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Thread: Epic Destinies

  1. #921
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    Heh, this goes back to the psychology of it all to begin with. Why do you ever go above level 1 or bother putting gear into your gear slots? You strive for more power, since accelerating your character is the driving force for carrying the tr's, gear grinding, and all the power-related things we do.

    So, you ask me to gain benefits in a manner where I'm less powerful volitionally? When I can gain those same benefits at the peak of my power...chances are I'd preferentially do them as a 25 rather than as anything in between 20 and 25.

    Is it so hard to just incentivize the epic level regrind and be done with this discussion? I'm not asking for a lot here, just a system that is able to reward those that put in the time and effort to enjoy their characters.

    I mean, this is the same EXACT thing as tomes. Look at how happy everyone is now that they don't have to make the choice between TR'ing and losing their tomes. Its entirely analogous man.
    So be clear... Are you asking to do 20-25 once and that's it? Everyone else in this thread think that's the best design? Why do we have to repeat 1-20? If 20-25 is too much grind, why 1-20? Maybe we should just level to 10, and then automatically become 25th level.. Why should we have to repeat levels 11-20?
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  2. #922
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    Hey buddy,

    Yea, I think what you're saying about the holistic view of the epic experience will be true, but only when its all fresh and new. But there will come a time when you are at 25, and you have maxed your destiny's. Then how do you handle TR'ing? Just say screw it, and then do the grind up again? Or would you wish that you had a little bit of encouragement?
    Let's cross that bridge when we come to it. They do plan to continue to add epic destinies...

    And yes, there ARE people who will have them all... Like 0.001% of the gaming population... Not sure we should design around them.
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    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  3. #923
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Something you power-gamers need to consider...

    TRing may not be the end-all to the game anymore...

    Maybe the way to real power is getting to 25, and grinding out epic destinies and twists of fate (and who knows what new items?)

    Seriously, the benefits of TRing past the first 2-3 TRs are very incremental for most builds... Most builds get 90% of the benefits in the first 2-3 TRs.

    Maybe it's time to revisit the cost-benefit ratio of TRing for your build. Maybe your time will be better spend at 25 instead.
    Well, I certainly hope that TRing is not the end-all to the game anymore.

    For a long time, TRing was a major focus of this game because we had no legitimate end game. It was better than nothing, but hardly ideal. Lets face it, TRing lets you finish out your toons by rezerging lowbie content. Huh? How/why do you get to be uber by repeatedly killing low level trash?

    After reading to within the last last page or two of this thread, I am left awe struck that we are moving to a vast new world of potential in epic levels, and the majority of the discussion is focused on killing lowbie trash (TRing).

    MF and his team has gone to significant effort (I'd say an unreasonable effort) to address the concerns of the TR crowd, yet it seems the more concessions they make, the more (that at least some of) the TR crowd cries for even more.

    I consider the mixing of the out dated TR system and then new Epic Destiny system to be a mistake.

    You should not earn power that is applicable in epic levels by one shotting mobs in Korthos.

    Not everyone will want to play epic levels. We know that today, and there is no reason to expect that to change. For those users, TRing and the current completionist feat is their end game. Maintenance of the "TR at level 20" rule enables them to continue their style of play

    For the rest of us who wish to be epic, its time to move on past those old paradigms. In the current design, we have Epic Destinies. I believe that we also need an Epic Completionist feat, which would be earned by leveling each Epic Destiny to level 5. Like the old completionist feat, it would need to be reacquired when new Epic Destinies become available.

    We should consider allowing people to carry their old TR and completionist feat bonuses into epic levels if they really want to. The price would be opting out of Epic Destinies. I certainly expect that Epic Destinies will be far more powerful than the old TR and completionist feat bonuses, but for some people change is a difficult concept. Its likely that after seeing what they were missing, they would quickly jump on board the new world of DDO.

  4. #924
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GermanicusMaximus View Post
    Well, I certainly hope that TRing is not the end-all to the game anymore.

    For a long time, TRing was a major focus of this game because we had no legitimate end game. It was better than nothing, but hardly ideal. Lets face it, TRing lets you finish out your toons by rezerging lowbie content. Huh? How/why do you get to be uber by repeatedly killing low level trash?

    After reading to within the last last page or two of this thread, I am left awe struck that we are moving to a vast new world of potential in epic levels, and the majority of the discussion is focused on killing lowbie trash (TRing).

