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Thread: New PvP System

  1. #61
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    I knew this was going to happen sooner or later. OP posts how they want something new for PVP. People disagree. Attempts to intimidate people who disagree with quoting thread posted by a mod about keeping posts on topic.

    Theres no need to add to the pits. People need to make use of all the PVP features that are present before Turbine should even remotely consider allocating any resources toward any type of PVP feature expansion. Its hilarious when I get called a PVP hater, when I use more of the PVP features than the supporters who try to label me such do, evidenced by their referring to the pits and only the pits when they post about it, most of the time.

    I dont believe in unbalancing PVP more than it already is. All having a system that rewards victors by teams (in this case, ludis in one suggestion, renown in another) would do is further strengthen their advantage in ganking people the next time they want to jump in and kill some time between quests. Im also not for arbitrary buffs that can only be explained with "because we coded it this way." Light DR 45? Because we said so. No other reason. +20 profane AC? Profane is a hilarious adjective to use as a bonus in the first place. Man I got some @#$%ing AC bra. Now what?
    Last edited by Chai; 06-18-2012 at 01:33 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #62
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I knew this was going to happen sooner or later. OP posts how they want something new for PVP. People disagree. Attempts to intimidate people who disagree with quoting thread posted by a mod about keeping posts on topic.

    Theres no need to add to the pits. People need to make use of all the PVP features that are present before Turbine should even remotely consider allocating any resources toward any type of PVP feature expansion. Its hilarious when I get called a PVP hater, when I use more of the PVP features than the supporters who try to label me such do, evidenced by their referring to the pits and only the pits when they post about it, most of the time.

    I dont believe in unbalancing PVP more than it already is. All having a system that rewards victors by teams (in this case, ludis in one suggestion, renown in another) would do is further strengthen their advantage in ganking people the next time they want to jump in and kill some time between quests. Im also not for arbitrary buffs that can only be explained with "because we coded it this way." Light DR 45? Because we said so. No other reason. +20 profane AC? Profane is a hilarious adjective to use as a bonus in the first place. Man I got some @#$%ing AC bra. Now what?
    Some people are very well known for trouncing into PvP threads to proclaim loud and clear how much they dislike PvP without any actual evidence that they've read the OP at all. I'm not interested enough to read through the 4 pages to find out if that was the case this time but I wouldn't be surprised.

    I was surprised to see the horror and outrage about the idea of attaching some guild renown to PvP. We've got guilds being level to 100 solo or by the devs for getting a level 80 guild ship, is guild renown really such a precious commodity that it can't be used in an appropriate fashion like as a reward for PvP matches? It's "Guild Renown" for Pete's sake, the renown of your guild is certainly going to be effected by your contests against other guilds (thematically).

    PvP is difficult to make work in a game like DDO but not impossible. Throw a DotA platform at DDO mechanics and it can work totally fine without any balancing. Add in some clauses like allowing stealth to work and limiting the effectiveness of casters/ranged characters against structures in such a quest and you're pretty much sorted. This is the type of PvP map I'd like to see.

    The OPs main suggestion is a queue and with the addition of a queuing system in U14 it seems a logical suggestion to add a PvP queue in a consequent update. Perhaps U14 is secretly putting into place some mechanics for a future PvP patch? Certainly the new combat system balances PvP somewhat (everyone can hit most of the time against most AC) and so does the spell system change (most people won't have max buffs so will do less burst damage which will be more manageable).

    A successful PvP system in DDO will bring in revenue which will equate to a healthier game for everyone. Turbine is smart enough to keep PvP mechanics discrete so people who aren't interested don't have to engage. Seems simple enough to me.
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  3. #63
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post

    A successful PvP system in DDO will bring in revenue which will equate to a healthier game for everyone. Turbine is smart enough to keep PvP mechanics discrete so people who aren't interested don't have to engage. Seems simple enough to me.
    Part of my dog in this fight is that most people do not even use 100% of what they have. Revenue per person per dev hour is far more efficient catering to those who use 100% of the features of the game they are playing, and to keep them on board, they build more content for those people. Right now, those people are the ones with epic gear in all slots on most toons, not the PVP crowd who neglects 75% of the PVP features in DDO, then asks for more on a regular basis.

    If PVP mechanics were discrete, they wouldnt be in taverns. The parts that are used most would have its own zone load in and general chat for that zone, rather than sharing with the rest of the zone that tavern is in.

