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  1. #1

    Default Theorybuild - Raiden, The God of Thunder?

    Standard Theorybuild Disclaimer - This is for fun. Level 1 - 20 content only, unlikely to be welcome in Epics unless your Party is desperate for a DoT

    Hmm, ok, so my dreams of a true Fighter/Wizard 'gish' build will forever lay in the bog of eternal stench and gimpyness. But there's been several idea's towards characters build for TRing purposes and well, I'm still impressed with the whole idea of a possible melee Air Savant. There was discussion around the whole idea of using Lightning 2 weapons and Air Savant Awaken Elemental Weakness, a combination I'm still fond of and would love to try.

    So, how about a 'proper' (Stop sniggering back there!) Melee Sorcerer?? Yes, yes, all Mortal Kombat inspired too.

    Right off the bat, there several weaknesses to combat on the build: To Hit is poor with Low BAB, saves are poor, HP is low for a character designed to stand toe to toe with the enemy.

    Then everytime you splash a level, you suck away from casting potential: Caster Level drops, thus reducing damage output. Spell Penetration potential also drops through the floor through lack of feats and Caster Level, and potential Spell DC suffers from non-heightened spells and character stats that are spread out and do not concentrate on the casting stat.

    Soooooo... some of this can be worked around on build, some of this in items, and the rest in ingenuity?

    Intended Playstyle
    What we have here is a character that can spam the Electric spells such as Chain Lightning and SLAS and still melee up close and personal with TWF & Lightning Strike weapons. If we're up against a tough/raid boss, we can go for the Awaken Elemental Weakness/Eladars Surge/Lightning Strike weapons combo.

    Base Character
    Classes: 12 Sorcerer / 6 Fighter / 2 Monk
    Race: Half-Elf

    Stats - 32pt, +2 Tomes
    Str: 16 Base +6 Item +2 Tome +5 Lvl +1 Racial +2 Class +3 Exc. +3 Profane +2 Rage +2 Guild = 42
    Dex: 16 Base +6 Item +2 Tome +2 Guild = 26
    Con: 14 Base +6 Item +2 Tome +2 Rage +2 Guild = 26
    Int: 08 Base +2 Tome = 10
    Wis: 08 Base +6 Item +2 Tome +2 Guild = 16
    Cha: 14 Base +6 Item +2 Tome +1 Racial +3 Class +2 Exc. +2 Guild = 30

    Stats - 34pt, +3 Tomes
    Str: 16 Base +6 Item +3 Tome +5 Lvl +1 Racial +2 Class +2 Exc. +3 Profane +2 Rage +2 Guild = 42
    Dex: 15 Base +7 Item +3 Tome +2 Guild +1 Exc = 28
    Con: 16 Base +7 Item +3 Tome +2 Rage +2 Guild = 30
    Int: 08 Base +2 Tome = 10
    Wis: 08 Base +6 Item +1 Monk +3 Tome +2 Guild = 20
    Cha: 14 Base +6 Item +3 Tome +1 Racial +3 Class +1 Exc. +2 Guild = 30

    Feats
    TWF (Monk Bonus 1)
    Toughness (Monk Bonus 2)
    ITWF (Fighter Bonus 1)
    GTWF (Fighter Bonus 2)
    WF: Slash (Fighter Bonus 3)
    WS: Slash (Fighter Bonus 4)
    1 - Empower
    2 - Maximize
    3 - Extend
    4 - Exotic: Khopesh
    5 - IC: Slash
    6 - Power Attack
    7 - SF: Evocation (Air Savant 2 Pre-Req)
    Dilletante: Favoured Soul/Paladin/Rogue - To Taste - DPS, better Saves or Heal Scrolls? Your choice

    Enhancements
    Human Adaptability 2
    Fighter Strength 2
    Sorcerer Charisma 3
    Sorcerer Air Savant 2
    Storm Manipulation 6 (+45% Damage)
    Charged spellcasting 4 (+7% Crit Chance)
    Deadly Shocks 4 (+105% Crit Damage)
    Fighter Kensai 2
    Fighter Attack Boost 2
    Fighter Critical Accuracy 2
    Kensai Weapon Mastery 1
    Fighter Haste Boost 2
    Human Versatility 2
    Racial Improved Recovery 2
    Racial Toughness 2
    Fighter Toughness 2
    Sorcerer Wand & Scroll Mastery 2

    These are a bit debatable, can spec some enhancements into Fire/Acid for Firewall/Acid Rain if wanted.