    MF and his team has gone to significant effort (I'd say an unreasonable effort) to address the concerns of the TR crowd, yet it seems the more concessions they make, the more (that at least some of) the TR crowd cries for even more.

    I consider the mixing of the out dated TR system and then new Epic Destiny system to be a mistake.

    You should not earn power that is applicable in epic levels by one shotting mobs in Korthos.

    Not everyone will want to play epic levels. We know that today, and there is no reason to expect that to change. For those users, TRing and the current completionist feat is their end game. Maintenance of the "TR at level 20" rule enables them to continue their style of play

    For the rest of us who wish to be epic, its time to move on past those old paradigms. In the current design, we have Epic Destinies. I believe that we also need an Epic Completionist feat, which would be earned by leveling each Epic Destiny to level 5. Like the old completionist feat, it would need to be reacquired when new Epic Destinies become available.

    We should consider allowing people to carry their old TR and completionist feat bonuses into epic levels if they really want to. The price would be opting out of Epic Destinies. I certainly expect that Epic Destinies will be far more powerful than the old TR and completionist feat bonuses, but for some people change is a difficult concept. Its likely that after seeing what they were missing, they would quickly jump on board the new world of DDO.
    I agree with everything you said except for the part past the phrase "we have Epic Destinies". The current system as described by the devs levels the playing field for everyone, whether they be a TR, first-timer, pure class or multi-class. 3x stacking passive bonuses, extra build points and completionist are enough already.

    And now that I think about it, TRs will most often run epic level quests/challenges to get the Heart they need to TR, right? So they're going to be grinding a bit anyways.

  5. #925
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrostBeard View Post
    ah thank you, also on #4 that will suck if you make a mistake or change your role from a fighter to a healer, i guess we cant know what the destinies are until they release them, but having no way to reset them means choose wisely and hope none are broken/overpowered because the points you spend are gone forever.
    No no. Not really gone forever. Just means you'll have to regrind up a new destiny. And you'll still have your old progress in the first destiny if you ever decide to switch back. So all you lose is a bit of time if you decide a destiny isn't for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    Gotcha... so like a sense that the carrot isn't at the end anymore where as before at the end you got the feat?

    Alright so let me ask it this way (and don't take this to mean that there are any plans or anything around this).... what would happen if there was a carrot at 25? Does that help or hurt? Obviously we don't wanna take the one at 20 away.
    Well, IMO, and it's only my opinion, but why not let us TR at 25 and take two past life feats or something along those lines? Maybe one past life and one point towards a 3 point past life buy. The actual math doesn't matter, just as long as something is gained from going to 25.

    Note: The math nerd in me says give us a pl feat and 1 pt towards a (xp to 20)/(xp from 20 to 25) point pl buy. So If I TR 5 times at 25 instead of 20 and it took enough extra exp to go to 25 5 times to make up a going to 20 once, when I TR I can choose 2 pls that time.

    It wouldn't break the current system, it wouldn't give or take away any advantages/disadvantages, it would just give a reason to take a break at 25 instead of 20.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    First of all, I just want to say thanks to Durnak, all other TR'ers, and everyone else for remaining civil and constructive in this thread. It truly is something to see such a rapidly growing thread filled with so much intense passion and debate without anyone resorting to, well, undesirable behaviors. (hopefully I didn't just jinx it).

    I want to point out that we gave special consideration to TR's in this design. In no way did we want to have anyone feel like they got a bad deal. Allowing players to TR at level 20 when the level cap was increased was supposed to be a good thing (especially considering the recent heroic-only XP boost). We thought we were providing flexibility.

    That said, this is a complex issue and we certainly don't have any completionists on the dev team so I'm grateful for all of you sharing your perspective.

    So, where does that leave us? It sounds to me like the TR'ing should require players to go through all levels (1-25). That would solve the issues of feeling like 21-25 were unnecessary and there being a level gap between TR's who are 'on break' and fellow capped players.

    What if the TR XP curve for heroic levels was adjusted so that less XP was required through levels, say, 15+ to (somewhat) compensate for the epic levels? This would also help the issue that some have complained about - namely not enough content in these levels for TR'ers. One downside is that the recent heroic XP boost would of course be heroic only.

    Just throwing this out to see what comes back, I am not promising anything.
    I like my idea better (cause it's mine <3) but this would be perfectly awesome as well.

