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  1. #1
    Community Member Spoonwelder's Avatar
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    Default Taking umbrage with the new sticky

    Cordo,

    As has been said many times in the PVP responses by people dumping on most PVP suggestions.....we (those forum users not in favour of PVP) speak out against PVP for a few reasons:
    1. we don't want valuable development time on an aspect of the game we do not favour - yes this is self serving, but our attraction to DDO is in part its lack of PVP focus
    2. we worry that the game may get rebalanced for PVP to the detriment of the game we enjoy in its current form
    3. we find most of the suggestions are about balancing PVP to help the build of the OP in any particular case and the suggestions normally lean to nerfing other builds abilities. This goes back to point 2 above.
    4. many of us feel the game would be better without the PVP pits at all.


    So handcuffing us from providing a dissenting opinion that expresses not only our dislike of a particular idea but also of any of the points above because they are 'not on topic' feels like Turbine is tacitly agreeing with the PVPers that there should be resources allocated to PVP.

    I hope that isn't the case, but providing a venue for the discussion and then ignoring the venue doesn't seem to be a good social media tactic for an organization. Thus we can only imply that you are listening, and god forbid taking action that could irreparably harm the game the rest of us love to potentially get a few more new players for that PVP niche.

    DDO doesn't have to be everything to everyone....PVP can be one of the things DDO never does.

    Respectfully yours,

    Spoonwelder
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  2. #2
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    I saw the sticky differently. To me, it seems reasonable for the mods to specify that the PvP forum is for discussion of PvP, not for people to simply say (ad nauseum) that they don't like PvP.


    I think if someone said they don't like a particular aspect of PvP, that is what the PvP discussion forum is for. But to simply interrupt numerous PvP-specific discussions to say that you don't like PvP is not helpful, polite, or in keeping with the reason that forum exists in the first place.


    I'm sure if people were interrupting every thread in the Thelanis forum, regardless of what that thread was about, in order to say they played on Thelanis and they don't like it, the mods would post a similar (and just as reasonable) sticky.
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  3. #3
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    Default

    I agree with mobrien316.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonwelder View Post
    Cordo,

    As has been said many times in the PVP responses by people dumping on most PVP suggestions.....we (those forum users not in favour of PVP) speak out against PVP for a few reasons:
    1. we don't want valuable development time on an aspect of the game we do not favour - yes this is self serving, but our attraction to DDO is in part its lack of PVP focus
    2. we worry that the game may get rebalanced for PVP to the detriment of the game we enjoy in its current form
    3. we find most of the suggestions are about balancing PVP to help the build of the OP in any particular case and the suggestions normally lean to nerfing other builds abilities. This goes back to point 2 above.
    4. many of us feel the game would be better without the PVP pits at all.

    I'm not a fan of PVP, but reason #1 is something I take umbrage on.


    I'm not a fan of a lot of things in DDO - crafting and grinding mostly. And probably custom armour kits. But I don't go ragging on every thread out there - "Stop wasting Dev time and make MOAR quests!"



    Personally, I don't see any much difference between those things and PVP - they're fluff and I don't care about them. But that doesn't mean someone else won't, and they have a right to express their opinion on aspects of it etc without being told that their opinions "waste Dev
    time".

    To each of us, any aspect of the game that we don't like or use is a waste of Dev time.
    E.g:
    High end players - "MOAR epics!" aka low level contents are a waste of time.
    Casual/altoholics - "MOAR quests/variety!" aka epics are a waste of time.

    For reason #2, I seriously don't believe the Devs will balance the abilities of PVE around PVP. If anything, we've seen how they tried to balance PVP in a vacuum by nerfing class abilities in PVP, e.g. charming, extra HP, ban certain spells etc.

  4. #4
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    I agree OP. A response of "I don't like feature X and think it is a waste of development resources" is on topic and important when discussing new features or expansions of existing features/systems.

    Otherwise, a system...exactly like pvp...which is utilized by a very small portion of the player base would be expanded without taking into consideration the amount of players who downright dislike it or are indifferent to it beyond that it uses up development times that could be spent on something they actually enjoy in the game.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    My take on it was that if the OP says, "I think X should change to Y so that Z is better in PvP." Our response should not be, "PvP sucks, dont waste time on it devs." Instead, our response should be an actual on topic argument. For example, "Changing X to Y would not make Z better, it would infact alter A to a point that many who enjoy A would not be able to play it, and the loss of A would damage the ability of Y to function in much of the game. This would prevent most from preparing for Z and so they would be unable to enjoy it."

    Cordovan didn't tell us we had to agree with them, he just said our arguments need to be on topic, and gave us guidelines to help with that.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    My take on it was that if the OP says, "I think X should change to Y so that Z is better in PvP." Our response should not be, "PvP sucks, dont waste time on it devs." Instead, our response should be an actual on topic argument. For example, "Changing X to Y would not make Z better, it would infact alter A to a point that many who enjoy A would not be able to play it, and the loss of A would damage the ability of Y to function in much of the game. This would prevent most from preparing for Z and so they would be unable to enjoy it."

