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  1. #41
    Community Member Cetus's Avatar
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    For simplicity, I'll refer to action boosts (e.g. Haste boost, Damage boost), "clickables" (e.g. Pally past life, frenzy, death frenzy), and "clickies" (e.e titan grip gloves, eardweller, madstone) collectively as "activating buffs."

    The benefits of activating buffs:

    As far as casters are concerned-

    There aren't many to use. A caster is interested in a few damaging spells, and thus uses only 2 or 3 clickable items to amplify their damage in a certain spell.

    The ones that are used have a very good duration. Superior freeze 8 that is available on a ToD belt is 3 minutes long. Even the eardweller is a solid minute of 100% extra damage amplification. Refreshing it isn't on ones mind all the time. Very manageable.

    Their uses add dynamic to the game. I find it more interesting to have items that augment my efficiency.

    As far as melees are concerned-

    Activating buffs have the potential to skyrocket a melees performance. If all of the activating buffs available to us are used at once, a melees damage output increases MUCH more significantly than if the melee would swing without any.

    Activating buffs provide dynamic to playing a melee, otherwise autoattacking and afk would be the gameplan.

    Their use is directly proportional to melee player skill. Their limiting nature enables players to think and reason the usefulness of each activating buff, especially between long intervals of shrines. This is a benefit, because a melee is so much less useful when no activating buffs are used, gauging the times when your usefulness is most meaningful is a hallmark of a skillful melee player.

    The detriments of activating buffs

    For casters-

    Activating buffs have no difficulty check counterpart. Casters have activating buffs that are solely responsible for their damage output with their spells. There is no activating buff in existance that augments their DC's.

    For melees-

    This is the fun one.

    Firstly, the major activating buffs that melees depend on are typically damage boost and haste boost. These are the most powerful universal activating buffs that every melee wants to fit in. Fighters and rogues acquire tier 4 haste boost. Barbarians acquire tier 4 damage boost. Fighters and rogues acquiring both damage boost and haste boost via half elf racial perk achieve huge improvements.

    And these very buffs that melee depend on to excel are 20 seconds a buff, are not self-renewing, such as paladins smites are, and exist in a typical quantity of 8-12, which is ~10 for your average melee with a moderate investment into their boost count.

    Furthermore, in order to acquire that boost count; the fighter action boost line, for example, is worth 2, then 4, then """""""""6"""""""" ap for a single increment in a 20 second boost. Halforcs have it better, their racial line is 1, then 2, and then...still """""3""""" points for the same boost benefit that the first, 1 ap enhancement, provided.

    A branching issue from this is the time. My fighter acquired so many activating buffs that I spend more time enabling them than I do swinging at a boss, and, its not even that many. Using haste boost, damage boost, and a pally past life clicky, and then a titan grip clicky is already pushing it, but...

    Heres the key that diminishes melee effictiveness even when they want to amplify their damage as much as possible:

    Activating buffs that are of the same type, outlined in the beginning as "clickies" are on the same universal cooldown timer.

    I literally need to wait an entire cooldown timer for activating a different clicky each and every time. If you add these up, you have madstone rage, titan grip gloves, pally past life clicky, haste boost, damage boost, then maybe divine might if a paladin, frenzy, death frenzy, rage, if a barbarian, and even some characters acquire the rogue past life activatable for 10 extra SA dmg.

    When the majority of those activating buffs are used, you actually lost a TON of damage output because of the TIME it took to do that.

    Other thoughts:

    Activating buffs are an amazing way to add dynamics to a players experience. However, their uses between melees and casters are, yet again, in great favor of casters because they don't rely on activating buffs to be effective as melees do.

    The most powerful activating buffs a melee has, haste boost IV and damage boost IV, are limited, extremely expensive to acquire gains in, and aren't self renewing.

    Furthermore, they are the most powerful abilities that melees have, and yet, are still largely ineffective when your friendly casters are cleaning up the instance.

    Extremely powerful activating buffs should be provided to melees that enable them, when used, to have efficiency comparable to a casters for at least the length of their duration.

