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  1. #121
    Community Member Gadget2775's Avatar
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    I’m somewhere in the middle. I like having access to clickies for boost (and would just get bored if all I was doing was swapping a weapon set out) but there’s a limit…

    Specifically I’m thinking of Monks. Playing my 20 Shintao can really be a pita if I’m looking for optimized play. Between Light strikes, Stunning Fist, Improved Sunder, Triple Earth, Triple Water and lower levels of Fire and Air it’s an overload. Especially if the game doesn’t read one of the buttons clicked…Bam! Total suckage, I just missed my Anti Stun, or SP discount.

    My Intim-12/6/2 Fighter/Pally/Monk on the other hand has just the right amount. I occasionally have to juggle a little but to keep up with his actives, but they all (easily) fit on two hot bars. I can focus more on enjoying the content than fighting to keep up the optimal combinations of abilities.

    Finally, I really don’t think casters fall into the same category. I rarely find myself smashing through spells the same way I do other classes active abilities. I think a previous poster nailed it when they said the only real clicky I associate with caster are DoT’s (maybe Clerics aura/burst….But not as much as DoT’s)
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  2. #122
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    I wouldn't want clickies to become the default attack for melees. "221421341234" repeated endlessly doesn't really add anything significant, IMO. And I don't like babysitting cooldowns.

    For example, I like having the various monk abilities, but I might like some of the base strikes a lot more as just a toggle (duh, I'm fighting fire elementals; what strike do I want to be using?), and if clicking a finisher would instead chain everything and fire when enough Ki was built-up. I guess that would mean I'm not opposed to active situational strategizing, or reacting to the environment with clickies (however, not with a "push this button within 3 seconds" mechanism) but I don't care for the fiddly executional bits at the single attack level.

    Having said that, I might like modes for some ordinary combat clickies as well. Once I've made the decision that Sundering is a good idea (stupid heavy armor skeletons), I might like a "Sunder Mode" rather than micro-managing individual attacks. Exactly how that would function is a different matter. OTOH, a passive component for them could be nice as well. Stunning Blow just giving me a proc chance on each attack so that I still get some benefit from it, rather than me just finding the cooldown and timing of the attack too annoying to bother using it much, would be nice.

    On the limited short term boosts, I do tend to not use them because I might need them later, so I guess you can file me under not liking managing uses either.

    I wouldn't want everything passive, but consider the "game" to be more making the decisions on what action to take than clicking a whole bunch to make that action happen. If you're hitting something just because it's off timer, it really might as well be passive or modal.

  3. #123
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    I would be somewhere between 3 and 4. I have motor control issues and the more buttons I have to push the worse off I am. I try to avoid taking the "boost" enhancements and avoid playing spellcasters. I still feel forced to take some boost enhancements to get a prestiege class. My screen's bottom is filled with bars, and before today I didn't even place any boost on it. I play DDO to get my Dungeons and Dragons fix, and I don't like that my lack of physical abilities impeed my gameplay. Still, some clickies such as Bluff are necessary to show skill use.

  4. #124
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    I think Paladins and tactics Fighters are great. There are enough clicks to keep me entertained and not so many that I can't handle the hotbars.


    I think casters are fine. You have a reasonable number of "default" spells on your main hotbar and you can shuffle some spells in and out of that "main" hotbar depending on the quest. You can mouse click other spells when you need them since you don't cast dozens of spells in 30 seconds in the same way that you make dozens of melee attacks in that amount of time.


    I think Monk is a bit too much. If there were only one attack per element instead of 4 attacks per element and each elemental attack had a much shorter cooldown, I think Monks would be fine. Just trying to fit 3 Earth attacks and 3 Void attacks and one each of Air, Fire and Water as well as Fists of Light and Stunning Blow and Stunning Fists and Human damage boost and Cure Serious pots and the finisher clicky all on the hotbars in a way that lets me actually use them is absolutely maddening. And that doesn't even count Kukan-do or the anti-tainted-critter attacks.

