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  1. #1
    Community Member Isildur1212's Avatar
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    Question PM, Viable for tanking?

    Ok so I have this idea for a build. A nearly unkillable PM which can also tank in emergencies. I believe that the PM has a lot of potential for tanking for several reasons.

    Basically your looking at four layers of protection:
    -Enemy attacks
    -Layer 1: Blur or displace, stacks with wraith incorp for 75% miss chance
    -Layer 2: Self cast solid fog or cloudkill
    -Layer 3: AC (yeah yeah save your objections, this is my main question but more on this later)
    -Enemy hits
    -Layer 4: 10 dr/- stoneskin, 15% reduction from shield mastery (not sure which one is applied first), epic docent of night boon of undeath (same as stackable dr/8)

    Tanks can have these as well (minus the 25% stackable incorp chance unless dark monk) the difference is that PM's are self sufficient and don't need to rely on others to cast these essential buffs. Also if you add the undead immunities (+ wf immunities if applicable), the PM is virtually immune to everything except maybe earthgrab, drowning (which is strange seeing as you are "dead"), and flesh to stone if not wf. Also add in the death aura which heals you every 2 sec for 30-70 hit points and a PM has the potential to be Unkillable.

    Spellcasting already generates a lot of hate, so potentially you do not have to get high scores of intimidate. Also the Ring of Lies from gianthold has a hidden effect that generates 15% more hate from spellcasting which might help if you need to tank. *Important note: Not looking for a raid or epic tank, leave that to the professionals, main point is that you could tank when no other option is available and to be very survivable.

    Now the AC question mentioned above: How much AC can you realistically get as a WF PM if you take mithral body and use a mithral large shield. I'm looking for anywhere between a 10% - 25% miss chance. Don't need anything crazy, just an extra layer of protection.

    Any critisism is welcome. An answer to the AC question is highly sought for =D

  2. #2
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isildur1212 View Post
    Now the AC question mentioned above: How much AC can you realistically get as a WF PM if you take mithral body and use a mithral large shield. I'm looking for anywhere between a 10% - 25% miss chance. Don't need anything crazy, just an extra layer of protection.

    Any critisism is welcome. An answer to the AC question is highly sought for =D
    that feat you invested on mithral body would be better spent as improved shield mastery.
    The ap required for 0% asf would be better invested as extra toughness.

    You could build for AC, realistically though, you've put all your build points into con / int, all level ups into int.

    i'd look into a skyvault shield or an epic ward of undeath slotted with -15% ASF - playing to your strengths seems a better idea than shoring up a "weakness"

  3. #3
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    PM's tanking is hardly a new concept, I've soloed elite DQ2 on my PM tanking, tanked epic turigulon, elite reaver and the boss at end of Epic Lords of Dust (ottomh).

    This is all on a first life drow palemaster without shield mastery.

    When I TR I'll pick up shield mastery, track down an Anathema ring and look to boost my HP from 530 buffed to ~600 buffed.

    One idea that I've thrown around a few times is getting 30% DR from a mithral tower shield reduced to 0% ASF from elven arcane fluidity IV, greater twilight and 7 fingered gloves. Probably not worth it over having 25% from improved shield mastery and a large shield but it's possible anyway.

    This is my wizard build with some gearsets focused around offensive guard trash debuffing/CC, some tweaks would be made for boss tanking but the general idea is there.
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    Community Member cdr's Avatar
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    Anathema is secret sauce. Can be a pain to find one, though - the few that are pulled, I think a lot just get tossed since they look like junk.

    Any moderately geared PM can tank say, Sully in norm TOD - especially with an Anathema to hold aggro.

  5. #5
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    On AC - it hasn't really been viable to AC tank on an arcane since the cap was 14. Even then it was done by elves in twilight mithril armor, not by WF in mith plating.

    The reason is that the 14 cap was the last time bosses were statted in such a way that you were able to comfortably AC tank them without Combat Expertise. Monk splashes shook this up a bit but now that 5 AC is critical again. (You might get an armored arcane to be unhittable in CR 21 epic challenges, however).

