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Thread: Epic Destinies

  1. #261

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    Quote Originally Posted by NortheOfThelanis View Post
    I don't know what you mean. They wouldn't be lvl 20. They would be lvl 20, then 21, then 22, then ... 25. So yes, they could do lvl 25 end game content...

    Do you mean the next time that they hit 20 and want to take a TR break? If so, once again, they would be lvl 20, then 21, then 22, then ... 25. Except this time, they would have the advantage that last time they played through 21-25 they got at least 5 lvls of epic destinies (if grinding after hitting 25, more).

    There's a different between lvl between 1-20 repeatedly, without a break, and doing 21-25, enjoying end game content (capping at 25 for awhile), experimenting and leveling more epic destinies, and then deciding you want to go back to doing the 1-20 routine again for awhile.
    So once I hit 20 and want to wait a week to tr and I wanna do endgame stuff with my guild you are saying yes I must level from 21-25 that is where the issue is, either I have to make the full 21-25 grind or I dont really have anything to do with my character for the week. Seems kinda useless to level 21-25 in that week off from tr'ing just to tr again.

    I mean when I take a break from leveling I really don't wanna do more leveling.
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  2. #262
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkindus View Post
    I totally agree with both of you guys.

    Not much to add, but I also wanted to note that with the enhancement changes being delayed until August there arises further frustration. With enhancement changes I'm willing to bet a lot of people will be rethinking their builds. Having to earn back the epic levels after all the cards are finally laid on the table seems a bit lame. In this case I don't think its an issue of challenge.. more so an issue of pointless grind.
    That is a very striking point that I completely forgot about...

    lol- it almost sounds like a good idea to delay my epic xp earnings til after the enhancement revamp, since TR'ing into a different race on someone will almost be inevitable...

    Yea, please keep the epic levels separated from the TR system. Its just....so unnecessary.
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  3. #263
    Community Member Nick_RC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaintDR View Post
    Will completionist have any effect on epic tiers? It seems to me that the grind for the feat is becoming more and more a waste of time.
    Yup! At least make it for free.
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  4. #264
    Community Member Khurse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NortheOfThelanis View Post
    The 'not craptastic' reason is that you get to keep all of your epic destinies progress, in all 10 of the different paths. That is permanent xp. That does NOT exist in the game currently. A TR ALWAYS has to grind 1-20, every single life. If a new class is released, they have to go regrind all 3 lives of that new class, and then once again the life that they desire to 'end' with.

    They are giving us a HUGE benefit now in letting us keep 50 levels worth of xp, permanently, no matter how many times we TR. That is enormous. That makes me able to try out the end game content for awhile and then go back to the TR grind. I do not care that I will have to do 21-25 again because it is exactly what i'm doing every time I do the TR grind, 1-20, from scratch, every time. I don't get to keep my skills, my feats, anything heroic related. They are letting you keep your epic destiny xp. This is a major win, in my book.
    This.

    How someone can't see this as a bonus is beyond me.

    You get to keep the destiny abilities you earn 21-25, and can unlock new ones subsequent lives.

    This is definitely a major win.

  5. #265

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    Well, hold on-

    The epic destiny benefits can be unlocked in a single journey once you are capped at 25.

    Once you TR, your epic destiny's are locked in, which is great. But the subsequent grinds thereafter don't result in any additional benefits, as you physically slave away toward 25 again, now do they?

    I assure you that the majority of the endgame players will have it all unlocked, just as nick mentioned. And then what? We decide to flip through a past life quick and go through 21-25 all over again, this time, with your destiny's there. Now, after some endgame time, you release a new class or I all of a sudden want to get a completionist bcause I'm bored again- and then, AGAIN, need to go through 21-25 with no benefit from the previous 21-25 grind that I did. How is it detrimental to ANYONE or ANYTHING to just let the work you already did kick back in? Why must we grind the epic levels yet again....for what? why?

    You punish us completionists by restricting our flexibility to have to run the druid first, rather than diving into the new stuff. The greater learning tome is irrelevent for epic xp, and on top of this we have multiple characters that would like to take advantage of the tr system and the epic leveling system.

