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  1. #1
    Community Member Zyerz's Avatar
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    Default Rangers are gimp?

    Ok, let me start by saying I specialize in playing rangers. All styles and mixes. I love the class and have found it to be one of the best in the game imo.

    The other day I wanted to join a Vale Slayer at level 12. Got instantly declined even though the lfm filtered levels 12-20. I sent a tell to the leader asking why he had declined me. (let me note I don't really join pugs much, and if I do, its usually led by someone I've run with before that I know is a good player). But this wasnt the case. The leader told me that rangers were gimp and a useless class. I asked him if I could try and prove him wrong. He accepted my challenge. I went and soloed the spider section of the vale with ease, when I hear: *ding*. The 5th life Fighter (also the leader) had died near coal chamber. I go and rescue him. Kill the named Bearded Devil and his 8 or 7 goons with ease, take his stone to the shrine and ress him.

    He apologizes and takes back what he said about rangers.

    So, here are some cool things rangers do:

    -Heal others in between battles, and self heal proficiently. (even more with cleric dili)
    -Deal decent DPS (more if you go tempest STR based)
    -Nice buff spells like barkskin and FOM.
    -Both Dual weilding and archery feat bonuses.
    -Evasion
    -Can get decent AC if geared and built properly.
    -Great survivability.

    Look, rangers arent meant to be a specific playing style class, despite the classification in the character creation. Rangers are a jack of all trades sort of class.... Not as good as druids in that sense, but they are an all around toon. I find that a well built ranger can be a great support toon and a great solo class as well. That is all.
    Last edited by Zyerz; 04-25-2012 at 09:57 PM.

    "Hikari datte, yami datte, kitto"

    Into light, into darkness, surely.

  2. #2
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    Rangers (and fighter/barbarian TWF builds) were nerfed during the great TWF nerfing. The fighters and barbarians were probably nerfed even harder, but could at least respec to THF (losing any blood, sweat, and tears that went into khopeshes). Rogues were also nerfed, but the devs nerf rogues by accident every other update.

    Yes, rangers do all this and more. The scary thing is that a strength-based WF FVS can do all that (except ranged. He has to use spells like divine punishment for ranged damage) and do it better. Real healing (95% as good as a nanybot), more DPS, more buffing (since most offensive spells won't land).

    One thing you left out was ranger skill numbers. A ranger gets enough skill points that a single level of rogue allows the player to max search, disable, and UMD without spending too much on int (add a few rogue levels (7-9) and you can max them all - and dump both int and dex). I wouldn't make a melee ranger without starting with a level of rogue.

    I have no idea if the party you are complaining about takes barbarians. While the current DDO fashion says rangers are still out (pretty much since the WoP nerf, but the TWF nerf did us in), non-self-healing types are the current pariahs. At least with the rangers we can not bother the clerics and fvs while the sorcerer solos the quest.

    The rangers (and paladins) are pretty much hoping that the enhancements will make us once again full fledged citizens of Stormreach. Don't count on it (just ask the rogues).

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by yawumpus View Post
    The rangers (and paladins) are pretty much hoping that the enhancements will make us once again full fledged citizens of Stormreach. Don't count on it (just ask the rogues).
    from what we know about the new enhanchment system, i think that rangers will benefit quite nicely.

    for example, you will probably be able to skip the spring attack line without gimping your dps since it is planned to unlock only a defensive line. this alone frees three feats and will let you strengthen other sides of the character for greater flexibility.

    another boon to rangers will come from racial tabs. i foresee combining tempest with assassin (halfling) or with ravager (horc) will lead to powerful builds. two dps tabs is all you need to spend all your APs into.

    in fact, if things holds up, i am considering a build with 18 or 15 ranger levels for my fighter to TR into. of course i will wait untill the system is finalized before doing so.

  4. #4
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    The first character I built was a tempest ranger. I then switched to AA when it was all the rage, esp. with the elven racial AA.