    OR, I had another random thought so editing. Since it might take less coding/workarounds, let players that TR at 25 start at lvl 8 or 10 or whatever makes up the difference on their next life.

    The end goal being when I'm done with a TR run, I just want to chill and do stuff, not chill and feel useless because I know I still need X TRs before I can go do the endgame.
    Last edited by Tenelai; 05-06-2012 at 09:11 PM.

  7. #927
    Community Member Aaxeyu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Exactly... Most of us realize that would have been the logical thing to do and we're super-grateful to the devs that that left the TR at 20 so we don't HAVE TO grind all the way to 25 for each life...

    But that wasn't enough for you... Apparently you want to do levels 21-25 once and that's it. If it's too much work for you, then STOP TRing...

    You can decide that it's too much work for you to TR anymore and STOP as well.
    So if they change it so that you need 5 gazillion exp per level when you TR, will all you have to say be "if you don't like it, don't do it!"?



    Super-grateful to the devs? Why?
    This is getting more and more ridiculous.
    You do realise that if the devs do something bad, then they are suffering from it more than the players, right?
    So being "super-grateful" when they do something that is not bad is just silly.

  8. #928
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    So be clear... Are you asking to do 20-25 once and that's it? Everyone else in this thread think that's the best design? Why do we have to repeat 1-20? If 20-25 is too much grind, why 1-20? Maybe we should just level to 10, and then automatically become 25th level.. Why should we have to repeat levels 11-20?
    Because arbitrary rules are arbitrary...but hey, I'll give it a go around.

    You need all 20 heroic levels because that's what TRing is based around: the heroic levels. You get a bonus feat (the free past life feat) depending on what you were during that heroic life (ie what class was your main class).

    However, the epic levels have nothing to do with the TR. What you do in your epic levels has zero bearing on what bonus you get from your TR. I mean, you don't even choose actual class levels. You get generic epic levels.

    Combine that with the idea that the devs are allowing TRing to occur at 20, not 25, and we have a further divide between the concepts of heroic levels and epic levels. Then you get bravery bonus not applying to epic XP, nor tomes of learning, and you get an even bigger divide between heroic levels and xp and epic levels and xp. And then TRing increases the needed heroic xp to gain levels, but it won't do that to the needed epic xp to level. So why should a mechanic solely centered around heroic levels and xp in any way, shape, or form affect epic levels and xp?

    This is, of course, just using arbitrary mechanics to defend or attack decisions to make arbitrary mechanics.

    My main argument is more grounded in actual gameplay and Turbine store sales. IF (and I can't stress that IF enough*) 20s can't do the endgame when the expansion launches, and you need to be 25, then you get a bad tension for the players that they'll choose to either be endgame runners or TRers, but not both (as the current system supports because you can run endgame with a TR toon between TRs as a breather--something most people who TR that I know do). Those who choose to be endgame runners will be less inclined to buy hearts of wood, even to try out new classes or races, because they'll lose all the epic level progress/because the grind back to cap is soooooooo long now (4.3 mil for a legend heroic levels, and then another amount that's at least more than 2 mil).

    Those that have TR projects will just not run those projects into the epic levels, and if that's their main or only real toon (I know more than a few players like this), they'll simply not buy epic level content, because they won't run it until they finish all their TRs. And for completionists, that's actually never going to happen (every time a new class appears, they need to TR at least twice more).

    If 20s can run all endgame content, this tension goes away for the most part (though you'll still have people who have 5 epic levels not wanting to TR because they won't want to grind back up to 25, since it's going to be well over 6 million xp). But what happens when 20s can no longer do endgame in the future (because the cap is further expanded or new content gets made for 25s only)? Back to that same tension, and probably to a much greater magnitude.

    Which again leads to people choosing: TR or Epic. Getting players to divide themselves like this is bad for the game, as it'll be a reduction in both True Hearth sales (the Epic players won't be buying them), and in epic content (the TRs will not be buying it if they don't have alts for running epics). And it could even hurt other sales, like new classes and races, because people at 25 will be less inclined to TR their favorite, epic toon to try that new class or race if it means a much longer grind back to cap.
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  9. #929
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterboytkd View Post
    Which again leads to people choosing: TR or Epic.
    I got a feeling that TRing for the 12th time for one more +1 to hit or 10 hps might no longer be the focus of the end-game power-gamer.