    So, onto the bits that need work and watching out for...

    Melee to Hit
    The primary concern for the melee side. if you can't hit, might as well go Sorcerer 20....
    13 Base Attack Bonus
    16 Strength
    05 Magic Weapon
    04 Competence Bonus (Cannith Crafted)
    04 Morale bonus (Greater Heroism)
    01 Weapon Focus
    01 Kensai Specialisation
    -4 TWF Penalty
    -5 Power Attack
    = +35 Attack
    01 Haste Spell
    03 Guild ship Buffs
    = +39 Attack

    That's plenty for Normal to Elite content at 1-20. Turn off Power Attack and equip Improved Destruction, and you can even hit in Epics. Or if you have the FvS Dilletante, chuck yourself a Divine Power Scroll for +7 to hit...

    Hit Points
    Going toe-to-toe on base 4HP per level class doesn't seem too healthy, so here's the possible HP breakdown:
    020 Base
    180 Constitution 28
    048 Sorcerer 12
    060 Fighter 6
    016 Monk 2
    022 Toughness Feat
    020 Racial Toughness 2
    020 Fighter Toughness 2
    045 Greensteel Item
    030 Greater False Life
    020 Toughness Item
    010 Draconic Feat
    = 491

    Thats pretty decent, although just misses the 500HP Melee Benchmark I personally like. Personal displacements will help out a great deal here.

    Saving Throws
    The last major 'melee related' area of concern. Evasion is pointless without the saves behind it:
    04/04/08 Sorcerer 12
    05/02/02 Fighter 6
    03/03/03 Monk 2
    09/08/04 Con 28/Dex 26/Wis 18
    05/10/05 Resistance Item (Infused Chaos Robe FTW!)
    01/01/01 Alchemical Ritual
    02/02/02 Good Luck Item
    = 29/30/25 Saves
    04/04/04 Greater Heroism
    02/02/02 Protection from Evil
    = 35/36/31

    Hey, what the hell? That's pretty impressive for a Sorc/Fighter based Gish. The Infused Chaosrobe really helps out here, which means you can go for FvS Dilletante instead of Paladin. If you really want massive saves, go for the Paladin Dilletante.

    So, thats all the physical elements dealt with, what did taking those 12 Sorcerer Levels give us??

    Spells
    1 Nightshield
    1 Expeditious Retreat
    1 Jump
    1 Tumble (Hey, its my theme build remember? :P)
    2 Electric Loop
    2 Resist Energy
    2 Gust of Wind / Knock
    2 Blur
    3 Haste
    3 Displacement
    3 Lightning Bolt
    3 Heroism / Circle vs. Evil
    4 Solid Fog
    4 Wall of Fire / Acid Rain
    4 DDoor
    5 Eladar's Electric surge
    5 Cyclonic Blast / Ball Lightning
    6 Chain Lightning
    Scrolls: Fire Shield / Teleport / Greater Heroism / True Seeing

    Spell Max Caster Level
    17 Lightning Bolt (Inc. +2 Savant)
    17 Ball Lightning (Inc. +2 Savant)
    20 Chain Lightning (Community Testing seems to show a hard cap)
    22 Eladar's Electric Surge (Inc. +2 Savant)

    Actual Spell Caster Level
    12 Sorcerer level 12
    04 Air Savant 2 - Electric Spells only
    03 Epic Abishai Set - +3 CL on Evocation Spells
    01 Infused Chaosrobe - Lesser Arcane Augmentation 9
    = Caster level 20, 18 with only base Abishai set

    So despite being only base level 12, this is enough to fill out the Caster Level on many of the above spells except Eladar's which is still getting upto CL20.