    Furthermore, as nick asked earlier, if epic timers persist as well, then we're gonna be grinding for a while...

    Either keep TR'ing and epic levels SEPARATE- to the full meaning of the word. Or, give us a reason to not feel absolutely craptastic about making a TR decision, knowing that levels 21-25 await us yet again...
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    All I can say is I don't understand your pain. Nobody forces you to be a completionist. I can't understand how you claim to be bored and in the next breath say that having more stuff to do isn't worth the effort.

    but the question about epic quest timers is very good. i hope that goes away.....
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  6. #266

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkonas View Post
    you get to unlock the destinies. how is that a bad thing? i dont get how some of you are missing this? you will be really powerful and earned it. there will be more. there is nothing wrong with the system
    Ok I can see you can unlock these Destinies, will be able to play end game while unlocking these destinies. If not who cares, I wait til my Tring is done to bring the guy all the way up. Like I said this just make sit my toons want to TR at 20 and the toons gtg as my end game guys. I really do read the whole thread p and understand it. I just see alot problems with it. Oh yeah how hard this abilties going to be max out in the end. Can we use this Destinies while doing Heric levels. That would change some of my thoughts on it.

    If level past 20 create more TR power for my next life I could think grind might be worth it.

    Must the people bringing up outcry against this are completionist. Wonder why we the completionist think this bad idea, when we are the ones that grinded more then most.

  7. #267
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    We haven't settled on numbers yet but the epic levels will require a lot more XP than heroic levels. Destiny levels will be somewhat smaller.

    XP from heroic quests will certainly count but won't be the optimal way of advancing due to the delta in XP required to level.
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Correct, and assuming you haven't maxxed out all Epic Destinies, when you re-earn your XP for levels 20+ you're still working towards something new.
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    No I don't. Guess what? The XP you gained from levels 1-20 have to be re-earned too - and if it's your third time around, it's significant. The amount of XP required for levels 21 and up is static.
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    This is also the fundamental point some of us are arguing against. There IS gain in doing the epic levels again because you're ALSO earning Epic Destiny XP, which does gain you abilities.

    Another way to look at it: someone mentioned that they like to 'take a break' from TR'ing when they hit level 20 - presumably doing some other in-game activity for a week or so. Currently in the game, whatever you do for that break period, you're certainly not earning XP. If we added a feature that allowed you to (optionally) not earn any progress at level 20 would that be better?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    You can keep earning XP towards epic destinies even when you hit 25 character XP.
    So here are the issues everyone is having with the idea of having to re-earn levels 21-25 each time you TR:

    • Even with all the XP boosts now present in the game, those last 3 levels or so on a multi-TRed character are quite a grind. Tacking more XP needed onto that seems arduous.
    • Unless something is changing, level 20s will only be able to really compete adequately in existing-style epic content, in groups with other level 20s, since the presumably 21-25 content will be balanced for characters capable of doing things like gaining 50% Dodge and +25% melee damage that can stack many times. That is, not well-balanced for characters taking a short break from a TR cycle at level 20.
    • Additionally, characters at level 25 probably will dramatically overpower those at level 20, which makes finding content for characters at both ends of that spectrum to run together will likely be difficult. Right now there is some divide between characters at 18 and those at 20 that mostly comes down to equipment, and for most roles in DDO, the difference in a fully equipped level 18 character and a maxed-out lvl 20 isn't tremendous, whereas it seems like the difference between someone at level 20 (even on a Completionist with tons of gear) and one at 25 will be rather significant.
    • The "rest" period at level 20, before TRing again, currently means doing endgame stuff to advance your character's ultimate goals, and while some of that will be true still in the sense that playing at level 20 will be earning Epic Destiny XP, it will probably not feel as significant as raiding and running epics does now, where you are spending your time setting up gear for later. You can view this as trading gear for XP, I suppose, but the issue is that if you're just taking a short break from TRing again, you probably are no longer going to be running endgame content.
    • TRing has distinct purposes/benefits for advancing your character: It gives you more build points, a bonus based on your previous life, and access to a feat based on your previous life, in addition to moving you toward Completionist, if that's a goal of yours, whereas TRing once you have epic XP doesn't do anything for your epic career, really. You would still be earning epic XP if you hadn't TRed, and would probably be earning it faster, since you would be running higher level content for longer, since you wouldn't have to be doing stuff more appropriate for a character just back to level 20. Essentially, TRing after you have earned epic XP does nothing except add a chunk of XP to what you need to advance your character after hitting 20 again.