    This likely to solve itself...
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  10. #930
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    So be clear... Are you asking to do 20-25 once and that's it? Everyone else in this thread think that's the best design? Why do we have to repeat 1-20? If 20-25 is too much grind, why 1-20? Maybe we should just level to 10, and then automatically become 25th level.. Why should we have to repeat levels 11-20?
    I'm not sure if you are legitimately asking this or just semi-trolling.

    Like...seriously? Please read the hours of my previous posting for a coherent and straightforward answer to that question.

    Hint: It has something to do with BENEFIT you get for leveling from 1-20 repeatedly that you DO NOT get from leveling 21-25 repeatedly. And don't say destiny's, that is NOT a TR related benefit as waterboy very coherently illustrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Let's cross that bridge when we come to it. They do plan to continue to add epic destinies...

    And yes, there ARE people who will have them all... Like 0.001% of the gaming population... Not sure we should design around them.
    Why are you assuming that a design that favors the .001% isn't a design that would also favor the rest of the 99%?

    Its a design that would.....GASP.....

    Favor everyone.

    What about epic level retention hurts you? You can do everything you want to do AND TR's can do what they want to do as well. Really, this is a simple concept that I'm tired of drilling in. EVERYBODY has to do the grind up to 25 the first time, whether you are a TR'er or not.
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  11. #931
    Community Member HarveyMilk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    I got a feeling that TRing for the 12th time for one more +1 to hit or 10 hps might no longer be the focus of the end-game power-gamer.

    This likely to solve itself...
    Just because you may not plan to TR again, because you feel that the benefits no longer outweigh the time-sink, doesn't mean that all of us want to accept a system that segregates the players base between Heroic and Epic.

    The fact is, the TR system was put in as a way to breathe life in the game, and it worked. Saving a spell pen/focus feat was a great benefit, in addition to the possibility of an active past life feat, and lots of us like the way the game works right now.

    We're not just talking about power gamers either. We're talking about there being no REASONABLE incentive to grind 21-25 before TRing. Unlocking some epic destinies is fine, but re-leveling 21-25 needs more incentive in order to balance the cost/benefit of the TR and give players who plan builds with one or more TRs a great reason to play 21-25 each life.

    What's hard to understand about that? Some very reaonsable suggestions have been posted. It just needs to be, imho, something to counterbalance the time that would go into leveling 21-25. Some reasonable xp bonus for heroic levels in the next life would be ideal, but it doesn't have to be that.

  12. #932
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrostBeard View Post
    ah thank you, also on #4 that will suck if you make a mistake or change your role from a fighter to a healer, i guess we cant know what the destinies are until they release them, but having no way to reset them means choose wisely and hope none are broken/overpowered because the points you spend are gone forever.
    I think you will be able to reset your epic enhancements, but you can't reset your destinies. Think of the destines as five-level classes that give you certain abiluties at each level as well as an AP at each rank. Each destiny will have a tree with enancements gated by ml and/or by ap spent. Since they said you won't be able to get all enhancements I would think you can reset and respend.

    What I am a little fuzzy on is if you have one 'epic ap' pool or if there is a separate one for each destiny.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    I got a feeling that TRing for the 12th time for one more +1 to hit or 10 hps might no longer be the focus of the end-game power-gamer.

    This likely to solve itself...
    So, if I got this right....

    "Good news, everyone! No one will buy True Hearts of Wood out of the DDO Store anymore!"

    If that came to pass, I have a feeling heads would be rolling out of the systems development department...
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  14. #934
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    What about epic level retention hurts you? You can do everything you want to do AND TR's can do what they want to do as well.
    I was out picking up dinner and thought about posting this, but you beat me to it. For those who don't TR, what reason could they possibly have to promote the idea of TRs losing levels 21-25? If someone does TR, why on earth would they be for losing those levels?

    How does TRs retaining their epic progression hurt anyone? Why would anyone promote this idea?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigo View Post
    The real serious issue about epic destinies is that our epic levels are now seperated from our enhancements and we have to pay for them.

    Consider not having any kind of enhancement for the first 20 levels...that you have to pay for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigo View Post
    My concerns are these:

    Game will become much more resource($)-driven than before. It feels like whoever pays more becomes much much more powerful than the other. Not talking about gearwise.

    We can't level up as fighter/wizard/bard/etc. thats just stupid.
    yea pretty much, but it looks like thats where this whole MMO industry is going, in this 2010's decade... cant complain because DDO couldnt have survived without this kind of eStore deal. i guess this is what defines "MMO experience" today...

    i wonder how FtP folks' level20wizard/level5commoner toons are shown on the grouping panel. will it clearly show they dont have any Destiny at all (and become auto-decline from many groups) or will it be un-noticeable by LFM host?
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  16. #936
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    I'm not sure if you are legitimately asking this or just semi-trolling.