    Potential Damage: Chain Lightning at CL20
    CL20: 20D3+60 Base Damage = 100 Base Damage Avg +45% Enhancement +60% Epic Magnetism VI (Epic Bracers of Wind) +50% Empower +100% Maximise
    = 100 * (1+0.45+0.60) * (1+1+0.5) = 512.50
    Crit Chance: 7% Enhancement + 12% Superior Lore (Epic Bracers of Wind)
    Crit Damage: +105% Enhancement +50% Superior Lore
    = 512.50 * (1+1.05+0.5) = 1,306 damage on Crit

    Potential Damage: Eladar's Surge at CL20
    CL20: 1D6+20 = 23.5 Base Damage +45% Enhancement +60% Epic Magnetism VI (Epic Bracers of Wind) +50% Empower +100% Maximise
    = 23.5 * (1+0.45+0.60) * (1+1+0.5) * 3 = 360 triple stacked
    = 23.5 * (1+0.45+0.60) * (1+1+0.5) * (1.15) = 414 triple stacked, Elemental Weakness
    Crit Chance: 7% Enhancement + 12% Superior Lore (Epic Bracers of Wind)
    Crit Damage: +105% Enhancement +50% Superior Lore
    = 360 * (1+1.05+0.5) = 918 damage on Crit, triple stacked
    = 360 * (1+1.05+0.5) * (1.15) = 1,055 damage on Crit, triple stacked, Elemental Weakness

    And I just noticed I didn't take a Clicky or the Chaosrobe's occasional 75% Boost into account there either.

    Wow, not bad.

    Spell Points
    870 Sorcerer 12
    210 Charisma 30
    040 Energy of the Dragon 2
    200 Archmagi
    050 Elemental Spell Power
    100 Grt. Elemental Spell Power
    210 Sorcerer 12 Item bonus
    -60 Power Drain
    = 1,620 SP

    Thats a bit light considering the Max/Empowered spell damage above, but its workable. Torc/ConOpp & Mysterious Bauble look like wants :/


    So, whats your own thoughts on this build/idea?
    Last edited by Arlathen; 05-05-2012 at 02:49 AM.
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  2. #2

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    PS: The potential for in group "Im going to touch you with my shocking finger" Jokes is unbelievable.
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  3. #3
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Have you considered tossing a feat towards SD qualification and going that route instead of Kensai?
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Have you considered tossing a feat towards SD qualification and going that route instead of Kensai?
    *Raises eyebrows in surpise* No, I hadn't to be perfectly honest. I concentrated on the Kensai focus when I realised I could get away with 12 Sorc, crowbar 6 Fighter in *and* still get evasion from 2 Monk. I also rather like Kensai for the 6 Haste Boosts, and base +2 To Hit/+4 Damage/+2 Seeker Damage that you get from the required feats and Prestige enhancement.

    It would be a interesting alternative: Drop Ex: Khopesh & OTWF, Pick up Shield Mastery & perhaps Ex: B.Sword or Dwarf Axe and all of a sudden you've got quite a tanky setup if you swap the TWF feats for THF feats. You could even *gulp* go for Intimidate with the listed 30 Charisma.

    I think I still prefer the Kensai option personally, but hey there's some options there.
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  5. #5
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    I'd probably drop OTWF and put in maybe one feat towards qualification - keep Khopesh.

    Anyway, something to consider if you find yourself needing HP, etc.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  6. #6

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    Less than a day old and build updated - Missed off SF: Evocation for Air Savant Pre-Reqs.

    Updated a few numbers on a second read through.
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  7. #7
    Founder Xyfiel's Avatar
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    I have a somewhat similiar twf gish, 12wizard(wraith)/6fighter(SD)/2monk. Not currently grinding his epics yet, but final will be gtwf with Epic Chimeras Fangs, has shield mastery for tanking, dragonmark of storm, and tons of palemaster defensive gear.

    Recommend dropping khopesh, imp crit, and one more feat for Dragonmark of storm feats. Use 2 Chimera Fangs for higher to hit(+8 weapons with marks and constant destruction), free weapon prof, good damage, and +4 insight to saves. Option of using Chimeras Crown for Spell resistance, more Marks, 20 hps, and slots. You would need 6 aps to get extra mark III. Marks are sporadic, but add a good deal of dps on a elec specced char, especially if you have good cha.