    Cordovan didn't tell us we had to agree with them, he just said our arguments need to be on topic, and gave us guidelines to help with that.
    This.

    I had a conversation with Cordovan on this topic earlier today in PMs, and this is basically what I got from the conversation.

    If the topic is about whether or not the game needs more PVP, then "no dont spend time on it" is on topic.

    If the topic is "DOTs should be nerfed in PVP", then plowing into the thread with "do away with PVP altogether" is not on topic.

    It is not a blanket clause for members to ad hoc moderate the threads and tell us what we can and cant say - which is the job of the mods only.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #7
    Community Member Rumbaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonwelder View Post
    1. we don't want valuable development time on an aspect of the game we do not favour - yes this is self serving, but our attraction to DDO is in part its lack of PVP focus
    I don't play a rogue, I don't want Turbine wasting any time developing for Rogues.

    You realize how ridiculous you sound?
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  8. #8
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumbaar View Post
    I don't play a rogue, I don't want Turbine wasting any time developing for Rogues.

    You realize how ridiculous you sound?
    Its not rediculous at all. You may make that statement, but youd be in a severe minority on that opinion, if not alone.

    We can make equally unpopular statements about features we want as well.

    I like games with guns. WOW has guns. DDO should have guns too.

    Does that make wanting PVP development rediculous? The want /dont want analogy is a two way street, and substituting different hyperbolous "wants" and "dont wants" doesnt really make for accurate protrait of the situation.
    Last edited by Chai; 05-02-2012 at 10:49 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #9
    Community Member Plaidpooka's Avatar
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    I have no problem with the new sticky. As others have stated, it seems pretty clear that it simply states that if one's opinion is anti PVP, then don't go into the PVP forums and talk about how you don't like PVP. That's the same as if you go to the Ghallanda forum to talk about how you hate Ghallanda. Specifically going into a forum for PVP players just to hate talk is flaming them. Express your opinions elsewhere in the forum.
    I have no interest in PVP, but I'm not going to go to the PVP forums to talk about why I don't dig it. I'm fine with other people liking PVP. If Turbine gives the PVP players some love, I'm fine with that too. There's plenty of stuff for me to enjoy in the game while completely ignoring PVP and their forum. I certainly feel no need to worry about how other people like to play, or if Turbine is going to expand an area of the game that I ignore anyway. I don't play PVP, so I don't care. I have better things to do with my time that go to an area of the forum to complain about something I don't even play, and I personally think it's bad manners to do so.
    I'm not trying to be rude, that's just one Pook's opinion.

  10. #10
    Community Member SardaofChaos's Avatar
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    The mods are not taking any sides, as evidenced by an infraction I received for playing the only sane man in a recent debacle of pvp bashing just before the thread was locked proving my posts correct. If anything, they are continuing to fight the usual battle of "these are places for discussion, not dictation."

  11. #11
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plaidpooka View Post
    I have no problem with the new sticky. As others have stated, it seems pretty clear that it simply states that if one's opinion is anti PVP, then don't go into the PVP forums and talk about how you don't like PVP. That's the same as if you go to the Ghallanda forum to talk about how you hate Ghallanda. Specifically going into a forum for PVP players just to hate talk is flaming them. Express your opinions elsewhere in the forum.
    I have no interest in PVP, but I'm not going to go to the PVP forums to talk about why I don't dig it. I'm fine with other people liking PVP. If Turbine gives the PVP players some love, I'm fine with that too. There's plenty of stuff for me to enjoy in the game while completely ignoring PVP and their forum. I certainly feel no need to worry about how other people like to play, or if Turbine is going to expand an area of the game that I ignore anyway. I don't play PVP, so I don't care. I have better things to do with my time that go to an area of the forum to complain about something I don't even play, and I personally think it's bad manners to do so.
    I'm not trying to be rude, that's just one Pook's opinion.
    Paying customers have the right to post, and members cant tell eachother where they can and cannot post on the forums. All the sticky is saying is discussion has to remain on topic, thats it. Its not a blanket statement of "if you dont support PVP dont post on that part of the forums".

    Its just as good for the people who dont support a particular feature to post as it is for those who do favor it to post. The company then has an idea of how much support or lack thereof there is for that feature. The issue being addressed is that discussions deteriorate rapidly when the topic is polarized and the two sides start making overly generalized statements rather than staying on topic.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #12
    2014 DDO Players Council Flavilandile's Avatar
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    I suspect that sticky was brought following the last PvP suggestion thread.
    ( and as it wasn't posted in the PVP forum it was fair game to pounce on it politely even with the new rules about PvP )

    It also might have been in the making for a while and Cordo was just waiting the right time to post it... so that it wasn't going to be noticed. ( sorry evil conspiracy theories )

    Anyway.

