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  1. #81
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WruntJunior View Post
    I'm sorry, this is horribly wrong. Some of the best fun in the game is running headfirst into new content on its hardest difficulty.
    No, I'm sorry, THIS ^^ is horribly wrong. If you are both unfamiliar with the game and the content, running through it on elite is a recipe for making you quit.

    Context is everything. I realize that elite new content for some people is trivial. That is due to powergaming combined with power creep. I am completely unsurpised that decked-out epic-geared "toons" played by longtime players might find Epic Servants of the Overlord fun to run through as a first-time attempt.

    No challenge, no fun.

  2. #82
    Community Member ThePrincipal's Avatar
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    It's not so much a bravery bonus as it is a coward's penalty.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    That is what it does. It's point is to separate. It is obvious.

    What most of the people in this thread don't get (probably because most are exactly the type of player that is being filtered from new player groups), is that their presence in a group is detrimental to the health of the game.

    If you are playing through unfamiliar content on elite the first time (something I've NEVER done myself), you are not in this game to enjoy it. It's a job, and so NOTHING Turbine does will make you like your "job" short of giving you xp for nothing.
    I'll have to disagree. I found playing, not all successfully I may add, the newest quest chain first time elite to be rather enjoyable and nothing like any job I've ever had (I wish I could get paid for doing that actually). But then those are level 16 quests (18 on elite) so it's not like there are any brand new players running them anyway. I would hope most would have a working knowledge of the game controls and UI as well as a good enough idea of the capabilities of their character by that level to make an informed decision as to whether they they want to try them on elite.

    Personally, I think those who are unwilling to play content the first time on elite are taking the game as seriously as a job in their unwillingness to chance failure despite the meager cost it has. At least after the get the basic mechanics figured out (which is a lot quicker if they aren't segregated from those who can explain them as the game itself does a pretty poor job of that).

  4. #84
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    Thumbs up good discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Magusrex777 View Post
    Why was the elite streak put in?
    Yes, it was put into to reduce TR grinds. We'll see about epic xp grinds. I would hazard a guess that Forgotten Realms content also had a huge impact in its implementation. The devs had FR on their agenda for a long time, but, having no FR under level 16 is a big negative for the new players they hope to bring in. So, what to do? Introduce mechanisms designed to make new players feel like they could 'quickly' get to Forgotten Realms content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The DEVs have stated elite doesnt scale while normal and hard does. If elite IS scaling its not WAI. The answer is to make elite not scale at all. This encourages group play.
    Didn't MadFloyd also say recently that scaling is not WAI and is being revisited? Particulalry that soloing should no tbe easier than 6 manning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magusrex777 View Post
    *snip*
    Generally, I agree with you. I think DDO is a very difficult game to learn, let alone master. I think many vets forget the learning curve, especially if you are not someone with 10 hours a day to play. That being said streaks are good for many players and I benefit from them at times as well.

    The big issue with streaks is that new players are often not confident enough to post lfms, let alone post for normal. I rarely see vets post 'normal' runs. When I have over the past several months, I do not fill. So new players learn the game soloing or 'tagging along' on Hard and Elite. Both methods often = bad habits and wrong presumptions. So, then you get PUGs running Hard or Elite when they should not. And thus, they try to do what worked on solo or what that 'good' leader they followed in their last run did - zerg. There is an equation for this, Zerg x Elite = Soulstone (or Z x E = S ).

    I think the game needs streaks but I think it needs to make it more palatable and less "noxious' for players to use the training wheels when they need to and to give vets an incentive to 'slum' on normal without huge consequences to their streaks.
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    No, I'm sorry, THIS ^^ is horribly wrong. If you are both unfamiliar with the game and the content, running through it on elite is a recipe for making you quit.

    Context is everything. I realize that elite new content for some people is trivial. That is due to powergaming combined with power creep. I am completely unsurpised that decked-out epic-geared "toons" played by longtime players might find Epic Servants of the Overlord fun to run through as a first-time attempt.

    No challenge, no fun.
    Strange, I have no epic gear, no raid gear, no greensteel though I do have a bit of level 50ish canneth crafted gear and 2 of my characters are 32 pointers. So, unless you mean has a very good understanding of what does and doesn't work for one's characters as powergaming, I don't see where you are coming from.

    Also, if someone is still unfamiliar with the game by the time they are at a reasonable level to attempt elite level 16 quests, I don't know what to say. What were they doing in those level 6-12 quests that introduce most of the games advanced concepts?

  6. #86
    Community Member Niv-mizzet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    No, I'm sorry, THIS ^^ is horribly wrong. If you are both unfamiliar with the game and the content, running through it on elite is a recipe for making you quit..
    I respectfully disagree with his opinion being wrong. YOU may find the combination of unfamiliarity and difficulty to be a recipe for making one quit...