    The number of different attacks that Monks need to use in order to reach anything even close to their potential is staggering. Shortening the individual ki strike attack's cooldown to the same as the global cooldown for ki strikes would mean that we could put the best of each of the Earth, Void, Fire, Water, Air, and Light/Dark. That's still 6 total attacks to put on your "main" hotbar plus a 7th button for the finisher, but 7 is a lot more manageable than 13 or more that we have now.


    One final thought: I like the fact that some classes have more clickies than others. Sometimes I want to play my Monk. Sometimes I want to be an righteous fury that smites the wicked with Divine Punishment, summoned whirling blades of death and a damn big Greatsword while keeping all of my companions alive. Sometimes, I just want to sit back and click Mass Heal once every 7 seconds. I like that I can have that choice currently. I do think Monks are a bit too click-intensive, but I like the fact that there is a range of click-intensiveness, so please don't "consolidate" our options *too* much.

  5. #125
    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    As you know, some classes (e.g. casters) have more active "clickies" than others, with melee classes typically having less.

    What are your thoughts/tolerances on active abilities as they pertain to your play preferences?

    Some sample answers (in case this makes it easier - feel free to answer any way you like):
    1) The more the merrier! The more I can do the better.
    2) Love them as long as they are offensive attacks and not complimentary abilities (e.g. boosts or mob debuffs)
    3) I like having them, just don't want to be forced to use them to be successful.
    4) Prefer passive abilities, otherwise gameplay is too demanding & complex.

    As usual I thank you for your feedback.
    Active clickies are fine, and in the case of things such as cleave, power attack, defensive stance, metamagics, lohs, rages.. actual abilities such as these enhance gameplay.

    Ideally, we'd see more combat maneuvers implemented into play.

    As far as BOOSTS.. they're simply awful. The Sprint Boost is compromised by no real need to increase its function as well as a limit on uses for an ability that doesn't require it, and the Skill Boost has too high a cost for the benefit of further increases. The haste and damage boosts are useful, but the immobility-causing delay when initiating a boost, combined with short durations and limited uses, make the boosts rather limited in use. Of course, the main flaw on balance and usefulness is the immobility issue, but in terms of appeal, a setup that allows more use (through regenerating abilities, lessened raw benefit for more duration, simple increase in effect, or other) is better.

    But, no, those aren't the problems that I based my initial statement on the topic on, that system quirk aside.

    It's the remainder of the boosts- resistance, DR, AC, etc- that have no real function, due to the combination of the three elements listed above, as well as effects that are far less useful in gameplay than the other boosts. All of them lack real gains over real durations. Of course, if their gains were shifted to stacking percentages as well, that'd clear that first issue right up.

    In any case, that balancing/interest issue aside, I have no problems with seeing more active abilities. PrE abilities such as Sniper Shot, Barrage, Arcane Bolt, these already offer some interesting variety to builds, and I can see the new enhancement system providing methods to further enhance these gameplay options.

    At the same time, as soon as the game starts basing its combat system in any way on WoW's active ability system, I'd leave- not in a fit of pique, but simply due to an overall dislike of such systems. After all, if that's what we wanted to play, we'd be playing WoW or LotRO ~_^

    In other words, while keeping it within the wide scope of D&D, go wild.
    Last edited by Dagolar; 04-25-2012 at 08:11 PM.
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  6. #126
    Founder coolpenguin410's Avatar
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    I'm probably one of the few people that would fall into number 4. It's not that I don't like the active combat system, it's just how I approach most RPG's. I prefer the passive abilities because they are a net gain when I forget to use active abilities or my twitch skills aren't up to snuff.

    For example, on all but 1 or 2 of my melees, I avoid the haste and damage boost clickies because I know I won't remember to use them. Also, I believe the game should have more tactically difficult battles where short term boosts aren't as efficient as a plethora of passive abilities simply because the battle is longer.