    Secondly, renown or something similar for PVP rewards is too exploitable. We know this is something they watch due to the debacle early on in the renown system where people were (some incorrectly) slapped on the wrist for using renown farming exploits. I had one person address this concern by suggesting diminishing returns, but that doesnt work when you are talking about multiple friends on multiple toons on multiple accounts. We have already had someone clearly demonstrate to us that this is currently the best way to farm renown.

    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Some people are very well known for trouncing into PvP threads to proclaim loud and clear how much they dislike PvP without any actual evidence that they've read the OP at all. I'm not interested enough to read through the 4 pages to find out if that was the case this time but I wouldn't be surprised.
    And some people are well known for bantering that disagreement with their suggestion = trolling, which is vastly incorrect. This thread over time has become a perfect example of a few people attempting to defacto moderate a thread through rules lawyering, and the minute the mods posted that people need to stay on topic, I and many others knew that they would attempt to invoke that post the minute they saw disagreement.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  4. #64
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    So.... everyone who wants to buff up their guilds makes ice sorcs and spams spells at their alt account toons?

  5. #65
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delssar View Post
    So.... everyone who wants to buff up their guilds makes ice sorcs and spams spells at their alt account toons?
    What if the renown rewards for PvP were less than what you would get from the same amount of time questing? Let alone the opportunities involved recently in the build your guild event ...

    Even if you could get similar renown in PvP to questing it would still be missing loot/xp which is a much bigger piece of the pie (not many people quest exclusively for renown).
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  6. #66
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    Very true but in all honestly I am in a small guild.

    I PvP very rarely mainly because it bores me even though I more often win than lose, it's just not my thing.

    That said I could easily see me dual boxing with my mule toon and killing it over and over for the renown. Even if it's just 1 renown per win I can make that win happen in about 2 seconds. Give it time to get in and out of a session and I am making about 2-3 renown per minute doing a whole lot of nothing really. I could see potential to abuse that.

    Now if it's say 25 renown per win (especially if guild bonus' count) then I am more than willing to take 2 hours a week and sink it into renown farming.

    My guild is a 7 account semi-casual guild (we probably average 4 hours per day per account) and just cleared level 72, I expect we could hit 80 in about a week if (as a guild) we completely dedicated that week to renown farming via PvP.

    Honestly I think it's a bad idea because of the abuse that could be done.

    Having said that if you want to allow "guild challenges" in PvP and have the winning guild take Renown from the Losing guild ... then cool! I can't see anyone in my guild wanting to really participate but there are PvP guilds out there so let them go at it. Since it's a transfer not net new Renown then no harm no foul.


  7. #67
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    I love pvp don't get me wrong but enjoy it as it no balance required. do you suck? re-roll it's that simple fact: type /who and count how many people are online now go to the pit and count how many people during peak hours are in the pit. if the number of people in the pit is less than everyone online the minority of the population is pvp. just accept it and move on. The only change that needs made is a bigger ledge so people can't jump back up after they fail to adren slay you or shiradi doens't proc and you save kukan do lololol

  8. #68
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    NO to any dev time spent on pvp ever ever

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    Quote Originally Posted by xxHazexx View Post
    My thoughts on a new system, after leaving the game and coming back still thinking that turbine still really has a shiny gem on there hands and developed one of the greatest games to exist the only thing thats truly missing from the game is a good pvp system with the lack of content which i understand is being worked on and i can be patient.

    PvP System
    • Some general thoughts, players of course would have the options to "cue up" for pvp and then for those that choose not to would never have too.

      Incentives: Players that choose to pvp would have the options for added bonus to guild renown, Some sort of leaderboards for the group cue and solo cue, provided daily challenges for the pvp system, medals that you could trade for gear, trade-ins for different weapon skins? ingrediants, anyway you understand what im getting at here.

      Solo or Group
      Players would have the options to cue up solo or group that way the groups can give guilds a chance to stack up renown and a chance to play together towards other guilds.

      Games

      Ship defense: Maybe have sort of a "Battleship" field so to speak when the match starts each ship would hover over the teams base with a ladder and the goal would be to invade each others base and successfully grab a guild flag and carry it back to the opposing teams airship "capture the flag" this would provide a good defense as well as a good offense for the opposing teams so it would be balanced.


