For a long time, TRing was a major focus of this game because we had no legitimate end game. It was better than nothing, but hardly ideal. Lets face it, TRing lets you finish out your toons by rezerging lowbie content. Huh? How/why do you get to be uber by repeatedly killing low level trash?
After reading to within the last last page or two of this thread, I am left awe struck that we are moving to a vast new world of potential in epic levels, and the majority of the discussion is focused on killing lowbie trash (TRing).
MF and his team has gone to significant effort (I'd say an unreasonable effort) to address the concerns of the TR crowd, yet it seems the more concessions they make, the more (that at least some of) the TR crowd cries for even more.
I consider the mixing of the out dated TR system and then new Epic Destiny system to be a mistake.
You should not earn power that is applicable in epic levels by one shotting mobs in Korthos.
Not everyone will want to play epic levels. We know that today, and there is no reason to expect that to change. For those users, TRing and the current completionist feat is their end game. Maintenance of the "TR at level 20" rule enables them to continue their style of play
For the rest of us who wish to be epic, its time to move on past those old paradigms. In the current design, we have Epic Destinies. I believe that we also need an Epic Completionist feat, which would be earned by leveling each Epic Destiny to level 5. Like the old completionist feat, it would need to be reacquired when new Epic Destinies become available.
We should consider allowing people to carry their old TR and completionist feat bonuses into epic levels if they really want to. The price would be opting out of Epic Destinies. I certainly expect that Epic Destinies will be far more powerful than the old TR and completionist feat bonuses, but for some people change is a difficult concept. Its likely that after seeing what they were missing, they would quickly jump on board the new world of DDO.
And now that I think about it, TRs will most often run epic level quests/challenges to get the Heart they need to TR, right? So they're going to be grinding a bit anyways.
RedShirt / Roleplayer of Giant Slayers, Inc. on Thelanis, formerly Tharashk.
Member of the DDO Player Council
Coldin-Artificer; Lynton-Bard; Alydyn-Swashbuckler;
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Note: The math nerd in me says give us a pl feat and 1 pt towards a (xp to 20)/(xp from 20 to 25) point pl buy. So If I TR 5 times at 25 instead of 20 and it took enough extra exp to go to 25 5 times to make up a going to 20 once, when I TR I can choose 2 pls that time.
It wouldn't break the current system, it wouldn't give or take away any advantages/disadvantages, it would just give a reason to take a break at 25 instead of 20.
OR, I had another random thought so editing. Since it might take less coding/workarounds, let players that TR at 25 start at lvl 8 or 10 or whatever makes up the difference on their next life.
The end goal being when I'm done with a TR run, I just want to chill and do stuff, not chill and feel useless because I know I still need X TRs before I can go do the endgame.
Last edited by Tenelai; 05-06-2012 at 10:11 PM.
Super-grateful to the devs? Why?
This is getting more and more ridiculous.
You do realise that if the devs do something bad, then they are suffering from it more than the players, right?
So being "super-grateful" when they do something that is not bad is just silly.
You need all 20 heroic levels because that's what TRing is based around: the heroic levels. You get a bonus feat (the free past life feat) depending on what you were during that heroic life (ie what class was your main class).
However, the epic levels have nothing to do with the TR. What you do in your epic levels has zero bearing on what bonus you get from your TR. I mean, you don't even choose actual class levels. You get generic epic levels.
Combine that with the idea that the devs are allowing TRing to occur at 20, not 25, and we have a further divide between the concepts of heroic levels and epic levels. Then you get bravery bonus not applying to epic XP, nor tomes of learning, and you get an even bigger divide between heroic levels and xp and epic levels and xp. And then TRing increases the needed heroic xp to gain levels, but it won't do that to the needed epic xp to level. So why should a mechanic solely centered around heroic levels and xp in any way, shape, or form affect epic levels and xp?
This is, of course, just using arbitrary mechanics to defend or attack decisions to make arbitrary mechanics.
My main argument is more grounded in actual gameplay and Turbine store sales. IF (and I can't stress that IF enough*) 20s can't do the endgame when the expansion launches, and you need to be 25, then you get a bad tension for the players that they'll choose to either be endgame runners or TRers, but not both (as the current system supports because you can run endgame with a TR toon between TRs as a breather--something most people who TR that I know do). Those who choose to be endgame runners will be less inclined to buy hearts of wood, even to try out new classes or races, because they'll lose all the epic level progress/because the grind back to cap is soooooooo long now (4.3 mil for a legend heroic levels, and then another amount that's at least more than 2 mil).
Those that have TR projects will just not run those projects into the epic levels, and if that's their main or only real toon (I know more than a few players like this), they'll simply not buy epic level content, because they won't run it until they finish all their TRs. And for completionists, that's actually never going to happen (every time a new class appears, they need to TR at least twice more).
