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  1. #1
    Community Member Sympl's Avatar
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    Default Elite Streaking Maths

    I've been idly toying around with posting the maths on this one....guess this is as good a time as any.

    First let's pick a quest. Something with a nice high xp take to really show the numbers well. Someone recently mentioned Shadow Crypt and since I love running it. Let's look at closely. First off, let's NOT look at the optional xp for rares. i know it's where a lot of the early rep xp comes from, but the completion bonuses and elite streaks are what we are more concerned with here.

    Shadow Crypt (Base XP as per DDOWiki): Normal/Hard/Elite: 9,820/10,360/10,900

    Traditionally accepted quest grinding model: Normal x8 (down to 50% xp take), Hard, Elite (for first time completion bonuses and no repetition penalties)

    Old First Completion XP Bonuses: 25%/25%/50%

    1.25N+2N+(.9+.8+.7+.6+.5)N = 6.75N
    1.25H
    1.5E

    6.75N+1.25H+1.5E = 6.75(9,820)+1.25(10,360)+1.5(10,900) = 66,291 + 12,950 + 16,350 = 95,591

    Revised Grinding Model with the Elite put first to maintain streak but followed by Normal Runs for Speed:
    **Assuming no xp loss for being overlevel. So pretend you're running the Elite at one under level.
    Elite, Normal x7 (down to 50% xp take), Hard

    New First Completion XP Bonuses: 25%/40%/80%
    Bravery Bonus on Elite: 20%
    Full Elite Streak Bonus: 50%

    2.5E
    1.25N+1N+(.9+.8+.7+.6+.5)N = 5.75N
    1.4H

    2.5E+5.75N+1.4H = 2.5(10,900)+5.75(9,820)+1.4(10,360) = 27,250 + 56,465 + 14,504 = 98,219

    This appears to be a hefty enough increase, 2,628 extra xp and one fewer run....

    ...but let's look at that in context. What if we ran the old model progression with the new completion bonuses?

    6.75N+1.4H+1.8E = 66,285 + 14,504 + 19620 = 100,409

    That's even more XP than running with streak (albeit with one extra run in)!!

    What about if we pulled one run out just to make it a side by side comparison? That would be the .5N run.

    6.25N+1.4H+1.8E = 61375 + 14504 + 19620 = 95,499.

    Less than the streak total, sure, but how much less? 3% If you don't earn MAX ELITE STREAK or BRAVERY BONUS at all. Over the same number of runs....you only miss out on 3% XP.

    The point I'm trying to make here is that if you're going to milk the quests anyways, then streak doesn't really count for a whole lot. If you're only 'once and done' on the Elite streak, then sure you're coming out a good deal ahead, but let's examine that from a different angle.

    Bravery Bonus and Max Elite Streak counts for 70% of the base XP. When it's all said and done, that's not even as much XP as you would pull on one full extra run without them.

    All in all the Elite Streaks add more XP, sure. but not enough to matter, really. The real bonus was the jump in the first time completion bonuses. And that works for everybody every time, no matter what order you run your difficulties in.

  2. #2
    Uber Completionist Lithic's Avatar
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    It's even less of an effect if you consider the optionals in that quest as bravery bonus doesn't affect them, yet they can be a huge % of your XP/min.

    That being said, the point of the bravery streak is that instead of running shadowcrypt 10N, H, E to gain a level, I can do Shadowcrypt E/H/N, then move on to a few other quests once on elite, and still gain my level.

    Does it take longer than farming shadowcrypt? Maybe.
    Does it reduce the grind? Most definately.
    Is it more fun? Oh so much. I start to tear out my hair out these days on the 3rd in a row completion of any quest. Other than ringleader, I don't farm any quest more than E/H/N to get to cap on a TR2+.
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  3. #3
    Community Member brian14's Avatar
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    Except you do not need to run quests 6-8 times (for xp, I am not talking about treasure/ingredients/etc.) until you are level 15 or so. My second-lifer is now level 14; so far there was only one quest she ran 5 times (Diplomatic Impunity), and two quests I ran 4 times -- Forgotten Caverns and Fathom the Depths. Every other quest was three times: H/E/N or E/H/N.

    Moreover, fourth time Forgotten Caverns was farming for soul gems, while fifth time Diplo Impunity was helping someone out to flag. So from xp perspective, there are only two quests so far I ran four times.

    I know this will change soon. Well, that's when I will give up on streaks. But that did not happen at level 9, which is where Shadow Crypt lies.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Sympl's Avatar
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    Oh, I agree entirely. I was posting this mostly for academic purposes. Something to point people to whenever I once again hear that Elite streaks grant SOOOO much more xp. See final paragraph SOOOO much more xp on one run < 2 Runs Without it. I'm just saying that it's not a big deal. If you're going to grind something, you'll grind it. If you're going to 'once and done' quests then congrats, you get a bonus.

  5. #5
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithic View Post
    I start to tear out my hair out these days on the 3rd in a row completion of any quest.
    The time-based irony of this amuses me.

    Other than ringleader, I don't farm any quest more than E/H/N to get to cap on a TR2+.
    I'd love to see your new path.