      Cover your bases: Players would have the opportunity to have a team death match with other players across the playing field players would have to get past like maybe npc guards as well to invade another base and the player to have survive the longest would have successfully captured the teams base and scored a point.

      Free for all: A good place to relax for any tired of the grind for xp or loots player in ddo, I understand you pain so what a better place to come and unwind? Bring your friends and lets have a massive death match this would also give turbine the ability to work on bigger instances with more players with the new physics engine maybe for say live action events.


    What are your thoughts?

    Just some more food for thought, Omm Nom Nom Nom.
    Yes, dev should improve the pvp system. No, it doesnt mean that DDO should be a pvp focus. I dont know how many people in DDO actually do PVP, but you can be sure that this number would be bigger if we have an actual PVP system. Thumbs up for your post!

  10. #70
    Community Member Sehenry03's Avatar
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    Ok so I don't EVER PvP and I never will. Ever. The game is NOT balanced for it. You get complaints that this class needs to be redone to be better at PvP or this class needs a nerf. The game is designed around coop play and I hope the Dev's keep the focus on the coop game.

    Now having said that...

    I think a PvP pack you pay to get or you get free if you are ViP COULD be a nice addition. The problem is...and you can argue all you want...currently not many people PvP. Few do. Turbine has to decide if they want to put the effort into a cause with few players interested. Well done ideas could garner more interest. Maybe things like:

    The Pit redone into a PvP arena.
    The Vale redone into a CtF or Destroy a Fortress area.
    Shavaroth redone into a PvP battleground.
    Etc.

    The real problem is that the classes will NEVER be balanced for it. They CAN'T be balanced for it unless you want the dev's to spend a significant time doing it and most people want Dev's to focus on the game and not that. Personally the only easy system I see is to simply limit fights to similar classes. I don't care how tough a melee thinks he is. I don't care how outfitted he is or how well built. I see ANY melee on my sorc in an open arena I guarantee you he will be dead before he can do a single point of damage to me. On the flip side Any Ranger/Monkcher/Arty is gonna destroy my sorc before I could even begin to get close enough to cast a spell of ANY kind. Balance. That's the problem. Now in an arena maybe like The Pit then melee's would be far more successful but I would still put the casters at a large advantage. Archers of any kind with decent builds would rule most of these fights. Rangers would be unstoppable I think. Monkchers also.

    And of course this.. personally I find the PvPers in general chat to be obnoxious and rude and half the time I wish a GM would boot them from the game. If they would get over their attitude issues I think a lot of people would have fewer issues with them.

    Mainly though I do think it should be an addon that is purchased with items that are only useable in PvP also something you can purchase from the DDO store.

    This could be another source of revenue if it was done well enough to get people to purchase it. Its just that it would be a large undertaking with a large chance to have very little return because DDO is not...nor has it ever been...a good PvP game.

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  11. #71
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    IMO:

    PVP needs to occur in its own instance, away from the rest of the PVE community. IFF that is done, then I assume the community would be fine with letting the PVP crowd have whatever else it wants.

    An simple way to implement PVP balance would be to create a line of Enhancement Trees whose abilities are only active in PVP instances. You'd spend your AP in the PVP tree of your choice, then on entering a PVP instance/arena your PVE trees are disabled and your PVP tree(s) become active. **good luck Turbine getting this right without breaking a ton of other stuff**

    Another way would be a PVP only server. But then, why not just start from scratch and build a PVP DDO seperate game altogether.

    On a side note, I've recently intro'd my daughter to the game and rolled up a lowbie alt to run with her. Sunday I had the notion of challenging her to a PVP match (not in the Lobster, but the deathmatch kind you can start from the focus orb), just to test out her build and teach her some playstyle tricks. Short story long, it failed to launch. Got error msgs I didn't bother to jot down. If a dev pops in here, I'll be happy to reproduce. (that sounds dirty...)
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  12. #72
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  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    NO to any dev time spent on pvp ever ever
    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    NO to any dev time spent on pvp ever ever
    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    NO to any dev time spent on pvp ever ever
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    NO to any dev time spent on pvp ever ever


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    Founder & Hero cdbd3rd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    ...and...

    **Points LW's attention to the forum header.**

    We're in the protected lands here. Despite the nasty smell of the necro, we still can't nay-say PvP here.
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  15. #75
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    and

    Why?