    As for as the XP required...can we get a sense of what that might look like? Are we talking the amount from 19-20 on a first life character? A twice-TRed character? The amount of XP needed to go from 15-20 on a twice-TRed character?
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  8. #268

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khurse View Post
    This.

    How someone can't see this as a bonus is beyond me.

    You get to keep the destiny abilities you earn 21-25, and can unlock new ones subsequent lives.

    This is definitely a major win.
    Not saying that isnt a plus.

    Saying that because we dont agree with something completely different that we don't think this is a good idea is absurd.
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  9. #269
    Community Member BitkaCK2's Avatar
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    Edited. I understand now.

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    Last edited by BitkaCK2; 05-04-2012 at 07:02 PM.
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  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    So once I hit 20 and want to wait a week to tr and I wanna do endgame stuff with my guild you are saying yes I must level from 21-25 that is where the issue is, either I have to make the full 21-25 grind or I dont really have anything to do with my character for the week. Seems kinda useless to level 21-25 in that week off from tr'ing just to tr again.

    I mean when I take a break from leveling I really don't wanna do more leveling.
    Ah, I see what you mean now. 20 isn't end game anymore, and that worries you because now you are doing your break and have to waste another bit of time doing that extra grind up to 25 because your lvl 20 won't be able to play content with your level 25 friends.

    All I can say is you will have a slight edge over others who just reached 20 for the first time, in that you will have your epic destiny xp from previous lives. You won't be able to use it to its fullest until 25, from what i've read, but at least its there.

    I would definitely not turn down them letting me keep my epic levels as well, but accept the compromise that I can keep my epic destinies xp, at least. Having to rerun these levels will also keep lower epic content active, in the event that they give more epic levels in the future (30 cap, perhaps?).

    I do understand your issue now, though.

  11. #271

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxom_Faux View Post
    DOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooM

    All I can say is I don't understand your pain. Nobody forces you to be a completionist. I can't understand how you claim to be bored and in the next breath say that having more stuff to do isn't worth the effort.

    but the question about epic quest timers is very good. i hope that goes away.....
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  12. #272
    Community Member Khurse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    So once I hit 20 and want to wait a week to tr and I wanna do endgame stuff with my guild you are saying yes I must level from 21-25 that is where the issue is, either I have to make the full 21-25 grind or I dont really have anything to do with my character for the week. Seems kinda useless to level 21-25 in that week off from tr'ing just to tr again.

    I mean when I take a break from leveling I really don't wanna do more leveling.

    I assume once I hit 20 I'll start running the usual raids/epics (+ new raids/epics) and gain XP from running EChrono,EDQ/EBOB/whatever. In addition I'll get to unlock epic destinies + keep them next life. Compared to now where I hit 20 and just grind tokens/gear, it doesn't seem like a bad thing.

    I wish they'd been able to include the enhancement respec so I know what I'm getting into for my toons, but this doesn't look bad so far. (Subject to change of course if/when they change it)

  13. #273
    Brand / Commerce Manager Tolero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkindus View Post
    I'm willing to bet a lot of people will be rethinking their builds.
    Build rethinking is inevitable. We are *always* eyeing more races/classes for the game. With the Xpack, even more eminent because there are so many new things at once (druid alone adds untold layers of possibilities). If there were over 40 trillion-billion build combinations for a character before, with the Expansion that number probably now looks like Pi.

  14. #274
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NortheOfThelanis View Post
    The 'not craptastic' reason is that you get to keep all of your epic destinies progress, in all 10 of the different paths. That is permanent xp. That does NOT exist in the game currently. A TR ALWAYS has to grind 1-20, every single life. If a new class is released, they have to go regrind all 3 lives of that new class, and then once again the life that they desire to 'end' with.