    Activating buffs that are gear based need to be placed on separate cooldown timers for separate items. Activating buffs such as the rogue past life need a faster animation, it is very slow and costly to use time AND feat wise.


    A barbarians rage needs to regenerate over time as well. It is useless to have a barbarian that has ran out of rages for the remainder of the quest. There need to be some recourse for melee activating buffs.


    Those are my thoughts on this issue. Thanks for reading.
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  2. #42
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZgreentea View Post
    From a personal point of view, I use about four, maybe five active clickies on any character. 1-5 are the only keys I can easily reach with my left hand for my active hotbar. I haven't developed the skills needed to actively hit other buttons and switch hotbars while questing like some players.

    That means no matter what class I play, I have about 5 items on a hotbar I actively use, and the rest of my hotbars are things I can click on with my mouse as needed.

    So I would say I am middle of the road. I like having some go to spells/feats, some more buffy stuff, but I only use a select few even if many more are available to me.
    i play exactly the same way. that's why I think active combat style/approach should be more emphazied than a million clicks. Incorporate some of that clicking into how you actually combat an enemy instead.

  3. #43
    Community Member orakio's Avatar
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    I prefer a more active playstyle. That being said I think that many of the melee classes(fighter, barb, ranger, rogue particularly) could use more active abilities like strikes and tactical combat feats. They shouldn't be mandatory to be succesful but I think the option should definitely be there for the people that enjoy the active playstyle.

    Also I prefer abilities like monk strikes/tactical combat feats compared to action boosts but I believe both have there place and both should remain as a part of the game. The big thing though is that any activateable ability not hamper your attack animation enough to be of questionable use (i.e. divine might1).

  4. #44
    Community Member Zess-wolf's Avatar
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    I Believe that for melees we have a good balance on number/effectivity/uses(correct me on this word plz not a native english speaker), but while that on casters we have many spell boost, each element and spell levels, i think it should be reworked for something like level range and combined onto elements(similar like caster previous element enhancements).

    For example, a clicky that boosts 1-3 level , fire and cold spells... personally, i dont think its overpowered, since we need a min. level to use the spells and this would reduce the clickies a lot.

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  5. #45
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gulain View Post
    My thoughts are as follows:

    Every melee class should be more active and engaging than simply pre-buffing and auto-attacking. This includes things such as action boosts, rages, manyshot, etc. I would LOVE to see every melee class have the option of 1-2 ACTIVE ATTACKS with semi-short cooldowns that are used on top of regular attacks (think 6s to 10s between uses). When combined with stuns/trips/sunders available to all classes it provides alot of basic active tools to use in various situations. Obviously some classes that already have these types of attacks may not need new ones added but can instead look at getting more of the passive style buffs instead.

    Examples of these types of abilities can already be found on paladins and monks in the form of smites and monk strikes. Another example is the sniper shot for Deepwood Sniper PRE for Ranger. These type of abilities make you think when and how you use them to maximize their effect and really would engage players more.

    I am also fine with them being debuff style abilities as well. They don't necessarily need to do more damage on a melee swing than a standard attack so long as they apply additional effects. These can be things like bleeding wounds, chance for extra proc damage when people hit in melee, a curse type effect that makes people hitting the target attack slightly faster, etc. They provide flavor and unique benefits that can help provide niche roles for various builds.

    What I would not like to see would be the game turn into rotating 1 > 2 > 3 > 1 > 4 > 1 > 2 > 3 like other non-action MMOs typically do. That is sort of a playstyle unique to casters and monks in this and I'd like to see it stay that way.
    totally agree. you're saying the same thing as my longer more incoherent post but in a much clearer, briefer way. Here here.

  6. #46
    Community Member Zess-wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durnak View Post
    For simplicity, I'll refer to action boosts (e.g. Haste boost, Damage boost), "clickables" (e.g. Pally past life, frenzy, death frenzy), and "clickies" (e.e titan grip gloves, eardweller, madstone) collectively as "activating buffs."