    Along those lines, the case you make in the OP is strongest with a str based tempest ranger, as you mention, but *pure* rangers are pretty weak when it comes to a longbow build these days. There's little reason to keep more than 11-12 levels of ranger for the auto feats, and then you can take 6 or more levels of monk for 10k stars. Having said that, at least 6 levels of ranger is still probably the best bargain in terms of multiclassing. I guess what I'm pointing to is that something like hong kong pewy or perhaps even helves angel (or monkcheri amour) still gives a far better ranged build than a pure ranger. I'm not sure how the updates will affect that, as the relevant ones seem more oriented toward melee, but I could be wrong, I admittedly haven't looked very closely at the coming updates; would appreciate relevant feedback; I guess I'm waiting till they are more solid.

  5. #5
    Community Member Beethoven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyerz View Post
    I love the class and have found it to be one of the best in the game imo.
    My main melee is a Tempest and I've been playing him since three years. Today he has a couple TR and LRs under his belt and thus changed greatly from the original build to (sort of) keep up with the times. He is (to me) the most fun melee, but if it comes down to it - no it is not the "best" choice from a min-max perspective.

    I shown up a lot of pure dps monkeys but by and large that was due to being more practiced at the game or simply having superior gear. There is a reason for the ranger hate. Rangers can self heal, but as can other classes alone by using Silver Flame Pots or UMD for heal scrolls. Barkskin is a nice buff for those who care about AC, but you can easily get a +3 from pots or Cannith Crafting, a +4 from Yugo Pots and superior version (+6) from epic gear.

    FoM? Comes on boots. Dual wielding is nice but front loaded and Tempest III offers fairly little for its cost. You splash two levels of monk or rogue on a dps build and you can beat a ranger in most anything except for the versatility to switch between ranged and melee quickly. They are supposed to be killer against favored enemies but other PRE's can beat them (in dps) even there, not to mention their dps tends to drop like a stone without the FE bonus.

    That being said, I still love mine for its versatility and survivability. I am not fooling myself that I could not have achieved similar (or potentially better) results with a different build. That said, only because Tempest is not the ultimate min-max choice these days does not equate to them being gimp. Mine performs okay dps-wise and where others might out-perform him in damage (which really isn't as often as the forum may make it seem) he still brings to the table that (more often than not) he can act as off-tank, keep himself alive with relative easy (my Cure Serious hit me for 120-130 and are faster than scrolls) and get people buffed up again if/after they die.

    They are more complicated than your usual FB (build-wise) but done right still can be very effective and the game is not hard enough that you will fail (or fail to contribute) unless you do max damage and if only a single member of your group does 1d4 less damage than they could the whole group is doomed to fail. Declining a toon on sole account they are Tempest/AA is like declining a dps monkey build because they don't have greensteel yet. Also, I could as easily make the argument Kensai and Frenzied Berserker are gimp because a well built/well geared Savant can do everything they can and then some.

    I do like keep pointing these things out because after several updates and game changes melee in general have fallen back a bit compared to casters and particularly rangers and paladins could use some extra love again after being hit with the nerf bat for two years and counting. The good news it looks like they will get that much needed love come the expansion in a couple of months; alone getting full STR on off-hand attacks should make them very viable again even for min-maxers.
    Characters on Sarlona: Ungnad (Morninglord, Wizard 17 / Favored Soul 2 / Fighter 1) -- Baerktghar (Dwarf, Paladin 18 / Fighter 2) -- Simulacruhm (Bladeforged, Artificer 16 / Paladin 3 / Wizard 1)

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  6. #6
    Community Member Phidius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyerz View Post
    Ok, let me start by saying I specialize in playing rangers. All styles and mixes. I love the class and have found it to be one of the best in the game imo.

    The other day I wanted to join a Vale Slayer at level 12. Got instantly declined even though the lfm filtered levels 12-20. I sent a tell to the leader asking why he had declined me. (let me note I don't really join pugs much, and if I do, its usually led by someone I've run with before that I know is a good player). But this wasnt the case. The leader told me that rangers were gimp and a useless class. I asked him if I could try and prove him wrong. He accepted my challenge. I went and soloed the spider section of the vale with ease, when I hear: *ding*. The 5th life Fighter (also the leader) had died near coal chamber. I go and rescue him. Kill the named Bearded Devil and his 8 or 7 goons with ease, take his stone to the shrine and ress him.

    He apologizes and takes back what he said about rangers.