    PMs tank well - very well - when bosses hit for ~80 or less before mitigations. Once they get hit for more than that, the PM really needs to spend a lot of SP on self-heals that are extremely inefficient.
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  6. #6
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    On AC - it hasn't really been viable to AC tank on an arcane since the cap was 14. Even then it was done by elves in twilight mithril armor, not by WF in mith plating.

    The reason is that the 14 cap was the last time bosses were statted in such a way that you were able to comfortably AC tank them without Combat Expertise. Monk splashes shook this up a bit but now that 5 AC is critical again. (You might get an armored arcane to be unhittable in CR 21 epic challenges, however).

    PMs tank well - very well - when bosses hit for ~80 or less before mitigations. Once they get hit for more than that, the PM really needs to spend a lot of SP on self-heals that are extremely inefficient.
    Clerics and wisdom dumped favoured souls should be able to fit harm into their lineup; with the amount of damage mitigation that a PM it is worthwhile to let one tank to minimise resource use.

    No reason not to carry an inflict critical wounds wand on a divine either, simple solution for a lot of PM tanks who can *almost* tank the boss in question (get them from collectible turnins to creepy guy in House J - have to have a PM character to do it though).
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  7. #7

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    I have tanked quite a bit on my pm.

    EDA Bosses.
    EDeeps Demon
    Epic Abishai Devastator
    Epic lailat 6 man and 12 man
    Elite suulu in Tod.

    Countless other things. All with self healing in general maybe someone would use a ring of hatred to top me off if I was falling low.

    I used to use wraith for things like this but now just tank in lich as I have dropped mental toughness. It's all still possible.

    Stacking damage reduction effects is your biggest key.

    Con opp/lich form and demonic shield are three of the biggies, boon to undeath, sheild mastery, cloudkill etc.

    Keeping alive is the easy part keeping aggro can be rough especially on dot prohibitive things. Lightning immune mobs especially are tough if others dont want to wait till you get at least to tier 3.

    Intim can help but some things are just too high for a wiz. Ring of lies has a hidden effect that increases threat with spells that I like.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Truga's Avatar
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    I did tank often on my PM:

    1) Start both death auras. Just in case.
    2) Put on Docent of Defiance.
    3) Put on Lorrik's shield.
    4) Block. 40/- DR.

  9. #9
    Community Member Isildur1212's Avatar
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    do both death aura's stack? or does only the greatest one apply?

    seeing a lot of good suggestions and i have decided to scrap the ac idea,

    Also the undead minions you get are not worth it rite? i feel that putting a lot of useless ap in cold and fire damage is wasted when i only get a cool looking skeleton knight. I personally prefer lightning and force but cant fit it in with all the ap wasted on fire and ice + undead minions

  10. #10
    Community Member Phemt81's Avatar
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    /popcorn
    How to revamp past life reward system <--- working again
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    We absolutely planned for Fighter to still have Haste Boost. It's absolutely a bug. Any similar issues that look "wrong" to any player should be bugged.
    Developers should fix this

  11. #11
    Community Member MattiG's Avatar
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    I noticed an issue in the OP. Afaik, when in lich form, wf PM's can be flesh-to-stoned. However some wf traits are retained, like fortification and water breathing (you fleshy PM's get breath bars underwater?).

    Anyway, yeah... stick with it OP! theres a fairly substantial and specific gear requirement but once it starts to come together, it's quite rewarding.

    You'll make a mental note of 3 kinds of mob group situations. Using the very soloable elite weapons shipment as an example, here are the 3 situations:

    1. Largest group of devils, orthons, and succubi at the end scare you, and you CC them and generally try not to get hit.

    2. More gear aquired, now same group of mobs will heal you if you are shield blocking (DP clickie if u need to)

    3. Bit more gear and now you can go afk with aura on, grab a drink, come back to a full mana bar to more quickly nuke the boss and let wf juggernaut play with green devils.

    personally I won't be taking shield mastery until I TR a few more times and go human, but from what I understand that creates a 4th situation in which youre very very hard to kill.