    Does it still involve parked openers for some of the better / key quests?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sympl View Post
    Oh, I agree entirely. I was posting this mostly for academic purposes. Something to point people to whenever I once again hear that Elite streaks grant SOOOO much more xp. See final paragraph SOOOO much more xp on one run < 2 Runs Without it. I'm just saying that it's not a big deal. If you're going to grind something, you'll grind it. If you're going to 'once and done' quests then congrats, you get a bonus.
    If you're not farming the quest then it is a significant amount of xp. As others have mentioned this is a huge benefit for those who are more worried about xp/quest than xp/min.

    Also one thing I will say about your theory.... A good group will do elite farm and then normal hard rather than Elite, norm farm, hard. This model would provide more xp than the one you're using and in many cases with a good TR group it doesn't take any longer to farm elite than it does to farm norm so you're not losing xp/min either.

    With all of that said, I think that if people would come to the realization, as you have, that sticking to a streak for the sake of keeping the streak going is not going to benefit you in the long run.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sympl View Post
    Bravery Bonus and Max Elite Streak counts for 70% of the base XP. When it's all said and done, that's not even as much XP as you would pull on one full extra run without them.
    That's the reasoning I used to justify giving up elite streaks. They clearly improve your XP/minute ratio but as soon as you include waiting for groups in the equation, as opposed to just time spent in quests, you easily lose more than you gain. This is especially true if you can't open elite (due to not being VIP or third+ life, neither of which factors currently apply in my case) but could be moot if you can both open and solo it or have a static group.

    That's the rationalization. Too bad I'm seemingly too anal-retentive to abide by it: for most of my capped or soon-to-be-capped characters' lives I kept elite streaks and when I didn't find groups I soloed whatever I could without breaking them. I guess seeing numbers as high as 40k for a first elite completion with streak of Coalescence Chamber makes it hard to let go.

    This is a problem since I'd spend more time getting nice XP and less time goofing off otherwise.


    Quote Originally Posted by morticianjohn View Post
    As others have mentioned this is a huge benefit for those who are more worried about xp/quest than xp/min.
    Right, but I wouldn't advise worrying about XP/quest too much either unless some of the aforementioned conditions (being able to open and solo elite or having a static group for that) are met either. That's what I did and subconsciously still do but I try to let go of this hang-up since it seems to mostly lead to procrastinating and indecision.
    Last edited by assimilateur; 05-02-2012 at 02:48 PM.

  8. #8
    Community Member Sympl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morticianjohn View Post
    Also one thing I will say about your theory.... A good group will do elite farm and then normal hard rather than Elite, norm farm, hard. This model would provide more xp than the one you're using and in many cases with a good TR group it doesn't take any longer to farm elite than it does to farm norm so you're not losing xp/min either.
    I also agree with you here, but the reason I didn't include an Elite farm, Hard, Normal example is because that was just as true in the past. A good group in the old days would do an Elite Farm, Hard, Normal. It still provided more XP then as well. It just wasn't the norm. And would have been two more lists of numbers....and honestly? Most of the people complaining/I might point towards this post probably aren't likely to be those Elite farmers like you and I.

  9. #9
    Community Member Sympl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by assimilateur View Post
    That's the rationalization. Too bad I'm seemingly too anal-retentive to abide by it....I guess seeing numbers as high as 40k for a first elite completion with streak of Coalescence Chamber makes it hard to let go.
    Ain't that the truth of it? Half the time my OCD/ADD 'pride of man' *ruh-ruh-ruh* machismo means those big numbers feel good. And that's why I play - to feel good. Heh. But sometimes it's nice to have a reference and some small bit of rationality to retreat to when the time comes to slay the beast within.

    EDIT: On a more serious note, though, rereading this has reminded me....the max XP bonus from an elite streak is all of 5 quests long to build up. (This is more self-cautionary warning than anything else.) If you know a quest you really want to make full streak on....is it all that hard to plan on building back up to it?
    Last edited by Sympl; 05-02-2012 at 02:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sympl View Post
    And that's why I play - to feel good.
    Well yeah, but how good do you feel when you realize how much time you lose goofing off? Let's say I can solo normal and hard in the time it takes me to fill an elite group and then actually run it on elite; in the former case I am not only spared the bother of waiting for people to show up*, I also get two shots at loot in the same time.

    * I'm as patient as the next guy but there are limits. I never actually measured it but sometimes it feels like I spend more time waiting for groups to fill than actually questing. And you can only do slayers for so long.

  11. #11
    The Hatchery whomhead's Avatar
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    While it is true that elite streaking is a relatively small benefit in the grand scheme of things, it is a benefit nonetheless. And it really is not hard to run stuff on elite with a multi-TR, who should by definition be geared and know the quests. Almost every quest up to the level 17 and 18 content can be done on elite solo or with a hireling, so waiting for groups is not an issue.

    Basically I see it as even though streaking isn't a massive benefit, the costs are minimal so any benefit at all is just groovy.

    Also, in my opinion, the challenge of elite coupled with the lack of grind is massively more fun than grinding the same quest 8 to 10 times.