    I, however, play DDO for exactly those times. Strategy and memory can handle all of that stuff that you have run through 10 times already, but I always look forward to the moment when you have to fall back on skill to bring you over the top in an unexpected situation.

    For example, my favorite ToD raid was the one where I learned that I was sturdy enough to tank suulo as a sorcerer. (I didn't realize he hit so soft ) ..and I learned because, well, we didn't really have a choice.

  7. #87
    Community Member DeafeningWhisper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    Just a little hint, in the grown-up world, most everything doesn't get done unless there are 2 or 3 good reasons to do it. This is one of those occasions.
    Actually things don't get done until someone sees a way to somehow profit from it, Turbine is potentialy loosing money, things won't stay as is for too long mark my words.
    "Pike or do not. There is no lag."

  8. #88
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Basic concepts about rewards...

    • Doing something more should not penalize you later.
    • They should always be tailored to reward desired behavior.
    • Things which are more difficult or complicated should grant greater rewards.
    • Rewards should not discourage doing complicated or more difficult things.
    The bravery bonus was not well designed.

    It had a basic premise to it which was good. Reward challenge. It also clearly had a secondary goal of encouraging a wider variety of content to be run...ie sell more adventure packs...this was a large mistake because the existing xp structure already had a handle on this incentive called the first time completion bonus...you will note this bonus was increased a good bit on hard/elite with bravery bonus. However, it failed to note many of the basic concepts of designing a good reward structure.

    It does penalize you for doing more. Simply running a casual quest first before an elite run is a very bad idea, particularly if that casual quest is a low xp return quest and the elite run is a high xp return run. This is an issue with having 'streaks' and first time bonuses.

    It does, however, reward the behavior of running a wider variety of content. However, the bonus for running more challenging content is less definite as it actually is only a bonus for running more challenging content the first time in a quest. That has everything to do with the first time bonus nature of the reward.

    It also does reward doing quests on elite (higher difficulty), however it has an inverse incentive to run some of the more challenging content at all while leveling. It makes little sense to run in the flesh and various raids at level for the vast majority of players under the bravery bonus. This harder content they would have run alot more often without the bonus as they would have the option to run hard/norm and not worry about streaks. Also with more xp per quest the needed xp/available xp ratio went down meaning less incentive to run those oddball quests. This is an issue with the streak nature of the bravery bonus.

    Now there are also game specific issues here...

    • Potential to reduce pugs
    • Potential to create more culture clashes between different player groups
    • Potential for other grouping issues
    It should be fairly obvious that elite LFMs are up with the bravery bonus. It should also be fairly obvious normal LFMs are down with the bravery bonus. In all it certainly does seem that pugs are more selective and as such it is harder for pugs to get into groups. That is a potential problem and it has to do with the streak nature and first time nature of bravery bonus.

    With less normal LFMs those who really are not ready for elite and those who like to 'sniff the flowers' have more incentives to just hit those elite LFMs to get a party. This leads to culture clash issues at a greater rate then prior to this system. This is an effect of the streak nature and first time nature of the bravery bonus.

    There are also other grouping issues that develop with bravery bonus. The most pressing being the disincentive to join friends, LFMs, and guildies for non elite content until you knock out a run of it on elite. That is an important thing as it reduces the potential group members for everyone and decreases the preferred group members even more, unless you just do it on elite. This is again due to the streak nature and first time nature of the bravery bonus.

    So what themes do we see here? Well all the big issues with the bravery bonus have to do with how the streak works and how the bonus is oriented to be a bonus for doing a quest for the first time on elite.

    The proper way to address these is to alter the streak mechanics and the bonus being placed upon doing a quest for the first time on elite.

    I suggest...

    • Bravery bonus applies to every run of a quest on elite. This bonus decays away in the same manner as repetition xp penalty works, but at a higher rate of decay.
    • Streaks are only reduced when running a quest on a non-elite setting. They are reduced by one each time you run a quest on hard or lower (hard streak is reduced by one for normal/casual). This applies to any run of the quest not just the first run.
    • Whenever a quest is eligible for a first time on X difficulty lower then the difficulty you are running quest on, but you have already gotten the bonus for running it on that difficulty you get the bonus xp for running it on that higher difficulty.
    This would result in streaks being a given for anyone who runs the majority of content on elite...which is the whole point here...without penalizing them for hopping in a normal group with their RL friends. It would also dramatically reduce the bonuses for running quests on lower difficulties after hitting elite first time.