    Re shields, dont forget -asf can be slotted on any blue slot item. Mine's on env cloak, allowing use of alchemical and other large shields without slots (like lorricks). I'd used skyvault for a long time but switched after making the cloak. Depending on your alchemical preferences, you could add another 2 Con that you can't get anywhere else. Tymn self buffs (with ship and yugo) to 48 con and 48 int (good for 677 hp 44 necro DC and 35 reflex save just with GH). I'm gonna feel squishy until I get to my shield mastery lives though, at least in some situations. Others here could speak more to that than I can though.

    Regarding holding agro, it is doable, but gets increasingly harder with longer fights. I use 75% clickies for any spell I'm going to be casting if I'm trying to hold agro, and ofc eardweller and major/superior lore. all "lesser maximize" charges get used on noxious embers and cove dagger, and the occasional litany clickie when everything is off cool down. With this, and with 10 seconds of guild cooperation, I can hold agro fairly decently on short fights like razor arm (one of the best uses for an arcane tank, and you don't even need to be very tankish). I also dont take empower or use my ring if lies, just to give you an idea of how doable it is if you make the most of what you do have available. That said, I'm never going to take agro from a hate tank that wants it.

    Maybe a wizzy with the two agro pieces and empower can speak to this?
    Last edited by MattiG; 05-04-2012 at 03:33 PM.
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  12. #12
    Community Member Isildur1212's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
    I noticed an issue in the OP. Afaik, when in lich form, wf PM's can be flesh-to-stoned. However some wf traits are retained, like fortification and water breathing (you fleshy PM's get breath bars underwater?).
    Did not know that wf could be turned to stone ty for notifiying me =)

    However there are still some advantages to being wf: The wb and fort are nothing but as wf you get

    -80 hp (40 from toughness enhancements, 20 from Con enhancements, 20 more from +2 con bonus) this is 80 more than an elf/drow with all toughness enhance and about 50-40 more than a human with toughness enhancements

    -As a WF you are not completely helpless when not in undead form, for those nightmare of a quests that every pm dreads (namely rainbow in the dark and other radiance casting mobs), if you are forced to turn off undead form you can heal yourself using reconstruct, as a fleshie I'm not sure you could get umd high enough to cast heal scrolls.

    -You do however lose the ability to use robes like the shround of the abbot but eh you get some you lose some.

    but then again thats just me =D

  13. #13
    Community Member Truga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isildur1212 View Post
    -You do however lose the ability to use robes like the shround of the abbot but eh you get some you lose some.

    but then again thats just me =D
    Docent of Defiance is so ridiculously good when you're getting hit often it's not even funny. I wouldn't say you're losing anything.

    Lorrik's, DP clickies, DoD and you're at 45/- DR. Add con-op, lich HP procs, demonic shield and you're above 50.

  14. #14
    Community Member Isildur1212's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truga View Post
    Docent of Defiance is so ridiculously good when you're getting hit often it's not even funny. I wouldn't say you're losing anything.

    Lorrik's, DP clickies, DoD and you're at 45/- DR. Add con-op, lich HP procs, demonic shield and you're above 50.
    Clear this up for me but how are you getting over 50 dr? If I'm calculating correctly:
    +20 from DoD
    +15 i think from HoX shields like lorriks?
    = only 35 dr if activly blocking

    DP = Divine Power?

  15. #15
    Community Member gerardIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isildur1212 View Post
    Clear this up for me but how are you getting over 50 dr? If I'm calculating correctly:
    +20 from DoD
    +15 i think from HoX shields like lorriks?
    = only 35 dr if activly blocking

    DP = Divine Power?
    When blocking you also get DR from your BAB, so DP helps casters with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Isildur1212 View Post
    do both death aura's stack? or does only the greatest one apply?
    They stack.