    The benefits of activating buffs:

    As far as casters are concerned-

    There aren't many to use. A caster is interested in a few damaging spells, and thus uses only 2 or 3 clickable items to amplify their damage in a certain spell.

    The ones that are used have a very good duration. Superior freeze 8 that is available on a ToD belt is 3 minutes long. Even the eardweller is a solid minute of 100% extra damage amplification. Refreshing it isn't on ones mind all the time. Very manageable.

    Their uses add dynamic to the game. I find it more interesting to have items that augment my efficiency.

    As far as melees are concerned-

    Activating buffs have the potential to skyrocket a melees performance. If all of the activating buffs available to us are used at once, a melees damage output increases MUCH more significantly than if the melee would swing without any.

    Activating buffs provide dynamic to playing a melee, otherwise autoattacking and afk would be the gameplan.

    Their use is directly proportional to melee player skill. Their limiting nature enables players to think and reason the usefulness of each activating buff, especially between long intervals of shrines. This is a benefit, because a melee is so much less useful when no activating buffs are used, gauging the times when your usefulness is most meaningful is a hallmark of a skillful melee player.

    The detriments of activating buffs

    For casters-

    Activating buffs have no difficulty check counterpart. Casters have activating buffs that are solely responsible for their damage output with their spells. There is no activating buff in existance that augments their DC's.

    For melees-

    This is the fun one.

    Firstly, the major activating buffs that melees depend on are typically damage boost and haste boost. These are the most powerful universal activating buffs that every melee wants to fit in. Fighters and rogues acquire tier 4 haste boost. Barbarians acquire tier 4 damage boost. Fighters and rogues acquiring both damage boost and haste boost via half elf racial perk achieve huge improvements.

    And these very buffs that melee depend on to excel are 20 seconds a buff, are not self-renewing, such as paladins smites are, and exist in a typical quantity of 8-12, which is ~10 for your average melee with a moderate investment into their boost count.

    Furthermore, in order to acquire that boost count; the fighter action boost line, for example, is worth 2, then 4, then """""""""6"""""""" ap for a single increment in a 20 second boost. Halforcs have it better, their racial line is 1, then 2, and then...still """""3""""" points for the same boost benefit that the first, 1 ap enhancement, provided.

    A branching issue from this is the time. My fighter acquired so many activating buffs that I spend more time enabling them than I do swinging at a boss, and, its not even that many. Using haste boost, damage boost, and a pally past life clicky, and then a titan grip clicky is already pushing it, but...

    Heres the key that diminishes melee effictiveness even when they want to amplify their damage as much as possible:

    Activating buffs that are of the same type, outlined in the beginning as "clickies" are on the same universal cooldown timer.

    I literally need to wait an entire cooldown timer for activating a different clicky each and every time. If you add these up, you have madstone rage, titan grip gloves, pally past life clicky, haste boost, damage boost, then maybe divine might if a paladin, frenzy, death frenzy, rage, if a barbarian, and even some characters acquire the rogue past life activatable for 10 extra SA dmg.

    When the majority of those activating buffs are used, you actually lost a TON of damage output because of the TIME it took to do that.

    Other thoughts:

    Activating buffs are an amazing way to add dynamics to a players experience. However, their uses between melees and casters are, yet again, in great favor of casters because they don't rely on activating buffs to be effective as melees do.

    The most powerful activating buffs a melee has, haste boost IV and damage boost IV, are limited, extremely expensive to acquire gains in, and aren't self renewing.

    Furthermore, they are the most powerful abilities that melees have, and yet, are still largely ineffective when your friendly casters are cleaning up the instance.

    Extremely powerful activating buffs should be provided to melees that enable them, when used, to have efficiency comparable to a casters for at least the length of their duration.

    Activating buffs that are gear based need to be placed on separate cooldown timers for separate items. Activating buffs such as the rogue past life need a faster animation, it is very slow and costly to use time AND feat wise.