    Edit: Nevermind, they would have to fix the air savant and dragonmark bug first. Bah will leave it as an idea to ponder when its fixed.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    Edit: Nevermind, they would have to fix the air savant and dragonmark bug first. Bah will leave it as an idea to ponder when its fixed.
    Spot on. Air Savant & Dragonmarks are borked at present, and the +4CL Increase from Air savant is key in making the Spell Casting viable on a 12 Caster platform. Other reasons for not going for the DMs include I have a Ranger build that uses the DMs already (and I love it! see the Stormbringer build here), and also that there's a rumour going around that DMs may get dropped to a single Feat requirement with enhancement options in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    I have a somewhat similiar twf gish, 12wizard(wraith)/6fighter(SD)/2monk. Not currently grinding his epics yet, but final will be gtwf with Epic Chimeras Fangs, has shield mastery for tanking, dragonmark of storm, and tons of palemaster defensive gear.

    Recommend dropping khopesh, imp crit, and one more feat for Dragonmark of storm feats. Use 2 Chimera Fangs for higher to hit(+8 weapons with marks and constant destruction), free weapon prof, good damage, and +4 insight to saves. Option of using Chimeras Crown for Spell resistance, more Marks, 20 hps, and slots. You would need 6 aps to get extra mark III. Marks are sporadic, but add a good deal of dps on a elec specced char, especially if you have good cha.
    Despite the above bugs and upcoming changes, these are really good suggestions. *IF* I was wanting to play a Tank Caster - Still, would make for an alternative viable build.

    However, part of the build synergy lies in using Lightning Strike weapons with the Air Savant's Awaken Elemental Weakness for more damage output on Raid bosses and the like, while keeping the DoT running & stacked.

    There's also the slight problem in that I'd be limited to Epic Chimera's Fangs only by dropping the feats you mentioned for the necessary DMs. I can see potential play in Epic quests by utilising Epic Khopeshes of Water with there Improved Paralysing - in fact, I think there's an alternative Water Savant build in there with Otiluke's/Niacs Biting Cold, although I think I'd prefer the Chain Lightning & Ball Lightning AoE DPS of the Air savant.
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  9. #9
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    If u want do this build for fun +39 to hit is to low, u need quiken feat if go in melee, u can use Epic Kron'zek's Cruelty for have +2 feat (IC, Khopesh)
    Last edited by Zio_Kose; 05-04-2012 at 07:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    Standard Theorybuild Disclaimer - This is for fun. Level 1 - 20 content only, unlikely to be welcome in Epics unless your Party is desperate for a DoT
    Quote Originally Posted by Zio_Kose View Post
    I dont undestand what Pro have this build compared to a Sorc 20...
    This is exactly why this build is in the multi-class sub-forum, and not the Spellcaster sub-forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zio_Kose View Post
    A pure sorcerer makes a lot more damage, if u want evasion 18/2 is the way, but melee low your power.
    Look at the numbers I've already posted. A Sorc 20 Air Savant 3 would get Max CL+2 on some spells, and so would gain around 10%-15% additional damage inc Capstone. The only limit to this build is the actual spell points available - but hey didn't I already say I'm going to be Melee as well with Torc & ConOpp items? Where as this build is also doing melee damage output between DoTs - full TWF with Lit2 weapons and Kensai 1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zio_Kose View Post
    PS. +39 to hit is to low...
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    That's plenty for Normal to Elite content at 1-20. Turn off Power Attack and equip Improved Destruction, and you can even hit in Epics. Or if you have the FvS Dilletante, chuck yourself a Divine Power Scroll for +7 to hit...
    Quoted as I'm not repeating myself again.

    PS: Pure sorcs, or any pure Arcane, are utterly boring to play. To me.
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  11. #11
    Community Member BDS's Avatar
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    I have a similar build I made for fun. However I went 13 sorc, 6 monk, 1 fighter. The 6 monk allows me to do the static charge monk curse as well as the electric deficiency. Took Ninja Spy 1 as well so I could go incorp as well a use lit2 shortswords to stay in stance.

    While it is a fun build it isnt something I run on a regular basis and I don't take it into epics.
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    WoW Great!
    Last edited by Zio_Kose; 05-04-2012 at 07:25 AM.

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    Founder Xyfiel's Avatar
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    Zio Kose why argue about things the build isn't going to be doing. It is irrelevant and trolling.

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    Post edited i love this build....

  15. #15
    Community Member Sirgleno's Avatar
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    Love the theme, and the build looks well reasoned. Nice job.
    Dystopia Starchucker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirgleno View Post
    Love the theme, and the build looks well reasoned. Nice job.
    Cheers

    Currently throwing a TR through a life to see how it works out for real. Will leave the thread for now and post back once I'm 20.
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BDS View Post
    I have a similar build I made for fun. However I went 13 sorc, 6 monk, 1 fighter. The 6 monk allows me to do the static charge monk curse as well as the electric deficiency. Took Ninja Spy 1 as well so I could go incorp as well a use lit2 shortswords to stay in stance.