  16. #16
    Hero JOTMON's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isildur1212 View Post
    Clear this up for me but how are you getting over 50 dr? If I'm calculating correctly:
    +20 from DoD
    +15 i think from HoX shields like lorriks?
    = only 35 dr if activly blocking

    DP = Divine Power?
    Active Melee DR = (BAB / 2) + 2 + Shield DR rating + Shield Mastery Enhancements
    DP increases BAB to be = to Level

    DR (BAB/with DP= 20/2)+2ActiveBlocking+15HoX=27 +DoD proc(stacking 20)= 47
    The 50+ is theoretical due to getting false life proc from con-op, lich HP procs, demonic shield
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  17. #17
    Community Member Isildur1212's Avatar
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    ahh thanx for clearing that up =)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Isildur1212 View Post
    Clear this up for me but how are you getting over 50 dr?
    DP is divine power.

    Active Blocking (melee) DR = 0.5BaB + 2 + Shield DR.
    Actice Blocking (ranged) DR = 0.5 (melee blocking DR)

    0.5 (20 [assuming DP]) + 2 + 15 = 27.
    +20 Dod = 47 melee DR.

    The rest of the "dr" isn't actually 'real' dr. It's the expected temp-hp return from guard effects expressed as a "dr" value (ie: The temp hp is "healing" that occurs X% of the time, thus it is effectively a form of DR)

    Conc opp hp proc = 1.2 DR each
    Demonic Shield hp proc = 6DR
    Lich Hp proc - I can't remember the proc-rate. So I can't accurately give it a DR value.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isildur1212 View Post
    -Layer 1: Blur or displace, stacks with wraith incorp for 75% miss chance
    -Layer 2: Self cast solid fog or cloudkill
    Blur/Displace doesn't stack with incrop additively. They are treated as 2 separate effects with separate rolls.

    In otherwords, with Displacement there is an 50% chance to hit you and with incorp there is a 75% chance to hit you. Multiple together to give a total chance to hit of 37.5% (or a 63.5% chance to miss).

    Also Blur/Displace are considered concealment effects which is the same as fogs. Concealment effects don't stack or cause multiple rolls. Only the highest is taken. So casting displacement and a fog at the same time offers no advantage (with respect to concealment miss).

    That said, most purple named raid bosses (Arraetrikos, Sulu, and Horoth for example) have true seeing so blur and displacement don't work. Neither do most clouds (although this seems more a bug then by design). Cloudkill though does provide concealment so Cloudkill and incrop will give you a 40% miss chance (1 - (0.8 x 0.75)) against most bosses.

  20. #20
    Community Member Isildur1212's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheep_Stealer View Post
    Blur/Displace doesn't stack with incrop additively. They are treated as 2 separate effects with separate rolls.

    In otherwords, with Displacement there is an 50% chance to hit you and with incorp there is a 75% chance to hit you. Multiple together to give a total chance to hit of 37.5% (or a 63.5% chance to miss).

    Also Blur/Displace are considered concealment effects which is the same as fogs. Concealment effects don't stack or cause multiple rolls. Only the highest is taken. So casting displacement and a fog at the same time offers no advantage (with respect to concealment miss).

    That said, most purple named raid bosses (Arraetrikos, Sulu, and Horoth for example) have true seeing so blur and displacement don't work. Neither do most clouds (although this seems more a bug then by design). Cloudkill though does provide concealment so Cloudkill and incrop will give you a 40% miss chance (1 - (0.8 x 0.75)) against most bosses.
    Incorp and displace stacked on my dark monk but then again 63.5% could feel like 75% so I will think on this

    I know deep fog/Coudkill has a seperate attack roll so :

    If Monster Attacks:
    -It will have an initial 63.5/ 75% chance miss
    -If it the attack gets through than it will encounter another miss chance from the fog since it comes from a different source

    -if it bypasses the fog, only then does it hit.

    I never said that fog will stack, that's why i put it as a separate "layer of defense" in the OP =)

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