    A barbarians rage needs to regenerate over time as well. It is useless to have a barbarian that has ran out of rages for the remainder of the quest. There need to be some recourse for melee activating buffs.


    Those are my thoughts on this issue. Thanks for reading.
    Nicely said, +1 read this devs o/
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  7. #47
    Community Member delsoboss's Avatar
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    Personally i go with answer n° 1 with a bit of n° 3.

    I deleted a lot of fighter or barbarian characters at levels 5-12 because i found them dull and boring to play.

    Then playing my other characters i learned the game better, rolled up a twf fighter kensai loaded with tactical feats and boosts and oh my ... i found the fun and excitement of the real melee combat in this game.

    So for my personal experience the more the better, but ... BUT ... it shouldn't be required to use X number of active abilities every Y number of seconds (where Y < 30 seconds) to play any class.

    If someone wants to play the game autoattacking with his/her barbarian or using just 4 spells with his/her caster he/she should be able to do so. Win everything and beat everything? No. Get the max out of quests in the minimum time? No. Enjoy the game? Yes, absolutely.

  8. #48
    Community Member Grailhawk's Avatar
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    There's enough classes in the game that you can run the gamut. Some classes high with the passive others having so many clickies they cant use all in one fight.

    Honestly that's kind of how it works now and probably how it should stay Rangers, Fighters, Rogues have a few Monks, Paladins have more, Casters have a bunch.

  9. #49
    The Hatchery psteen1's Avatar
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    I like clickies that have an immediate or near immediate effect: Cleave, trip, stun, smiting, divine sacrifice. Super fun and give you a sense of doing more than holding down the mouse button. Give us more of these immediate clickies, at least on melee types who aren't spending time hitting buttons to cast spells.

    Clickies with a long cast time are annoying. Actually I am only referring to paladin's divine might here. If this thread relates to the enhancement pass, I would ask that divine might just be added into the permanent aura (though with no or reduced effect on party members), or made into an immediate clicky.

  10. #50
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    I would say once you get above 5 active clickies I tend to drop clickies from my rotations unless they are longer term ones so very heavy clicky classes that do not benefit greatly from those extra clickies I tend to just ignore the extras except in specific boss fights. Like monk I will use three elemental strikes, ToD, shadow fade, stun, and stunning fist with tod and shadow fade on inconvient keys to hit quickly because I hit them alot less.
    This is a good point... My monk also doesn't use all his possible combos, just a few...

    I have F and E and C and V and 3 mouse buttons hot-keyed for actions that I use a lot... F1 and F2 and F3 and F4 I also key for enhancement or feat actions.

    Anything past those 11 keys usually has to be mouse-clicked. So 11 is my limit on actions that I use all the time. (My spell casters use F5-F12 as well, but for lesser used spells)
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  11. #51
    Community Member Auran82's Avatar
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    'Clickie' abilities are good (smites, boosts etc) but I think some classes are too dependent on limited numbers of these boosts and could probably do with either having them regenerate over time or have access to lesser boosts as a passive feat.

    They could regenerate over time either from an item or from a class/PRE feature. The main reason is that you have some classes which get somewhat less efficient over longer quests while others don't really care at all.

    I agree with some posters above me, active combat is part of the game (and a very important part) so some number of clickies and resource management are needed, but at the same time, not having access to any kind of rage at a critical time can really hurt a barbarian, same with haste boosts for fighters and rogues and kensei boosts for those characters. It would be nice to have some kind of option in a pinch.

    Having said all this, paladins are a bit over the top and the main reason I haven't played one is there is just so many things to juggle between short term spell buffs, smites and DS etc.

  12. #52
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    I suppose another option is morphing some of the excessive clicking into meta-magic like status.

    Let me activate 1 to x clickies (items, enhancements, feats) at all once as as a clickable, customizable in-game macro with very little cooldown.

    Whereas it might take a minute or two now to activate all of those things (say power surge, titan grip, haste boost, damage boost, pally PL, rage clicky, and a DP clicky), this would be 1-3 seconds.

