handled any differently then anything else.

    How will casters get additional spell points? Epic destinies.
    How will casters get additional caster levels? Epic destinies.
    How will pure melee get more attack bonuses? Epic destinies.
    How will ranged get better at ranged? Epic destinies.
    How will bards get better at singing? Epic destinies.
    How will rogues get better at skills? Epic destinies.
    Etc.

    Some of these are assumptions, some aren't. But in general I am pretty sure the above list is accurate. No class currently gets everything that their heroic class grants. Melee don't get full BAB. Casters don't get caster levels and more spell slots, etc.
    The BAB actually throws me. Why in the world is my fighter not getting full BAB?
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  2. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    The BAB actually throws me. Why in the world is my fighter not getting full BAB?
    I'm sure such an option will be available in some regard, but it's not automatic, it's not assumed. A Sorcerer could follow that same path. I think that's cool, it opens things up.

  3. #1003
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    So, to try and compromise both sides of the auto-level to 25 argument, I had a thought earlier. How about a passive, freely granted feat that is only granted when all currently available epic destinies are at max level, and this feat allows that character to talk to the epic destiny trainer and be advanced directly to level 25, or whatever the current level cap is.

    This way, people who have already run all of the epics 40 million times can skip the now relatively useless grind for xp, and the people who would still get a notable benefit from the xp still have to run the content. Sort of reward for taking the time to grind out all of that destiny xp before doing a TR. I can't see any drawbacks to this system, as it really only benefits those who power game enough to get all of the destinies capped, and doesn't seem to hurt anyone else.

    Also, for the community at large, with respect to this feature, should there be some form of in game cost associated with it, such as 10k plat/level skipped or something like that?

  4. #1004
    Founder & Hero Vordax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    The BAB actually throws me. Why in the world is my fighter not getting full BAB?
    Because he is not a pure fighter anymore. He is a 20 fighter/5 generic epic class, not a 25 fighter. No class is getting 100% of what they had for heroic levels.

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  5. #1005
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordax View Post
    Because he is not a pure fighter anymore. He is a 20 fighter/5 generic epic class, not a 25 fighter. No class is getting 100% of what they had for heroic levels.
    I guess that makes sense. It really is a nomenclature discrepancy.

    I'm really not sure how to feel about generic leveling in general. Its much easier for class based progression to be more appealing to me than general progression.

    Thinking of it that way, the differences between, say, A fighter and A barbarian who both take the legendary dreadnaught destiny is entirely heroic based. Epic levels wouldn't add any additional variation between them.
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  6. #1006
    Community Member SardaofChaos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadereaper33 View Post
    So, to try and compromise both sides of the auto-level to 25 argument, I had a thought earlier. How about a passive, freely granted feat that is only granted when all currently available epic destinies are at max level, and this feat allows that character to talk to the epic destiny trainer and be advanced directly to level 25, or whatever the current level cap is.

    This way, people who have already run all of the epics 40 million times can skip the now relatively useless grind for xp, and the people who would still get a notable benefit from the xp still have to run the content. Sort of reward for taking the time to grind out all of that destiny xp before doing a TR. I can't see any drawbacks to this system, as it really only benefits those who power game enough to get all of the destinies capped, and doesn't seem to hurt anyone else.

    Also, for the community at large, with respect to this feature, should there be some form of in game cost associated with it, such as 10k plat/level skipped or something like that?
    This would be acceptable for me. Don't see a reason for it to cost anything, though; that's the equivalent of going from 20-25 10 times in order to max all destinies, if I read the info correctly.

  7. #1007
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey-Boy View Post
    yes . . . but as it is now you can spend a few weeks at cap and participate in end-game without being carried through stuff.

    Will our 20-24s be able to do that after MoTU goes live? Will anything less than a 25 with decent EDs be a piker in the Loth raid?

    All of this is unknown, dismissing concern about this is as naive as crying D00000m!!!!