  12. #12
    Community Member nastypeter's Avatar
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    Default just started

    I just started playing a cleric on the orien server is it wise to try for elite streak I have had bad luck joining the LFM's it also won't let me post a thread on the orien guild section.

  13. #13
    Uber Completionist Lithic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    The time-based irony of this amuses me.


    I'd love to see your new path.

    Does it still involve parked openers for some of the better / key quests?
    No openers anymore except for bloody, shadow and cursed crypt. My path is basically "do a round of elite quests at every level, see where you're at, and do a few hard/normals of the better ones if necessary"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sympl View Post
    1.25N+2N+(.9+.8+.7+.6+.5)N = 6.75N
    2N?

    Of the few quests I grind on a TR, the majority I just grind on elite anyway.

  15. #15
    Community Member Sympl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oweieie View Post
    2N?

    Of the few quests I grind on a TR, the majority I just grind on elite anyway.
    1.25N+2N+(.9+.8+.7+.6+.5)N = 6.75N

    As do I, I never mentioned grinding as a TR this originally was intended for the 28-pt build newbie who is frustrated because he can't reliably get streak on his first life non-VIP character without depending on others he may or may not want to depend on...it's meant to show that it is a benefit...but not a life or death issue.

    As for the 2N, I included the xp degradtion in there as well without reporting it...you know, no penalties at all the first 3 times you run a quest...10% increasing penalties thereafter....

    1.25N (first run with bonus) + 2N (second and third runs no bonus) +(.9+.8+.7+.6+.5)N (penalty runs)

  16. #16
    Community Member Arctigis's Avatar
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    I think this actually proves how well BB works. It's not a substitute for the 'old way', but an equivalent with
    less grind.

  17. #17
    The Hatchery Syllph's Avatar
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    Ok a mathematician I am not. I'm sure your numbers are good, so help me out here in simple terms (I'm not trolling here I honestly don't do math well)

    On a TR2 we do the grind grind grind method. Before BB we would do NNN....../H/E and at a certain quest we would be at a certain level. In other words, each life we ran the same quests in the same order without exception. This meant we knew exactly when we hit shadow crypt, for example, when we were done we'd be level 12. (Even with a death here and there and some extra explorers the difference was within 10k. xp)

    Now my question is: you're saying with BB doesn't make a dramatic difference. However, even before the Tomes of learning when we hit Shadow Crypt that first go round, we were already 12 -before- we started farming. Using your math about 100~k ahead of where we normally were.

    Can you explain this? thanks

  18. #18
    Community Member Sympl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syllph View Post
    Now my question is: you're saying with BB doesn't make a dramatic difference. However, even before the Tomes of learning when we hit Shadow Crypt that first go round, we were already 12 -before- we started farming. Using your math about 100~k ahead of where we normally were.

    Can you explain this? thanks
    The dramatic increase of the First time completion bonuses primarily. That's where the real xp gift came from. 25/25/50 into 25/40/80 is huge. And I'm still not saying BB doesn't help. It does. It's extra xp. No matter how you cut it, it's profit, but it's like saying the free thin mint at the end of the meal is the reason you're full and not the free appetizer you got at the beginning of the meal. It's not the end-all-be-all the majority of people want to make it out to be.

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    To the quick leveling, zerg grinder it's not a big deal. To those who prefer to do as little quest repeating as possible, it's a great gift. I'm in the latter group and since bravery bonus, I can much more easily find a reason to run odd quests. They're still not good xp but not so horrible anymore either and favor never hurts. Doing different quests instead of repeating some until I can do them blind increases fun - a far greater gift then saving time to reach 20. I play to have fun. If the way is fun, it doesn't matter how long it is.

  20. #20
    Community Member Sympl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctigis View Post
    I think this actually proves how well BB works. It's not a substitute for the 'old way', but an equivalent with
    less grind.
    Once again. I'm in total agreement. BB works well in eliminating grind. But the point I'm addressing isn't that of experienced players who can solo Elite run the world on first life characters because we know the game well, or the upteenth life TRs (that the mechanic was initially designed for to alleviate grindage as per dev postings), but rather the point I keep occasionally hearing in-game from someone feeling ranty about how streaks are unfair (becuase they don't have access to getting them easy) or make it IMPOSSIBLE to level up. And how disadvantaged they are, woe is me, woe is me.

    I can now point them here. Look, pretty numbers. All is not wrong with the world. Now, just like the options you get in your payment model and in your character creation...you now have arguably comparative ways to make your xp.

    Some people actually enjoy grinding quick and easy quests. Others wouldn't do it if they had to. Welcome to DDO. Know your options. Make your choice. Change your mind. Do something different. I'm not trying to sell a worldview here. I just wanted to post some numbers. Make your own decisions. Personally? Sometimes I grind. Sometimes I streak. Sometimes it varies on my mood and sometimes it varies on what toon I'm on.....I do have one or two shooting for perfect Elite Streaks. I have others that I don't really care if they ever pick one up. I'll run whatever's being run and be fine with it. And sometimes I'll ask to jump from one to another when I see which way the wind is blowing...

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