    They are giving us a HUGE benefit now in letting us keep 50 levels worth of xp, permanently, no matter how many times we TR. That is enormous. That makes me able to try out the end game content for awhile and then go back to the TR grind. I do not care that I will have to do 21-25 again because it is exactly what i'm doing every time I do the TR grind, 1-20, from scratch, every time. I don't get to keep my skills, my feats, anything heroic related. They are letting you keep your epic destiny xp. This is a major win, in my book.
    OG

    sigh....

    You do realize that, as it stands right now, you can absolutely max out all of your destiny's without any TR'ing. Which means, TR'ing and regrinding 21-25 is just redoing a piece of what you already did, with no benefit for that. You are merely restored to your former power, with an extra past life.

    The fact that we keep these destiny's after releveling is a piece of the puzzle. We should keep ALL of our epic xp progress- not just the destiny portion. Why should we? Because:

    This way we can do Endgame at any point after TR'ing to 20. I can hit level 21 or 22 and decide to flip.

    Completionists have the flexibility to do a little bit of both, instead of being forced to get druid in order to regain their former status.

    We gain no additional benefit outside of destiny retention after doing the third grind up to 25. Even the 2nd grind up, we are still redoing the 21-25 part of it, and that earned us NOTHING, even though the destiny portion stayed.

    Level's 21-25 will not be a trivial overnight task. remember, greater tomes don't affect epic xp. This way, we are not limited in what we can do. We shouldn't feel obligated to get one done and then proceed to the next.
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  15. #275
    Brand / Commerce Manager Tolero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    Which means, TR'ing and regrinding 21-25 is just redoing a piece of what you already did, with no benefit for that.
    Still reviewing the thread, but is this to say you don't want the hit points, skill points, feats from 21 - 25?

  16. #276

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeLoric View Post
    Yes true our concerns aren't valid just because you can't understand them.
    awesome.

    Seriously, I'm not saying it's not valid. I'm sure it's extremely valid to you. Just that I don't see the issue. you tr, you grind back to cap. that's how it's been. Nothing you've said has made any sense to change that or automagically gain an instant 5 levels. why do you deserve something extra special for your voluntary extra effort?

    why is playing 5 more levels of content in a game somehow a job and not fun?
    Last edited by Jaxom_Faux; 05-04-2012 at 06:33 PM.
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  17. #277
    Community Member DemonMage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    Still reviewing the thread, but is this to say you don't want the hit points, skill points, feats from 21 - 25?
    It's not that, his point is that he already got those things, then he TRed and lost them. And unlike TRing at 20 there's no Epic Past Life, so to him any time spent in the expansion is a waste until all his TRing is done.

    But as others have said, there's still incentive in that you get to break up the monotony a bit and you also get to earn epic destiny experience, and there are a lot of trees to unlock. Although you can only have one active, so I can see the point in wanting something more permanent, but Twists of Fate help in that regard.
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  18. #278
    Community Member die's Avatar
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    5 quests? and yes i know there is a out door area all the larger expansions have had a out dorr area and had more than 5 quests?.. so this was really kinda more hype than product?..

    now dont get me wrong i love the game and know they fixed bugs and gave us a new raid and a new enhancment tree but 5 quests i was think along the lines of atlest....9-12
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  19. #279
    Brand / Commerce Manager Tolero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by die View Post
    5 quests? and yes i know there is a out door area all the larger expansions have had a out dorr area and had more than 5 quests?.. so this was really kinda more hype than product?..

    now dont get me wrong i love the game and know they fixed bugs and gave us a new raid and a new enhancment tree but 5 quests i was think along the lines of atlest....9-12

  20. #280

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    Still reviewing the thread, but is this to say you don't want the hit points, skill points, feats from 21 - 25?
    Quote Originally Posted by DemonMage View Post
    It's not that, his point is that he already got those things, then he TRed and lost them. And unlike TRing at 20 there's no Epic Past Life, so to him any time spent in the expansion is a waste until all his TRing is done.

    But as others have said, there's still incentive in that you get to break up the monotony a bit and you also get to earn epic destiny experience, and there are a lot of trees to unlock. Although you can only have one active, so I can see the point in wanting something more permanent, but Twists of Fate help in that regard.
    ^this

    That's a rather snarky comment too Tolero I guess I expected better.
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