    Like...seriously? Please read the hours of my previous posting for a coherent and straightforward answer to that question.

    Hint: It has something to do with BENEFIT you get for leveling from 1-20 repeatedly that you DO NOT get from leveling 21-25 repeatedly. And don't say destiny's, that is NOT a TR related benefit as waterboy very coherently illustrated.
    Why is destinies not a TR related benefit? Until you get them all, everytime you relevel to 25 you will be getting SOME benefit from the exp you earn.

    What about epic level retention hurts you? You can do everything you want to do AND TR's can do what they want to do as well. Really, this is a simple concept that I'm tired of drilling in. EVERYBODY has to do the grind up to 25 the first time, whether you are a TR'er or not.
    Hmm... I guess it will help me too... Okay, I'm all for it... Let's only level to 25 once.... TR, hit 20, and we'll be 25 again. (Why does that feel wrong to me? Hope they don't waste too much time on the level 21 and 22 quests since we'll blow right past those and never do them again).
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  17. #937
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterboytkd View Post
    I was out picking up dinner and thought about posting this, but you beat me to it. For those who don't TR, what reason could they possibly have to promote the idea of TRs losing levels 21-25? If someone does TR, why on earth would they be for losing those levels?

    How does TRs retaining their epic progression hurt anyone? Why would anyone promote this idea?
    Here's my guess what the devs were thinking...

    They don't want to you to be one and done with the epic levels... They've had great success with the TR model... If you only have to make it to 25 once, then they lose some of the replay value of all the new work they are doing... When they raise the level cap to 30, should levels 21-30 all be done just once?

    Where they screwed up is... they should have released the greater tomes of learning at the same time they upped the cap... Basically making levels 1-25 take the same amount of time as levels 1-20 does today. But now we're all used to the super-speedy levels 1-20, and we couldn't stand to have to level through 1-25...

    I think their solution was a good compromise... You retain SOMETHING from leveling 21-25, but not EVERYTHING... You can TR at 20 if you want to, you're not forced to do 1-25...

    I think they were trying to keep the replayability of levels past 20, while giving us options on what we want to work on...

    I understand you don't like the separation between end-game play and TRing. That does make sense to me... But I think saying 21-25 (and someday 21-30) is one and done may not be a great idea either.

    I do like the ideas that TRing at 25 instead of 20 should give some kind of extra benefit.

    But there's something basic in me that dislikes the idea of us never having to repeat levels 21-25.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
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    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
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  18. #938
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    Okay slightly offtopic, but will the ML of items be increased to 20+

    Crafted items:
    ie +5 Holy Burst of GEOB currently ML20. After Epic Destinies will be? ML 25?
    Leader - Ωmega Syndicate [L41] guild of Khyber|Orien - www.os.rumbaar.net
    Khyber - Eldraine - Monk | Eldaline - Favored Soul | Eldnuker - Sorcerer
    █████ - Eldalorne - Wizard | Elarawr - Fighter | Eldrainge - Ranger/Rogue

  19. #939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumbaar View Post
    Okay slightly offtopic, but will the ML of items be increased to 20+

    Crafted items:
    ie +5 Holy Burst of GEOB currently ML20. After Epic Destinies will be? ML 25?
    total enhancement modifier is 13, so 13x2=26-1=25. yes, that weapon should be ml25 after the expac goes live. unless you put a masterful craftsmanship on it that is.

  20. #940

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    Quote Originally Posted by Voldomar View Post
    Than you have the opposite problem: you're penalizing people who have actually raised int. So no, it doesn't sound good.
    I'm not at the end of the thread yet so unsure if this has been responded to, but this is incorrect. Players who invested in their INT have the ability to choose more trained skills than those who have not so if all trained skills gain a bonus then those extra skills would as well, rewarding having invested in INT for skills.

    I like the suggestion much better than 2 + INT. Just looking at bards if they end up needing perform ranks beyond 20th level ranks/bonus then two essentially becomes one. The building process says base six per level but even then it's really only five because of perform rank req's for songs.

    That's a bust as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather see skills stop accumulating at 20 and handled thru destinies over 2 + INT tbh.

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