    We still need lots more information.
    I highly doubt a capped 20 TR with multiple past lives, red scale, abashai set, claw set, and an eSOS will be piking because level 25s are just so much more uber that players absolutely must be level 25 to compete.

    This has never happened before in DDO, which has seen multiple cap raises in its 6 year history.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    I guess that makes sense. It really is a nomenclature discrepancy.

    I'm really not sure how to feel about generic leveling in general. Its much easier for class based progression to be more appealing to me than general progression.

    Thinking of it that way, the differences between, say, A fighter and A barbarian who both take the legendary dreadnaught destiny is entirely heroic based. Epic levels wouldn't add any additional variation between them.
    Just an AP / enhancement / whatever difference, yes.
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  9. #1009
    Founder & Hero Vordax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    Thinking of it that way, the differences between, say, A fighter and A barbarian who both take the legendary dreadnaught destiny is entirely heroic based. Epic levels wouldn't add any additional variation between them.
    Possibly, but the twists of fate will add some additional powers from other destinies which should add some variation. From the mock up it also looks like the destines are like action points, and you probably won't have enough AP to purchase all abilities in the destiny leading to further variation.

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  10. #1010
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I highly doubt a capped 20 TR with multiple past lives, red scale, abashai set, claw set, and an eSOS will be piking because level 25s are just so much more uber that players absolutely must be level 25 to compete.

    This has never happened before in DDO, which has seen multiple cap raises in its 6 year history.
    Well, there will almost certainly be level gates on content and gear.

    Think of it this way, a master blitz with 50% dodge and potentially stacking up a bunch've 25% damage bonuses with a theoretical limit of 100 stacks is already amazingly more powerful than the alternative.

    Furthermore, acquisition of the higher tier destiny's (even if you've unlocked them) will also be level gated.

    I don't think that I can take my fighter, who has every piece of gear in the game and all of his relevant past lives, will bring much to the table when grouped with characters that are 25 and have their destinies. These abilities really seem very powerful, which is a great thing, because it looks like we will need them to take on the incredibly powerful adversaries we will be facing in FR.
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  11. #1011
    Community Member Monkey-Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I highly doubt a capped 20 TR with multiple past lives, red scale, abashai set, claw set, and an eSOS will be piking because level 25s are just so much more uber that players absolutely must be level 25 to compete.

    This has never happened before in DDO, which has seen multiple cap raises in its 6 year history.
    Compared to a level 25 guy with the SAME GEAR? Absolutely the 20 will be piking.


    You don't think we're getting better gear for min-level 25? I'm not sure as one of the strong points of DDO is it doesn't make all your gear out-dated every mod. But we won't know until we see what goes live.

  12. #1012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey-Boy View Post
    Compared to a level 25 guy with the SAME GEAR? Absolutely the 20 will be piking.


    You don't think we're getting better gear for min-level 25? I'm not sure as one of the strong points of DDO is it doesn't make all your gear out-dated every mod. But we won't know until we see what goes live.
    Contributing less is not the same as piking. A newly capped first life 20 with mediocre gear is not piking when he or she is in a quest with a super geared umpteenth life completionist. They're not contributing as much, but as long as they work with the rest of the party and as long as they put some effort into their DCs or To Hit, then they're contributing at least more than half of what the super-character is contributing.

    Also, we don't yet know what the level limits for gear will be for the new content. We don't know if all of the new gear will be generic "Epic" which has min level 20 or if the new gear will have minimum levels ranging from 21 through 25.

  13. #1013
    Community Member Emili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HungarianRhapsody View Post
    Contributing less is not the same as piking. A newly capped first life 20 with mediocre gear is not piking when he or she is in a quest with a super geared umpteenth life completionist. They're not contributing as much, but as long as they work with the rest of the party and as long as they put some effort into their DCs or To Hit, then they're contributing at least more than half of what the super-character is contributing.