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  16. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by cdbd3rd View Post
    **Points LW's attention to the forum header.**

    We're in the protected lands here. Despite the nasty smell of the necro, we still can't nay-say PvP here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Why?
    Reasons why PvP would be bad for DDO (just my personal opi. I think there's always room for a discussion of both sides as long as we are respecting each other's opinion cdbd3rd)

    1. Yet another system add-on patched into the game would cause open-season exploitation, and any reward system would be the catalyst.

    2. DDO is clearly built mainly as a PvE game, and the amount of work to build "meaningul PvP" would be percieved by the PvP playerbase as simply an add on and nowhere near as good as a game built from the ground-up for and dedicated to PvP, such as Elder Scrolls Online, DOTA 2, Darkfall, or Wildstar. This would cause a massive backend workload for the forum moderators on these official forums and still color more negativity from those unsatisfied with the results of the Dev's PvP work onto the limited forum population we have now currently (compared to pre-WB forum downgrade), which is negative enough as it is.

    3. The ATTITUDE. I do not want to see my screen filled up with open world kiddie-mobs RARWW-ing and "Wanna PvP??!!" and epeening all over my 26" screen!!!

    4. BALANCE. You think balance is bad now!? Hahahahaha..

    5. I believe this would cause the largest majority of dropped ViP accounts, percentage-wise even worse than MoTU expansion did (asking for that kind of money that many years after launch was just not a bright idea).

    ... There's a bunch more but the bottom line is, so few in the game want PvP its just not worth it. And for the thought of new blood hanging around after a few days/weeks is a pipe dream.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 12-09-2014 at 07:02 AM.


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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Reasons why PvP would be bad for DDO (just my personal opi. I think there's always room for a discussion of both sides as long as we are respecting each other's opinion cdbd3rd)

    1. Yet another system add-on patched into the game would cause open-season exploitation, and any reward system would be the catalyst.

    2. DDO is clearly built mainly as a PvE game, and the amount of work to build "meaningul PvP" would be percieved by the PvP playerbase as simply an add on and nowhere near as good as a game built from the ground-up for and dedicated to PvP, such as Elder Scrolls Online, DOTA 2, Darkfall, or Wildstar. This would cause a massive backend workload for the forum moderators on these official forums and still color more negativity from those unsatisfied with the results of the Dev's PvP work onto the limited forum population we have now currently (compared to pre-WB forum downgrade), which is negative enough as it is.

    3. The ATTITUDE. I do not want to see my screen filled up with open world kiddie-mobs RARWW-ing and "Wanna PvP??!!" and epeening all over my 26" screen!!!

    4. BALANCE. You think balance is bad now!? Hahahahaha..

    5. I believe this would cause the largest majority of dropped ViP accounts, percentage-wise even worse than MoTU expansion did (asking for that kind of money that many years after launch was just not a bright idea).

    ... There's a bunch more but the bottom line is, so few in the game want PvP its just not worth it. And for the thought of new blood hanging around after a few days/weeks is a pipe dream.
    If DDO had a better PvP system that has its own instance, chat channel and its own rewards in a P2P way that makes money for Turbine, the population will increase, content will increase. Heck Turbine would hire MOAR Devs to work on DDO.

    Heck, there are other games out there with PVP such as GW2, WoW, LOTRO, Rift and a lot more sister.


    Also, your(and several by others) posts have been nothing but the overall "I don't like PvP for X reason because of X and it is terrible for the game!"

    Also, Forum population =/= In-Game population, that is the dumbest assumption any person can make in their life time. I've met people who play this game and NEVER posted in the forums because they think its a community full of trolls. (The troll part was not my own words, someone I grouped said that to me when I asked them if they been to the forums at all.)

    Second, how many people, exactly, are in the minority vs majority of the game? Hmmm? You don't know, your taking a blind guess that either has a 40% 60% or 99.9% chance of being wrong on any other random percent. Plus, your opinion isn't backed up by solid facts. Second, the point of this thread is to discuss a NEW PvP SYSTEM and your posts have basically been what Cord specifically said that is not allowed.

    I wanted to post my own take on this idea because I am, by all rights, a PvPer and I believe the current PVP system sucks and needs improvement, because that's what I hate, I hate the CURRENT pvp system, but any NEW pvp system that is better than the one we have now, I'll gladly throw money at Turbine.

    Yes, DDO is based on D&D, but hear this, just because the game is based on other game does not mean it has to be exactly like the original. Why? Copyright issues.