    Would it allow melees a huge burst increase by activating all of those things at once? Sure. But it's akin to a sorc nuking through all of his/her SP too fast. You start making melee's pick and choose what clicky sets to engage and when. As it is now, most reach a shrine with a ton of stuff unused because it's just too annoying to activate it in the heat of combat. Make melee's crave shrines as bad as blue bars. That would be fun.

    You could limit it by class level or something how many clickies could be activated at once. Or not.

  13. #53
    Community Member le_goat's Avatar
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    I like active clickies , but at some point it becomes too much like when you have more than 2 hotbars worth of clickies it then slows me down to hunt for the right clickie.

    i would like it if you could color code the frame of the clicky , like a red outline for action boosts, blue for magic boosts...etc

    oh and can i get a picture of the clicky on the hot bar instead of the item its on, and however many charges are left.

  14. #54
    Community Member Avidus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey-Boy View Post
    it's fine, though I'd like to see certain things like Power Surge be a full-time stance instead of a 1 minute clickie. I'd laso like to see Frenzy and Death Frenzie get the same treatment and not require the renewal.
    These would be good things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    ...Longer term clickies that provide buffs should be considered for passive treatment, but the overall balance now is fairly good. I would say once you get above 5 active clickies I tend to drop clickies from my rotations unless they are longer term ones so very heavy clicky classes that do not benefit greatly from those extra clickies I tend to just ignore the extras except in specific boss fights...
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aelonwy View Post
    I prefer passive abilities and toggles(luv toggles) to something i need to click every minute and half to keep it going. If it lasts shorter than 90 seconds I generally ignore it except for Manyshot. I really, really don't want to be forced to micromanage at that level (less than 90 secs) to succeed. I know metamagics are toggles but I must say that I very much appreciate now being able to assign them to specific spells indefinitely... it sure cut down on the micromanaging during combat. By the way, I absolutely despise 30 sec boosts (skill, atk, AC, etc)... pretty much only use them when absolutely necessary. Specifically, I'm required to take the AC boost on my dwarven defender for her PrE but I almost never use it... really doesn't seem much point to it. I do use her haste boost for red names and tougher situations.
    Agreed, especially about <= 30 sec action boosts.

    In general I would have to say I like my defensive things passive and my offensive things active.

    However too many active clickies boosting your power level makes your standard attack less and less useful to the point of if your not using a clickie don't bother would be very, very bad in my opinion.

    In summation, I don't mind clicking things but I don't want to micromanage every aspect of combat either.
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  15. #55
    Founder THAC0's Avatar
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    I would have to go with option #1 because it gives my characters a bit more flexibility in circumstances where there may not have been any or as much.

    I really like this new feature you have going.... Direct questions and us giving you direct input back in a safe format.

    T.

  16. #56
    Community Member Phemt81's Avatar
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    Edit: since i wrote this post too quickly it sounded gibberish and didn't represent what i really think.

    Please see here: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=160
    Last edited by Phemt81; 04-25-2012 at 11:50 PM.
    How to revamp past life reward system <--- working again
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We absolutely planned for Fighter to still have Haste Boost. It's absolutely a bug. Any similar issues that look "wrong" to any player should be bugged.
    Developers should fix this

  17. #57
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    I prefer the active playstyle for all of my characters. Clickies make you keep track of the combat and allow you to adjust what you are doing to increase your effectiveness in different situations.

    But, there are two things that I really dislike about clickies, particularly on melees.

    One, "per-day" uses vs. timers. I really dislike per-day uses of abilities. It reminds me of 4th e, which after playing for a few months with my pnp group, we shelved and brought the 3.5 books back out. Our main gripe with 4e was also the combat with "per-day" melee abilities. I have more to say about my reasoning as to why I don't like it, but trying to keep this concise. Rather than have abilities/items that give more clicks per day, do something that reduces timers.