    ...
    Kudos to you for wanting to try and educate someone who uses the word "gimp" in defending their gameplay decisions. I would have bet heavily against your chance of succeeding... in fact, I doubt you did. You probably just convinced him that YOU are a good player.

    Vale slayers is the last place where one should value obscene DPS over self-sufficiency. I wonder how he feels about Amrath?
    "I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities" - Vaarsuvius, OoTS #674

  7. #7
    Hero Hellllboy's Avatar
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    There was a time (pre:FTP) that the Dwarven Ranger was the most valuable player in a group and would be declined for not having such resources. Its funny how things change.

  8. #8
    Community Member Zyerz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phidius View Post
    Kudos to you for wanting to try and educate someone who uses the word "gimp" in defending their gameplay decisions. I would have bet heavily against your chance of succeeding... in fact, I doubt you did. You probably just convinced him that YOU are a good player.

    Vale slayers is the last place where one should value obscene DPS over self-sufficiency. I wonder how he feels about Amrath?
    I can solo slayer amrath at lv 16 on that same ranger. And on his past life (18 ranger/two levels of monk) performed quite well on Amrath elite.

    Thing is, like I mentioned... Ranger DPS is low.... So competing against a full kensai fighter is impossible, but Rangers do make a good support class. Hopefully with the expansion and the future UI remake, rangers will get more more love when it comes to DPS.

    "Hikari datte, yami datte, kitto"

    Into light, into darkness, surely.

  9. #9
    Community Member Zyerz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellllboy View Post
    There was a time (pre:FTP) that the Dwarven Ranger was the most valuable player in a group and would be declined for not having such resources. Its funny how things change.
    Yeah... I remember that.

    "Hikari datte, yami datte, kitto"

    Into light, into darkness, surely.

  10. #10
    Community Member Talon_Moonshadow's Avatar
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    Slayer areas need Kill Counts IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  11. #11
    Community Member Rydin_Dirtay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krogyy View Post
    another boon to rangers will come from racial tabs. i foresee combining tempest with assassin (halfling) or with ravager (horc) will lead to powerful builds. two dps tabs is all you need to spend all your APs into.
    Yeah one of my Rangers was a Halfling on his first life. I may go BACK to Halfling if some new powerful combo is created. (Racial PrE + Class PrE)

    Tanking has been moving toward the HP-factories anyway, for the last 2 years. I might as well go DPS if they really do add the Assassin racial.
    Khyber:Greenberry, Jemric, Qashta, Leuk, Thurradal + many others

  12. #12
    Community Member Melcena's Avatar
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    Default I Applaud You Sir

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyerz View Post
    Ok, let me start by saying I specialize in playing rangers. All styles and mixes. I love the class and have found it to be one of the best in the game imo.

    The other day I wanted to join a Vale Slayer at level 12. Got instantly declined even though the lfm filtered levels 12-20. I sent a tell to the leader asking why he had declined me. (let me note I don't really join pugs much, and if I do, its usually led by someone I've run with before that I know is a good player). But this wasnt the case. The leader told me that rangers were gimp and a useless class. I asked him if I could try and prove him wrong. He accepted my challenge. I went and soloed the spider section of the vale with ease, when I hear: *ding*. The 5th life Fighter (also the leader) had died near coal chamber. I go and rescue him. Kill the named Bearded Devil and his 8 or 7 goons with ease, take his stone to the shrine and ress him.

    He apologizes and takes back what he said about rangers.

    So, here are some cool things rangers do:

    -Heal others in between battles, and self heal proficiently. (even more with cleric dili)
    -Deal decent DPS (more if you go tempest STR based)
    -Nice buff spells like barkskin and FOM.
    -Both Dual weilding and archery feat bonuses.
    -Evasion
    -Can get decent AC if geared and built properly.
    -Great survivability.

    Look, rangers arent meant to be a specific playing style class, despite the classification in the character creation. Rangers are a jack of all trades sort of class.... Not as good as druids in that sense, but they are an all around toon. I find that a well built ranger can be a great support toon and a great solo class as well. That is all.
    I applaud you sir. Keep up the good work.
    The Patron Saint of Patience on Sarlona Server
    Toons: Ormadil The Red, Aesanon The Orange, Aedanon The Gray, Faithwarden, Aelanon The Blue

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