    I have a grand total of 10 shortcut keys and I don't use them very much. Mostly because I can't figure out how to hit those keys without taking either hand off of the mouse or movement keys.

  7. #127
    Community Member macubrae's Avatar
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    Default I'm a minimalist

    If I can get away with it, I like to have as few quickbars as possible mucking up my veiw. My capped fighter uses a single quickbar with all the necessities(cleave, great cleave, whirlwind, sunder, attack boost, kensai str boost, haste, titans grip clickie, and a couple potions). He scrolls for weapon and equipment changing, but one too many times did I attempt to cleave and instead changed out my bracers, but that's my fault.

    As a predominantly melee builder, I am anti-auto attack player. Even when I do play one of my rare casters, I like to change-up my spells. I never go in to click and watch timers.

    I guess what I'm saying is that I like to make my own choices. The more choices I can make the better. If the character used an AI similar to what the hirelings use, to cycle through the different feats and abilities, there would be facepalms a plenty when they attempt to trip a beholder or wraith(and they will).

    Clickies are fine. If I wanted to sit back and watch the game, I'd scroll through the ddo videos on youtube.
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  8. #128

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    I like click abilities quite a lot. I think the duration and cool downs of some need to be addressed. The Jet Boots as an example. I think a slightly shorter cool down would be nice. Not so much as it makes the FVS wings or monk abundant step under powered tho. Also the duration of come clickies should be increased. Monk ki moves for example. The ones that add energy damage to attack could be increased in duration so that it feels more like the pen & paper where it adds damage for a full combat round or 6 seconds. Just brainstorming here.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by macubrae View Post
    If I can get away with it, I like to have as few quickbars as possible mucking up my veiw. My capped fighter uses a single quickbar with all the necessities(cleave, great cleave, whirlwind, sunder, attack boost, kensai str boost, haste, titans grip clickie, and a couple potions). He scrolls for weapon and equipment changing, but one too many times did I attempt to cleave and instead changed out my bracers, but that's my fault.

    As a predominantly melee builder, I am anti-auto attack player. Even when I do play one of my rare casters, I like to change-up my spells. I never go in to click and watch timers.

    I guess what I'm saying is that I like to make my own choices. The more choices I can make the better. If the character used an AI similar to what the hirelings use, to cycle through the different feats and abilities, there would be facepalms a plenty when they attempt to trip a beholder or wraith(and they will).

    Clickies are fine. If I wanted to sit back and watch the game, I'd scroll through the ddo videos on youtube.
    I will use as many "Clicky" abilities as my hand can comfortably use VIA hotkeys. If my hand needs to come off the Mouse, or off WSAD i'm not going to use it.

    the result of this has been that I cant stand playing a light monk. just too many things to click rather than involving myself int he action. If I wanted to start at the center of the screen and click hotbars, I wouldnt be playing DDO.

    I'm sure many people are more dexterous than I though so they may be OK with a few more hotkeys. Or some folks may like clicking abilities rather than partipating actively in combat.

    There should be options for BOTH. hell, make the clicky a little more powerful even.


    for example: (not necessarily a good example, just one easy to do the math on)
    If I had options for +10 damage for 30 seconds with a 30 second cooldown, and a passive boost of +4 damage all the time. I'd take the +4 damage.

    Someone mashing that button every 30 seconds would do a little more damage than me... I'm ok with that.
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  10. #130
    Community Member Perikeles's Avatar
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    As long as the game doesn't devolve into what most other MMO games have.. ie. the action/skill rotation setup. "You need to get these abilities and rotate their use like this to get max dps" or w/e they do. I love the active combat where placement tactics and strategy matter. I wouldn't want to stand still and be constantly thinking "am I clicking things in the right order" Classes like monks with their combos are okay because it's something different from all the others but every class being a action rotation thing constantly would be terrible.