    Two, activation time stinks. One of my favorite sarcastic comments to say when playing my melees with clickies is with my barbarian. "Hold on, everyone. I need a minute to get ticked off enough to fight!" Click rage, click frenzy, click other frenzy, click damage boost . . . crud, Harry is already half dead. I'm Helping! Situations can be made for most melee classes with these things, though Barbarian and Paladin suffer the most from it. Activations should get a once over, like you did with intimidate and diplomacy, only for all clickies.
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  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    As you know, some classes (e.g. casters) have more active "clickies" than others, with melee classes typically having less.

    What are your thoughts/tolerances on active abilities as they pertain to your play preferences?

    Some sample answers (in case this makes it easier - feel free to answer any way you like):
    1) The more the merrier! The more I can do the better.
    2) Love them as long as they are offensive attacks and not complimentary abilities (e.g. boosts or mob debuffs)
    3) I like having them, just don't want to be forced to use them to be successful.
    4) Prefer passive abilities, otherwise gameplay is too demanding & complex.

    As usual I thank you for your feedback.
    I assume the clickies you are talking about are ability clickies granted by classes, feats, and enhancments; and not the item clickies that some are responding about in this discussion.

    I like active ability clickies if they do something active and fairly dramatic. Stunning Blow, Trip, Smite Evil, and others along those lines I like. You hit a key and something dramatic happens. I also have to make decisions about when to use them because of limited uses or cooldowns. I did not hit them repeatedly as fast as I can. I might use Stunning Blow alot but not every time it immediately ends its cool down. If a enemy is about dead, I save my Stunning Blow for the next enemy. Active clickies that require decision making is good.

    Active clickies that require no decision making are not good. I tend to active Divine Might every time its duration ends because I have enough uses of it that I rarely run out between shrines. The only thing that makes me not use it is the hassle of remembering to active it every 60 seconds and the slow casting animation. That is not good. I would brother have less uses for more dramatic results or turn it on and have it keep using uses till I run out of uses or turn it off. Another option is just to make it a passive.

    Divine Sacrifice splits the line. It does something mildly dramatic but again no decision process. I hit it every time it is off cool down. I don't want DDO to be like some MMOs where dynamic combat means finding the best cool down rotation to go through for your abilities and you can literally write a script to hit one key and cycle through your cooldowns.

    All the standard haste/damage/AC/save/etc. boost are ok as they are limited enough in uses that you have to decide when to use them.

    It boils down to:
    * Active is good.
    * Deciding when to activate is good.
    * Activating every time it is off cooldown or needs refreshing is not good. (might as well be a passive or toggled)

  19. #59
    Community Member HarveyMilk's Avatar
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    Definitely option 1, but I prefer that the abilities be for interesting abilities (tactics) rather than to maintain mediocre damage (pallies).

  20. #60
    Community Member EatSmart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    As you know, some classes (e.g. casters) have more active "clickies" than others, with melee classes typically having less.

    What are your thoughts/tolerances on active abilities as they pertain to your play preferences?
    I love utility/control clickies like trip, stun, sunder.
    I have no strong feelings about short boosts that are powerful like fighter haste and manyshot.
    I dislike short boosts that are moderate in power that you cant ignore if you intend to do respectable DPS, like divine might (the enhancement ability).
    I love medium boosts like divine power and divine favour (spells).

    I despise smite evil and divine sacrifice. - When questing, they regularly hit thin air if you are trying to attack on the move, and when raiding they regularly get eaten by the server and just take the charge without resolving. They're too powerful to not use and expect to still do respectable DPS.

    In terms of melee clickies, I love assassins, shintao monks, arcane archers, and kensei, and hate paladins.

    In terms of spellcaster clickies, I'm happy with things like eardweller, superior ardour, and the spells themselves.

    On the specific subject of divine might, i'd personally prefer it if it was something more like a stance, that cost a use of turn to enter, and was broken by using turning based abilities, but was otherwise perpetual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torc View Post
    We like the fact it’s a choice as suppose to, “hell we just kill yonder dragon cause we’re OP”.
    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    I say we take off and nerf the whole game from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

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