    Also, we don't yet know what the level limits for gear will be for the new content. We don't know if all of the new gear will be generic "Epic" which has min level 20 or if the new gear will have minimum levels ranging from 21 through 25.
    That's really dependent on what you're playing and who and what you're surrounded with... Contribution currently on high end is pretty much player/character/gear based. Currently there exist very few places where team play or near team play is required by entire group. Many places the class/gear/build power far exceed that which is required and the tasks to be delt steam-rolled over.

    What I am presenting here is the contribution of that one neawly capped/not-so-geared 20 player among a group of high-experienced/high-geared is dependent on other players surrounding that player allowing them to contribute. The newly capped level 20 is usually such a drop in the bucket becoming pretty much equivalent to the task being short-manned. I speak of this from a stand point of observation both in quests and in private message tells usually generated from such.

    Mention of gear... I expect the gear of level 21-25 to be quite formidable, I also heard tell that that gear is not usable outside of level 21-25 areas... rumor? speculation? wait an' see...

    but... be so, also brings to mind the current cannith craft ml's - capped - within such design/release notes they mentioned as the cap extends these capped crafted items will also extend.

    Even with the master craftsmanship on it this simple demon beater may become a ml above 20 as the character level cap increases?




    Last edited by Emili; 05-07-2012 at 05:38 PM.
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  14. #1014
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    First of all, I just want to say thanks to Durnak, all other TR'ers, and everyone else for remaining civil and constructive in this thread. It truly is something to see such a rapidly growing thread filled with so much intense passion and debate without anyone resorting to, well, undesirable behaviors. (hopefully I didn't just jinx it).

    I want to point out that we gave special consideration to TR's in this design. In no way did we want to have anyone feel like they got a bad deal. Allowing players to TR at level 20 when the level cap was increased was supposed to be a good thing (especially considering the recent heroic-only XP boost). We thought we were providing flexibility.

    That said, this is a complex issue and we certainly don't have any completionists on the dev team so I'm grateful for all of you sharing your perspective.

    So, where does that leave us? It sounds to me like the TR'ing should require players to go through all levels (1-25). That would solve the issues of feeling like 21-25 were unnecessary and there being a level gap between TR's who are 'on break' and fellow capped players.

    What if the TR XP curve for heroic levels was adjusted so that less XP was required through levels, say, 15+ to (somewhat) compensate for the epic levels? This would also help the issue that some have complained about - namely not enough content in these levels for TR'ers. One downside is that the recent heroic XP boost would of course be heroic only.

    Just throwing this out to see what comes back, I am not promising anything.
    I'm definitely not a uber DDO veteran, but I do love the game and here's my input on the subject of TRing, level 25, and epic destinies:

    I have one TR character who I have gotten to level 14 and I have to say with the huge exp increase from just one TR, it gets boring very quickly to have to power run the same dungeon over and over again. I can't even imagine how it must feel on the second TR with the final exp increase. I think either lowering the exp of TR to 25% then 50% rather then 50% 100% as it is right now or go through and increase the exp you gain from dungeons from levels 1-20. It would be nice to see some dungeons give better exp so if one does TR, you don't feel the need to hammer VON3 until you want to gauge out your eyes.

    One thing I can guarantee is with the increase to level 25, you're going to see a lot less TRing from the more casual group of DDO players because no one will want to suffer through a huge exp penalty AND have to re-level 20 to 25.
    Also, depending on the expected progression from level 20 to 25, I don't think people will be thrilled to level slow as heck from 1 to 20 and then blaze from 21 to 25.

    Anyway, keep up the good work and I look forward to the expansion!