    Some people have said that they'd be okay with regenerating / endless action boosts and things like that. I personally like the regenerating turn undeads on radiant servants and the regenerating smites on paladins. Imo there needs to be a limit some of the abilities since having them on all the time would really devalue them and just make them into a chore to maintain much like different frenzies on frenzied berserkers. luckily barbarians are simple to play. There needs to be balance between when you are doing your best boosting yourself to do those epic feats of strength or things like it and when you don't need to be at your best and being your average self is fine.

    If you enable things like action boost damage or haste boost to be used constantly it just devalues them into clickies every 20 seconds or w/e. Sure you'd be doing more damage constantly but at that point why not just do away with them all together and make em passive if they are needed.

    In essence clickies are okay when they aren't required but are extra options to be used to eke out w/e you need to be done. A few more tactical combat clickies for character classes could be a nice addition.

  11. #131
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    I like the active clickies, and when I first started playing, I never thought I would say that. Now that I have capped my Pally, however, I find my fingers twitching everytime I play one of my other melees.

    Gotta say, though, I am a one hotbar dude for my combat clickies, if it doesn't fit on that one hotbar, I do without....

  12. #132
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    A tentative Yes to making melee combat more active and/or introducing more variety. I think there should be a disincentive to putting your char on auto-attack while you go make a sandwich. It is probably the thing people coming from another game notice most about melees .. there isn't that much to do.

    However, one thing that makes cooldown ability based games like WoW or SWTOR so mind numbingly monotonous at times is you typically settle on a tried and true sequence and do that over and over. And over. At that point, spamming a single attack doesn't seem so bad, especially if you are moving around.

  13. #133
    Community Member licho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    As you know, some classes (e.g. casters) have more active "clickies" than others, with melee classes typically having less.

    What are your thoughts/tolerances on active abilities as they pertain to your play preferences?

    Some sample answers (in case this makes it easier - feel free to answer any way you like):
    1) The more the merrier! The more I can do the better.
    2) Love them as long as they are offensive attacks and not complimentary abilities (e.g. boosts or mob debuffs)
    3) I like having them, just don't want to be forced to use them to be successful.
    4) Prefer passive abilities, otherwise gameplay is too demanding & complex.

    As usual I thank you for your feedback.
    1. There is optimal amount of clikies which makes me happy.
    If class has less than 5 clikies i dont touch it.
    The 10 is a number when we are starting to have fun.
    20 is a solid number of actions i like to have access to, even if not about to use them all in every single dungeon.
    40+ is overload. (most often there is to much copy paste at this number)

    And yes i have the feeling that some classes are less "active" than other. For example melees lack some variety of tactical feats, and transition classes (paladin, ranger) has short spell list.

    Also "The more I can do the better." OMG this is so true. Its great if you feel that toon CAN do different things, and its up to you which will be most usefull in that situacion. This totally sucks that you just can do anything cool. (here comes some bitter feedback about caster vs no-caster)

    2. I like them in all variety. There is a place for plain +x to dmg, for special attacks like trip, bleed, poison, and buff/debuffs. Variety is a key.

    3. As long as normal is doable with not grasp off game its all fine. Its ok if elite demands from players use of whole potencial of the class. Actually i prefer elite which demands some good smashing buttons action rather than "you need X dps, Y healing, and Z HP and you are golden".

    4. Its more about "how good the passive is?" For example feats like PA, or Khopesh, or 3x2WF are very solid increase of dps. And its hard to find a tactital/active feat which can competive with this one. I feel that passive feats are to good in this game.
    So its ends with everyone having 3x2wf, PA, IC, Khoep. No matter if fighter, rogue or ranger.
    And all it results in mobs just having more hp so they can stand against such build. Where is fun here?

    From the other side, there are players who prefer simpler gamestyle, and they also deserve the cookie. Or are looking for advantage in other aspects, like positioning or grinding. So giving passive option is ok. Just there should be some balance in what can be done with active feat in place of passive.

    Possible option could be double side feats, you get some passive bonus, which you can burn for active boost (loosing passive untill cld pass).