    While it is a fun build it isnt something I run on a regular basis and I don't take it into epics.
    Nice variation - especially when sticking to fists, alleviates all the TWF To-Hit penalties.
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  18. #18
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    Neat ideas. One that I didn't see mentioned is going the WF Tukaw route: 16 sorc, 2 paladin (for early LOH, bonus to saves, same BAB and hp as fighter though with fewer feats) and 2 rogue (for weak evasion, UMD and light trapping), using THF. No reason it couldn't be an air savant. You would find THF easier on your stats, and it matters less if you don't have the full THF line than if you don't have the whole TWF line (plus, as a WF, you're self-healing, and get racial enhancements to THF). Tukaws seem to use greatswords a lot (SOS and Terror, I guess), but a LitII falchion would crit like mad.

    Food for thought, anyway!

  19. #19
    Community Member whereispowderedsilve's Avatar
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    Default Looks cool Arl! Thinking of rolling one up on Orien!

    Looks cool Arl! Thinking of rolling one up on Orien!

    Can I make it work without the +2 tomes(what if anything would you change feat or

    enhancement wise then?) & if your in a good mood what's the class

    progression & the skill point distribution pretty please! :P! !

    Super appreciated! Thanks very much in advance!
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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by whereispowderedsilve View Post
    Looks cool Arl! Thinking of rolling one up on Orien!

    Can I make it work without the +2 tomes(what if anything would you change feat or

    enhancement wise then?) & if your in a good mood what's the class

    progression & the skill point distribution pretty please! :P! !

    Super appreciated! Thanks very much in advance!
    Apologies for the delay in replying - I've been busy actually playing my TR'd toon on this build testing it out, and so far its been a great deal of fun

    Onto your questions:

    1. Lack of tomes

    To be honest, if you have 32pt builds and go with the suggested stat layout (16 Dex starting) for a 1st life character, then the only necessary tome is a +1 Dex tome to qualify for ITWF and GTWF which require Dex 17. On Ghallanda such a tome would fetch about 25K on the AH, so cheap enough. You can worry about getting the rest of the tomes later on.

    That said, the tomes in the buidl are all highly desirable. They all gives those key extra points for the build to hit its potential - +2 Strength giving an additional +1 to Hit/+1 Damage, +2 Con giving another 20HP, +2 Dex giving another key +1 Reflex save etc etc etc.

    2. Level Progression

    My designed level progression is as follows:

    1. Monk - TWF, Power Attack, FvS Dilletante
    2. Monk - Toughness
    3. Sorcerer - Empower
    4. Sorcerer
    5. Sorcerer
    6. Sorcerer - Extend
    7. Sorcerer
    8. Sorcerer - Air Savant 1
    9. Fighter - Exotic: Khopesh, WF: Slash
    10. Fighter - ITWF
    11. Sorcerer
    12. Sorcerer - Maximise
    13. Sorcerer
    14. Sorcerer
    15. Sorcerer - SF: Evocation
    16. Sorcerer - Air Savant 2
    17. Fighter
    18. Fighter - IC: Slash, GTWF
    19. Fighter
    20. Fighter - WS: Slash, Kensai 1

    The intention is this design is to use Hand-wraps for melee upto mid levels when you get ITWF (and Greensteel for a TR) available, then swap to Khopesh.

    3. Skill Points

    Really, the only skill you need/want to maximise is Concentration. Everything else is to taste. You can buff Jump with the spell, so need need to really go overboard here. UMD and Balance are good alternatives - its upto you.

    4. Epic Levels

    Just thought I'd comment on potential Epic Levels with the released information in the Public 'Epic Destinies' thread. There are two key pointers that you can take away from the thread:

    a) Over the course of those 5 levels your BAB is increased by a further three points.
    b) You gain an additional 2 feat slots.

    This means that both OTWF and Quicken can be fit into the build, gaining another +5 overall To Hit and also spells that cannot be interrupted when fighting in melee distance.
    Last edited by Arlathen; 05-12-2012 at 08:28 AM.
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

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