    If I mean any offense, I apologize. However, this is a serious thread about improving a part of DDO, if the devs never wanted PvP, they should have never included it in Beta in the first place.
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  18. #78
    Community Member darkly_dreaming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    But making a PvP pack might be interesting - to once and for all see if PvP is worth the effort.
    Normally I would be totally against any sort of resources going towards PvP other than creating a separate chat channel for the Wayward Lobster; however, go ahead and create a P2P PvP pack and let those who drool all over the idea put their money where their mouth is. If it flies off the shelf (so to speak) and actually creates enough revenue to nullify the original expense and have profit left over, then look at expanding it with further P2P packs.

    Bonus, those who (like me) want nothing to do with it can just not buy the packs and we no longer have to listen to idiots taunting each other in general chat. Win win.
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  19. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyson View Post
    If DDO had a better PvP system that has its own instance, chat channel and its own rewards in a P2P way that makes money for Turbine, the population will increase, content will increase. Heck Turbine would hire MOAR Devs to work on DDO.
    That's called a different world. That's never going to happen. Turbine barely has (many would say does not have) enough time to create content in the game as it is. Adding a new world (if its even possible to with current tech -- dare I say LAG) would require more staff at the very minimum (there've been three layoffs in barely over a year). There is no money to hire more staff, especially to work on something as unpopular as PvP.

    Content would DECREASE as resources would be pulled from the current devs creating PvE content.

    PvP is staying and should be staying exactly as it is. Tavern combat. Period. That's what it was meant to be... and that's exactly what it is. Its not designed to compete with other PvP oriented games. DDO PvP will always suck in the PvP world. The more they built it... the less balanced, the more bugged, the more exploited DDO would become. I respect the fact some REALLY REALLY want open world PvP in DDO, it's just not realistic, and it's just not going to happen.


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  20. #80
    Community Member bennyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    That's called a different world. That's never going to happen. Turbine barely has (many would say does not have) enough time to create content in the game as it is. Adding a new world (if its even possible to with current tech -- dare I say LAG) would require more staff at the very minimum (there've been three layoffs in barely over a year). There is no money to hire more staff, especially to work on something as unpopular as PvP.

    Content would DECREASE as resources would be pulled from the current devs creating PvE content.

    PvP is staying and should be staying exactly as it is. Tavern combat. Period. That's what it was meant to be... and that's exactly what it is. Its not designed to compete with other PvP oriented games. DDO PvP will always suck in the PvP world. The more they built it... the less balanced, the more bugged, the more exploited DDO would become. I respect the fact some REALLY REALLY want open world PvP in DDO, it's just not realistic, and it's just not going to happen.
    Are you a Dev? No, because some day they MIGHT improve PvP. Also, Cordovan said specifically in THIS quote: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...the-PvP-Forums

    "We offer a PvP section of the forum to allow players to discuss the various aspects of PvP they enjoy (or don't enjoy.) Players who utilize the available PvP systems in DDO should be allowed to discuss PvP in this section of the forums. To encourage this discussion, we offer this bit of advice:

    If the topic is about whether PvP in general terms is good, then a player would be keeping in topic by saying they don't like PvP. However, if a player is saying "I have X comment to say about a specific part of the PvP system" that player should not have their thread disrupted by off-topic posts which amount to essentially, "I don't like PvP." A player should be allowed to make suggestions they feel would improve DDO's PvP system without having to deal with off-topic posts as well.

    If your only contribution to PvP threads is that you do not like PvP in DDO, you should not be posting in threads meant to discuss certain aspects of PvP, or threads that suggest improvements to the PvP system. If your goal is to harass those who do utilize this game option, you should not be posting in these threads whatsoever.

    Please allow players who want to discuss PvP in DDO to have a place to do so. Harassing people for liking PvP, or leading threads off-topic by making posts which amount to, "I don't like PvP and don't think it should be in the game" can be an infractable offense.

    Remember to follow the Community Guidelines. Thanks!"

    Bold the important parts that you seem to ignore.

    Before you say anything, the texts that I have bold in the quote clearly states that the Devs are open to ideas that improve PvP whether you like it or not, so stop posting meaningless, worthless opinions about how much you hate PvP on an insightful discussion.
    Last edited by bennyson; 12-09-2014 at 05:25 PM.
    The best techniques are pass on by the survivors

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