    Basically it would mean running elite is an even better idea if you can run elite with your group, but if you really can't cut it or think it will be more work then it is worth you can run normal without feeling like you made a mistake later.
    Last edited by Cyr; 05-01-2012 at 02:29 PM.
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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    Yes, it was put into to reduce TR grinds. ..........
    Didnt read the rest of your long post since the first sentence was so obviously absurd. If reducing the grind was the goal then just reducing the XP needed to level would be the easy fix. Why go to all of the trouble to program and design a new game mechanic. It is ludicrous to think this.

    BB encourages people who can to challenge themselves to run elite quests. The streak is in place to also encourage these folks to continue doing it. In essence, it encourages (with positive incentives) a segregation based on player skill. It also discourages these folks from zerging quests on normal. This later behavior impacts the game poorly in a number of ways.

    1. Causes more strain on the servers and more potential lag.
    2. It alienates newer players.

    Of course new players can attempt to pike along with the elite crowd, but it does not take too long before they realize they are out of their league. I will run normal and hard quests. When I do, I help players out quite a bit. However, when I run elite, I now refuse to baby any party members. I comment to them if their DPS or behavior is sub par for elite play and point out to them how to improve their performance. I refuse to stop questing progress to help them find their way if lost. If I am questing a chain, an obvious new player is removed from the party after the first quest.

  10. #90
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niv-mizzet View Post
    I, however, play DDO for exactly those times. Strategy and memory can handle all of that stuff that you have run through 10 times already, but I always look forward to the moment when you have to fall back on skill to bring you over the top in an unexpected situation.

    For example, my favorite ToD raid was the one where I learned that I was sturdy enough to tank suulo as a sorcerer. (I didn't realize he hit so soft ) ..and I learned because, well, we didn't really have a choice.
    I find your assessment of "skill" extremely amusing. Your "skill" as a sorc is being sturdy enough to tank Suulomades?

    The rest of us use the term "skill" to mean having good strategic instincts combined with having good keyboard reflexes. Even for new players with "skills", elite will be much less entertaining than normal. Simply because they'll be required to hack at mobs for about 5 seconds too long to be interesting.

  11. #91
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    If that was the simple case, they could have left the "streak" out of the equation.
    This was explained by Madfloyd.

    The Streak Bonus was designed to lessen the Grind for TR's. The Grind in this sense was referring to repeating a small limited number of high exp quests to get to cap.

    When you consider that an Ongoing Elite Streak with Bravery, can easily add up to 150% Exp, and now with Tomes adding 25 - 50% on top of that, you can be running an elite streak for 200% exp by just doing different quests as you level up.

    So, the principal behind the Bravery Bonus is that, if you run all the quests in the VoN series you get end up with More exp in the short and long run, then if you just grinded VoN3 a dozen times.

    Which was the main intention and purpose of the streak concept to begin with. That is why to keep the "Streak" up, players have to keep moving to the next quest.

  12. #92
    Community Member ...v...'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magusrex777 View Post
    After an 18 month absence I have returned to the game and I am not happy about the elite streaking. I know there have been other threads about this. I did not want to necro one and It took until now to complete my feelings on the subject. I did not want to take a position until I participated myself.

    I feel it is important to note that I have been primarily leveling my healer (cleric) during this time. This is what I have seen. Even when I join groups that say normal or hard in the description people join and try to force elite. and then get rude if you do not change, if you do not change they drop. This is frustrating because you had been waiting and were finally just about to enter. This is when these people often wait to bring this up, it gives them more leverage, they know you want to start.

    Let’s say you give in and do it on elite. Some groups should not do elite, people were signing up for normal or hard for a reason perhaps. These runs are sometimes disasters because you brought a bunch of people who were not ready for elite. As a healer it is really hard to tell. Sometime I have to do nothing but cast an occasional RS II aura and do not even need to heal to because the characters are so overpowered they do not need me. Other times I am out of spell points after the first two groups we face. Dungeon difficulty and character balance is way our of wack.

    Just the other day, I had a person drop after they zerged ahead and died twice, after they wined for us to do elite then two other dropped with him. They immediately reformed without us(saw in LFM) we went back to entrance popped a hireling and finished the elite short handed(was started as a six man scaling wise) Remove three people and the group does better, I have no idea what I am going to get. I joined a desecrated vol farm on hard with two others that were under level, we were completing in under 10 mins and I could barely run fast enough to keep up, I got to cast some blade barriers weeeeee but the xp return was crazy.