    I agree with the op in that we should be able to express our point of view regarding PVP.
    Now, following the new rules is going to be interesting, especially when it comes down to telling all those PvP wanabee that DDO is not meant for them.
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  13. #13
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its just as good for the people who dont support a particular feature to post as it is for those who do favor it to post. The company then has an idea of how much support or lack thereof there is for that feature.
    /taps Chai's sig.

    You can't keep pointing to MajMal's implication that less than 5% of the user base is on the forums when it suits you and not apply it here. If MajMal's claim is true, then it would be silly for Turbine to make any major game design decisions based on threads in the forums.

  14. #14
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    I saw the sticky differently. To me, it seems reasonable for the mods to specify that the PvP forum is for discussion of PvP, not for people to simply say (ad nauseum) that they don't like PvP.
    That would imply that responses of

    /signed

    or

    /not signed

    would also be against the rules. No sub region should be subject to different rules other than governing what is "on topic".


    While I understood the spirit of which Cordovon was intending, I fully intend to continue to post as I have been, in very minor support of PvP. There are things I think should be done, but nothing major beyond what was promised.
    Last edited by Missing_Minds; 05-03-2012 at 02:00 PM.

  15. #15
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    There are things I think should be done, but nothing major beyond what was promised.
    I think PvP could be a lot better in this game, but I also think it might require so much effort and work that it would be simpler to implement a new game altogether.

    I think if DDO can 'tickle' the PvP aspect of this game and make it better, great. But the resource requirements it might take to do anything truly meaningful in this regard are probably not worth it.

  16. #16
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I think PvP could be a lot better in this game, but I also think it might require so much effort and work that it would be simpler to implement a new game altogether.

    I think if DDO can 'tickle' the PvP aspect of this game and make it better, great. But the resource requirements it might take to do anything truly meaningful in this regard are probably not worth it.
    My opinions.

    1. Do make the bar pits level gated.
    2. In any PvP, "sneaking" better make us "invisible" like any other mob to us is.
    3. (major one here) Mod 3 we were promised PvP leaderboards. WhereTF are they???

    Bar fight addition suggestion
    Make a "barter box" that runs on gems. You know those worthless things we don't care about in game because they aren't even worth the plat value. Let these boxes spawn mobs in the pvp pits to give us additional things to deal with. Who wouldn't like to spawn in a dragon or something to also have to deal with in PvP? These boxes should not be present in one on one or team challenges, only bar pits.

  17. #17
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    My opinions.

    1. Do make the bar pits level gated.
    2. In any PvP, "sneaking" better make us "invisible" like any other mob to us is.
    3. (major one here) Mod 3 we were promised PvP leaderboards. WhereTF are they???

    Bar fight addition suggestion
    Make a "barter box" that runs on gems. You know those worthless things we don't care about in game because they aren't even worth the plat value. Let these boxes spawn mobs in the pvp pits to give us additional things to deal with. Who wouldn't like to spawn in a dragon or something to also have to deal with in PvP? These boxes should not be present in one on one or team challenges, only bar pits.
    These are great suggestions that wouldn't require much at all to implement (I would think).

  18. #18
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    That would imply that responses of

    /signed

    or

    /not signed

    would also be against the rules. No sub region should be subject to different rules other than governing what is "on topic".


    While I understood the spirit of which Cordovon was intending, I fully intend to continue to post as I have been, in very minor support of PvP. There are things I think should be done, but nothing major beyond what was promised.
    That is hardly the same thing. If someone posts a suggestion or an idea, and other people respond with "signed" or "not signed", it seems reasonable that those responses are on topic.

    If there is a thread on various strategies in PvP, or in perceived inequities in PvP, or anything else to do with PvP, and those threads are interrupted by people ignoring the topic under discussion simply so they can post that they don't like PvP, it seems reasonable that the mods would deem such responses to be "not on topic."

    If a new player posts a thread asking if sorcerers or wizards are easier for an inexperienced player to learn the game with, responses such as "I don't like casters and they should be removed from the game" would not be on topic. It's the same thing with PvP.

    PvP threads asking for input as to whether you enjoy PvP would be soliciting posts such as "I hate PvP and it should be removed from the game." PvP threads asking about strategy or discussing recent situations in the PvP arenas are not soliciting input from people who hate PvP and want it removed from the game, so posts such as that are not on topic.
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  19. #19
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    These are great suggestions that wouldn't require much at all to implement (I would think).
    #3 would take a lot of time even though Tolero has teased us with them for years off and on.

    Also the barterbox I bet would require more coding than we realize. Probably mostly from how many items/trade ins need to be created, but it would make use of current tech that we like.

    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    That is hardly the same thing. If someone posts a suggestion or an idea, and other people respond with "signed" or "not signed", it seems reasonable that those responses are on topic.
    /not signed. don't spend time on PvP.

    See what I mean?

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