If 20s can run all endgame content, this tension goes away for the most part (though you'll still have people who have 5 epic levels not wanting to TR because they won't want to grind back up to 25, since it's going to be well over 6 million xp). But what happens when 20s can no longer do endgame in the future (because the cap is further expanded or new content gets made for 25s only)? Back to that same tension, and probably to a much greater magnitude.
Which again leads to people choosing: TR or Epic. Getting players to divide themselves like this is bad for the game, as it'll be a reduction in both True Hearth sales (the Epic players won't be buying them), and in epic content (the TRs will not be buying it if they don't have alts for running epics). And it could even hurt other sales, like new classes and races, because people at 25 will be less inclined to TR their favorite, epic toon to try that new class or race if it means a much longer grind back to cap.
Like...seriously? Please read the hours of my previous posting for a coherent and straightforward answer to that question.
Hint: It has something to do with BENEFIT you get for leveling from 1-20 repeatedly that you DO NOT get from leveling 21-25 repeatedly. And don't say destiny's, that is NOT a TR related benefit as waterboy very coherently illustrated.
Its a design that would.....GASP.....
What about epic level retention hurts you? You can do everything you want to do AND TR's can do what they want to do as well. Really, this is a simple concept that I'm tired of drilling in. EVERYBODY has to do the grind up to 25 the first time, whether you are a TR'er or not.
The fact is, the TR system was put in as a way to breathe life in the game, and it worked. Saving a spell pen/focus feat was a great benefit, in addition to the possibility of an active past life feat, and lots of us like the way the game works right now.
We're not just talking about power gamers either. We're talking about there being no REASONABLE incentive to grind 21-25 before TRing. Unlocking some epic destinies is fine, but re-leveling 21-25 needs more incentive in order to balance the cost/benefit of the TR and give players who plan builds with one or more TRs a great reason to play 21-25 each life.
What's hard to understand about that? Some very reaonsable suggestions have been posted. It just needs to be, imho, something to counterbalance the time that would go into leveling 21-25. Some reasonable xp bonus for heroic levels in the next life would be ideal, but it doesn't have to be that.
What I am a little fuzzy on is if you have one 'epic ap' pool or if there is a separate one for each destiny.
How does TRs retaining their epic progression hurt anyone? Why would anyone promote this idea?
i wonder how FtP folks' level20wizard/level5commoner toons are shown on the grouping panel. will it clearly show they dont have any Destiny at all (and become auto-decline from many groups) or will it be un-noticeable by LFM host?
Last edited by yk49; 05-06-2012 at 11:26 PM.
My HATE goes UNLIMITED!
DIV on Thelanis
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Hmm... I guess it will help me too... Okay, I'm all for it... Let's only level to 25 once.... TR, hit 20, and we'll be 25 again. (Why does that feel wrong to me? Hope they don't waste too much time on the level 21 and 22 quests since we'll blow right past those and never do them again).What about epic level retention hurts you? You can do everything you want to do AND TR's can do what they want to do as well. Really, this is a simple concept that I'm tired of drilling in. EVERYBODY has to do the grind up to 25 the first time, whether you are a TR'er or not.
They don't want to you to be one and done with the epic levels... They've had great success with the TR model... If you only have to make it to 25 once, then they lose some of the replay value of all the new work they are doing... When they raise the level cap to 30, should levels 21-30 all be done just once?
Where they screwed up is... they should have released the greater tomes of learning at the same time they upped the cap... Basically making levels 1-25 take the same amount of time as levels 1-20 does today. But now we're all used to the super-speedy levels 1-20, and we couldn't stand to have to level through 1-25...
I think their solution was a good compromise... You retain SOMETHING from leveling 21-25, but not EVERYTHING... You can TR at 20 if you want to, you're not forced to do 1-25...
I think they were trying to keep the replayability of levels past 20, while giving us options on what we want to work on...
I understand you don't like the separation between end-game play and TRing. That does make sense to me... But I think saying 21-25 (and someday 21-30) is one and done may not be a great idea either.
I do like the ideas that TRing at 25 instead of 20 should give some kind of extra benefit.
But there's something basic in me that dislikes the idea of us never having to repeat levels 21-25.
Okay slightly offtopic, but will the ML of items be increased to 20+
ie +5 Holy Burst of GEOB currently ML20. After Epic Destinies will be? ML 25?
I like the suggestion much better than 2 + INT. Just looking at bards if they end up needing perform ranks beyond 20th level ranks/bonus then two essentially becomes one. The building process says base six per level but even then it's really only five because of perform rank req's for songs.
That's a bust as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather see skills stop accumulating at 20 and handled thru destinies over 2 + INT tbh.
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