    In my opinion elite streaking encourages people to do elites that should not be. When that happens, I am left sitting at my keyboard going, “this sucks” This can happen even when you signed up for a normal or hard group. I have strict rules about video games. If it isn’t fun do not play. I am not saying make elites easier, I enjoy challenges, just not with people who have no chance to complete. Grouping guild only is not an option and I have another character that a duo with my wife with hirelings. I have way more fun playing that way, I may just have to sack my healer or play him solo (he does that well). It stinks because I wanted to help others with this character.
    The term "hate the game not the player" came to mind as I read through your rant. If DDO had some sort of gear checker implemented perhpas with a score and limited people to dungeons difficulties based on that we might not have that issue. I am sure we can dream of a day like that when this game will reach such refinements.

  13. #93
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Which was the main intention and purpose of the streak concept to begin with. That is why to keep the "Streak" up, players have to keep moving to the next quest.
    First time on elite does that. You don't need streak to accomplish what u are describing. I agree, however, that challenge and less grind was part of the intent of the bravery bonus.

    You aren't going to get Turbine to tell you that they don't want certain people in new player groups. It's a hidden incentive that they'll never admit to -- so stop using them as the scapegoat here. You can choose to believe whatever you want, you don't need Turbine's permission.

    I like the elite streak bonus, mostly because it was designed to keep vets out of new player groups. You aren't going to convince me that I don't like it because that wasn't the reason it was made. For all I know, Turbine bumbled into a good solution.

  14. #94
    Community Member Cyndrome's Avatar
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    Default Elite streaking - bah - let's do epic streaking


  15. #95
    Community Member DeafeningWhisper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    You aren't going to get Turbine to tell you that they don't want certain people in new player groups. It's a hidden incentive that they'll never admit to -- so stop using them as the scapegoat here. You can choose to believe whatever you want, you don't need Turbine's permission.

    I like the elite streak bonus, mostly because it was designed to keep vets out of new player groups. You aren't going to convince me that I don't like it because that wasn't the reason it was made.
    So Turbine willingly wants to limit grouping and have vets avoid playing with new players? For what reason? How is that a good business model?

    Also no one is trying to convince you you don't like the streak only that it wasn't meant as a segregation tool as you believe it.
    "Pike or do not. There is no lag."

  16. #96
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeafeningWhisper View Post
    So Turbine willingly wants to limit grouping and have vets avoid playing with new players? For what reason? How is that a good business model?
    Honestly I have no idea why LFM's are down. Schools almost out, the days are getting warmer, people might be doing finals, going outside to play, and getting ready for summer vacation for all of us really know.

    Just saying.
    Last edited by Ungood; 05-01-2012 at 06:22 PM.

  17. #97
    Community Member Magusrex777's Avatar
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    Cyr… I could not have said it as well myself. I appreciate your meaningful contribution to the thread. I value the time you took out of your day to add your thoughts on the matter. I have no problems with rewarding a challenging and diverse play-style. I also believe they could have achieved the desired results with a different reward. I agree with your suggestions. They would work much better.

    I am not lying about my experiences, non elite groups are hard to find and people regularly try to make you do elite after joining an advertised normal/hard. I was leveling this character to do group things when my wife did not want to play. My experience while leveling has taught me that I will level this character to level of my other character and use it for dungeons when our normal pairing has difficulty.

    I have had too many negative experiences; I feel this is primarily because of unbalanced rewards incentivizing an admittedly non intended anti social grouping behavior. If other people have similar experience to mine when making a character to heal others, it cannot be good for the long term health of the game. Without the option of playing with my wife I would just go play another game.

    I have many questions about many of topics discussed in this thread and how it will or will not be made worse by the expansion. I will save that for another thread.

  18. #98
    Community Member Emili's Avatar
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    Naked raid runs be fun.
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  19. #99
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    Default I like it.

    Personally I like the Bravery Bonus. I dislike the NNNNNNNNNHE farm model. I like hitting the quests on elite and maybe hard and moving on. I will farm some on normal but not many. There are some I don't do at level on elite because the investment it too great for the return. Elite is not for everyone. Normal is not for me. This is why there are choices. Make the choice that is best for you and play the game for your enjoyment. Diversity is OK. Everyone does not have to be the same or play the same.
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  20. #100
    Community Member Caliban's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    The DEVs have stated elite doesnt scale while normal and hard does. If elite IS scaling its not WAI. The answer is to make elite not scale at all. This encourages group play.
    Oh, elite definitely scales and has for awhile now. I can start an elite quest on my monk (such as Elite Ritual Sacrifice) with just a hireling, and be killing things easily and getting missed by most of the gnolls. Four people join, and I'm suddenly getting hammered and starting to miss more.

    I've also noticed it on my PM wizard when doing Weapon Shipment on Elite. Solo? The archers can't hurt me and just fill up my mana bar (torque and conc opp item), and my HP bar never drops for more than a few seconds. Full party? I now have to pay attention to my HP bar and heal myself regularly. Plus, I'm not getting mana back because I'm not getting all the archer aggro anymore.

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