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  15. #1015
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOTMON View Post
    Epic Utility Vest has +20 disable (competence)

    Tools are +7 for +5 thieves tools not +5 (2base and add the +value)
    Greensteel Intel Skills item +6
    Enhancement Disable(stacks with competence) - Ventilated Bracers +3/+5 also Tinkers Goggles has +5
    Luck +2
    Past Life Artificer +1 to intel based skills stacks up to 3x (completionist has at least 1 here)


    You are missing skill buffs
    GH+4 (self cast)
    Skill Boost(Human versatility-your example is assuming drow with 20 base Int so this wouldnt apply to your example..but if Human +5 is available..) Yeah, went Drow because they have absolute maximum INT, but dropping to Human means we can get 4 more via this boost. Below stuff done on Human thanks to this.
    Bard song
    Light Monk -fire/light/fire +2
    Light Monk Moment of clarity +5
    House D alchemical Intel skill Pot +3 (different than the Intel Alchemical pot and it stacks)

    So if it were possible for a Pure Wizard to disable traps(via epic destinies perhaps) then getting over 80 disable is relatively easily attainable.
    Thank you. Was posting in school and did not remember everything at the time.


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    99 Disable Device?!?




    Yeah, as much as I would LOVE to give all classes 1 skill point per skill at the epic levels, even allowing access to Disable Device alone is enough to make me say NO.

    When you can get a 99 disable device buffed on a pure Wizard thanks to UMD of Find Traps scroll and 5 skill points for epic levels automatically unlocking the skill, then I must say no, there needs to be a different method.



    In any event, the point is clearly made.
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  16. #1016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordax View Post
    Possibly, but the twists of fate will add some additional powers from other destinies which should add some variation. From the mock up it also looks like the destines are like action points, and you probably won't have enough AP to purchase all abilities in the destiny leading to further variation.

    This is true. You'll get to spend a maximum of 24 points in a destiny tree when the tree itself will offer over twice that.
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  17. #1017
    Community Member Dragavon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oikkeps View Post
    I have one TR character who I have gotten to level 14 and I have to say with the huge exp increase from just one TR, it gets boring very quickly to have to power run the same dungeon over and over again.
    If that is how it is to you you are doing it wrong. You can easily cap a 2nd life char without repeating any quests more than once. Run elite streak, then rerun a few selected quests on hard.

    Running the same quest over and over is simply not necessary, if you do that then that is your choice, not something you have to do. Even on a legend character.

  18. #1018

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    Not to say that skill point discussion is important, cause I think Epic skill points need to be carefully thought out, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Habreno View Post
    When you can get a 99 disable device buffed on a pure Wizard thanks to UMD of Find Traps scroll and 5 skill points for epic levels automatically unlocking the skill...
    The wizard rolls 1d20+99 = 101 search.
    The DC 25 box fails to show up.

    The wizard looks at his feats and finds he/she is missing: http://ddowiki.com/page/Trapfinding

    ;;;;;


    Edit: this is incorrect, correction show here:
    http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...postcount=1080

    Regarding whether the clerical scroll of find traps does or does not grant the rogue trapfinding feat in DDO?
    (Very curious because last I recall I thought it did not.)

    Created a half elf ranger 7 with the cleric dilly feat.

    Entered the Graverobber on elite which has a search dc of 21~22
    http://ddowiki.com/page/DDO_informat...he_Graverobber
    (Normal search skills cannot find traps with a search dc over 20.)

    Searched for the trapbox (my characters search skill was +21 to the roll) multiple times and could not find the box.
    Then my character cast the scroll of find traps and searched again, this time easily finding the trapbox.

    Hence the scroll find traps does grant the trapfinding feat.
    Last edited by Silverleafeon; 05-08-2012 at 02:43 PM.

  19. #1019

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emili View Post
    Even with the master craftsmanship on it this simple demon beater may become a ml above 20 as the character level cap increases?

    Min level = (((13 x 2)-1)-2 for master craftmanship) = min level 23
    {And a nice weapon, congratulations!}

  20. #1020
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
    Not to say that skill point discussion is important, cause I think Epic skill points need to be carefully thought out, but...



    The wizard rolls 1d20+99 = 101 search.
    The DC 25 box fails to show up.

    The wizard looks at his feats and finds he/she is missing: http://ddowiki.com/page/Trapfinding
    You forgot about the find traps scroll. Box appears.

    But wiz still cannot disable, unless a destiny allows for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
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