    Also: WHile i like clikiec from toon itself i dont like item clickies, since item clickies = grind, lack of inventory space, very short duracion from no real reason (like Shield CL1), nothing fun here.

    Another note: Im more writing from no full caster perspective. Full casters have a lot of clickies, and options, and have tool for most situacions..

    More notes: The game is rather poor with debuffs. Most time debuff either dont land, or are pointless since stuff dies faster.
    Last edited by licho; 04-25-2012 at 09:13 PM.

  14. #134
    Community Member Autolycus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    As you know, some classes (e.g. casters) have more active "clickies" than others, with melee classes typically having less.

    What are your thoughts/tolerances on active abilities as they pertain to your play preferences?

    Some sample answers (in case this makes it easier - feel free to answer any way you like):
    1) The more the merrier! The more I can do the better.
    2) Love them as long as they are offensive attacks and not complimentary abilities (e.g. boosts or mob debuffs)
    3) I like having them, just don't want to be forced to use them to be successful.
    4) Prefer passive abilities, otherwise gameplay is too demanding & complex.

    As usual I thank you for your feedback.
    I'm somewhere between 3 and 4.

    I prefer passive abilities and toggles to something I need to click every minute and a half to keep it going. If it lasts less than a couple of minutes I generally ignore it. I despise 30 sec boosts. Clickies that you must constantly use every few seconds get annoying fast. I really don't want to be forced to micromanage at that level to succeed.

    My cleric is already always clicking something, whether it's casting offensive spells, healing, auras, bursts, scrolling, or meleeing, all while trying to watch everyone's health bars and keep an eye on cooldown timers. Even though I gave him a good strength, I dumped Divine Might and I don't bother with the Divine Power or Favor spells either since they only last long enough to be annoying.

    I agree with the poster that said if you got rid of all the clicky items and all the fluff, it would not hurt my fillings in the least. IMO it would give DDO more of a D&D feel.

    D&D in PnP was more about what your character could do and nothing about how good you were at twitch controls and response time. Having an active combat system makes it more about player skill and less about the character's ability/skill set.

    Of course an interactive MMO has to have some level of control that will rely on player skill. I agree with the poster that said it has to be an equal balance so that there is some player skill is involved, but not so much so that it would put off all the people that don't like FPS / twitch games but still love DDO.

  15. #135
    Community Member HungarianRhapsody's Avatar
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    We also need clickies that will let us DPS slowly. And I mean ****ing slowly.

    I don't want to lose 50 dkp.

  16. #136
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    I personally like the fact that we have clickie intensive classes (like monk & paladin) and classes that can be fine with 1 or 2 clickies (like fighter).

    I think that some clickies need to be adjusted. some of the ideas I agree with are:
    1. monk base strikes should be extended to be a full combat round (6 seconds) this excludes some finishers (triple fire and touch of death for example).
    2. signature abilities such as Kensai power surge, death frenzy, endless fusillade, assassin poisons, repair construct, show time should have a recharge time at least double their respective active times.
    3. And last but not least clickies that recharge over time should start it's count down after the first use and the timer should not reset if the clickie is used again

    this is of course just my 2 cp

  17. #137
    Community Member extraocular's Avatar
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    The long casting time short duration paladin buffs are just obnoxious.
    If there is a wrong way to do it, I think that would be it.

  18. #138
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    I enjoy active combat 'clickies', from Monk Elemental attacks to melee combat abilities like Trip, Stun, Sunder, etc.

    They make combat more engaging. Would not mind more choices so long as I am not overwhelmed.

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  19. #139
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    I think they are fine the way they are. I have a feeling people use so many clickies they actually lose dps with all the swapping and pauses.

  20. #140
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    I love clickies, the more the merrier.

    Although, I think some durations of clickies should be increased for some classes. For instance, Power surge, frenzy & death frenzy, divine might & righteousness, showtime etc should be longer. If we are getting some more new clickies, I think the durations should be looked at before they are implimented.
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