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  1. #301
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    I'm with Lleren on this. It is all about screen real estate. There is only so much room. Me, I'm running the game at 1280x800 and 6 toolbars is about the max practical amount. S/He must be running at huge resolution to use 12 toolbars. Not all of us have the latest most expensive video cards and computers.

    You need to leave space on the screen for the actual game content. So, no more clickies. More passive skills. It is on the edge of too many clickies now. Though really, I'm somewhere between options 3) and 4) on this.

    But you have neglected to consider the most important factor, it is not gamelay complexity, it is screen real estate: there is only so much room on the screen for toolbars. I don't want all that pretty game content hiding behind a plethora of toolbars.

    edit: though a new clicky navigation paradigm could allow for more - something other than toolbars on the screen, or a modification of the toolbars - smaller icons / more buttons per bar? - something that uses the mouse wheel? - a treeview? - a tabbed toolbar? ...
    Last edited by DynaBonk; 04-28-2012 at 07:14 AM.

  2. #302
    Community Member Alrik_Fassbauer's Avatar
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    A newbie's question : What is the exact definiion of the term "clicke" here ?

    A wand - or in general "items with abilities/spells" ?
    Like bracers having a spell, for example, like Feather Fall ?

    Because - meanwhile I like to have wands, I have begun to become a bit picky bout items that contain spells.

    Because - I see the inventory as a kind o "enlarged utility belt", and I tend to hoard too many items if I think they contain useful spells my character could otherwise not use (either because he just cannot leaen the spell or because of too high UMD of wands "containing" that spell).

    what I find especially unsatisfying is that my Ranger cannot use a "Knock" wand due to too high UMD of it. And I have never seen an item containing that spell.

    An item that contains the "Knock" spell : that would be a great idea !

  3. #303
    Community Member kazlady's Avatar
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    Thumbs up The right stuff for the right guy

    I personally think having more clickies for casters and less for melee is backwards. If you think about it from an RP standpoint, a melee character (as long as they have no aversion to magic) will look for ways to improve his abilities. He can't learn spells like a wiz, sorc or bard as he doesn't have the time to take away from vanquishing the world's evil or just playing making mercenary money but an artificer can enchant some item that he just has to concentrate on and he can use it. "Clickies" as you call them are less useful to casters because in theory, they should be able to cast the spells either completely by themselves or by reading someone else's scroll. They essentially have an unlimited supply of casts of the spell as long as they are willing to pay for the scrolls or use the spell points. Having even 5 casts, unless put on a piece of gear with some extremely awesome bonuses, really is not that valuable. Therefore it would make more sense to have the melees have more "clickies" than the casters. Also, the casters are already having to deal with numerous clicks or keystrokes with their different spell combinations and multiple roles so for an extreme example, having 3 items with solid fog when they can mem the spell is unlikely to happen. But thats just my opinion :-)

  4. #304
    Community Member Gadget2775's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DynaBonk View Post
    **SNIP**

    edit: though a new clicky navigation paradigm could allow for more - something other than toolbars on the screen, or a modification of the toolbars - smaller icons / more buttons per bar? - something that uses the mouse wheel? - a treeview? - a tabbed toolbar? ...
    This can already be done. Remapping your mouse scroll wheel should enable fliping through the various toolbars. Alternately creating custom modifier keys (along with a reasonably good memory, will let you pop abilities on different bars without shifting to them. (ÍE: Ctrl + [1-0] = toolbar 2, buttons 1-0.)
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  5. #305
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    Yeah, I was aware of those. The idea is to make the toolbars take up less space on the screen somehow.

  6. #306
    Community Member TekkenDevil's Avatar
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    I think it is crucial with the current class balancing for casters to be more difficult to play.
    Therefore, more complex clicky management for them is a good thing.

  7. #307
    Community Member TheDjinnFor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    small bonus clickies just seem like a waste of effort to me.
    This.

    I find it really annoying to play melee sometimes because of all the short duration, fairly useless abilities you almost feel obligated to load them with in order to be self-sufficient.

    If I want to self-buff my barbarian I've got to chug a haste pot every 30 seconds and a rage pot every 90 seconds, plus frenzy and death frenzy every minute. That's not too bad, but there's also a ton of other stuff I can add on top of that: GH every 11 minutes, deathward every 7 minutes, etc.

    Worst is Madstone: I've been trying to practice keeping myself double madstoned as much as possible without losing any dps (I've got three pairs of boots so it's entirely plausible) because that adds a good amount of hp. To do so I need to have an eye on my buff bar at all times: I need to madstone, then rage, then wait till I get double madstoned and then immediately unequip my madstone boots. Then I wait till both madstone buffs are off timer, then I dismiss rage, then madstone myself again, then rage. All while trying to maintain haste and rage pots. As well as tripping and stunning enemies. As well as making sure I use my barbarian damage boosts. And lets not forget uncanny dodge, especially in epics. And Supreme Cleave whenever there are two or three targets. And often times I'm chain-chugging cure serious potions as I go from fight to fight. And all of this needs to be done with the right timing so that I'm not interrupting myself while actually fighting an enemy.

    Recently I've been thinking of making myself a displacement greensteel clicky. Guess what's going to happen then? Even more buffs to keep track off. Plus once I get Titan's Grip there's that to consider for certain situations.

    And this is just a Barbarian mind you, imagine if I were doing this on a Paladin. Or someone with ranks in UMD that I need to hotswap UMD gear to.

    Side note: Yeah, Frenzy really needs to be a toggle or something.

    Now, granted, I could probably forgo 90% of that and just rage + frenzy. I wouldn't lose a whole lot of effectiveness on my character by doing so. In fact, doing all those with the wrong timing will definitely lower your DPS and survivability. But, doing them right is a significant boost to my characters capabilities and thus it encourages me to attempt to do so. of course, it is a lot of work and the slightest mistake screws you over, case in point forgetting to take off your madstone boots, or putting them on too early and taking a stray arrow to the knee before you can use the active ability.

    All that is an "annoying" form of "active abilities". I'd rather be spending most of my time as a barbarian using active abilities like what the Paladin has rather than managing my buff bar with absurdly short duration buffs.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    As you know, some classes (e.g. casters) have more active "clickies" than others, with melee classes typically having less.
    This is dead wrong, in my opinion. While I'm sure that having tons of spell slots may mean you need more hotbars to fill them, the vast majority of play as (for example) a favored soul is using just a handful of them in each quest, and typically it is spaced out a lot.

    Sure you may "click" a lot at the beginning of the quest in order to mass buff you and your team, but after that buffs aren't really a concern. You might have a Superior Ardor Clicky to maintain, and you might also keep an extended Recitation and Prayer on the group.

    You'll be primarily using a combination of Blade Barrier and Heals/Mass Heals in the actual quest itself. You may also use a combination of Implosion, Destruction, Slay Living, and Enervation in non-epic non-raids. Divine Punishment is typically used on red names. As far as essentials go, thats about all you can do; obviously depending on your target you can try other spells (Undeath to Death comes to mind, as does Greater Command and Cometfall if you're missing CC).

    But almost none of those are "buffs" insofar as they lower my DPS by preventing me from attacking.

    Compare to my barbarian: needs to be tripping and stunning once every 15 seconds constantly so that he doesn't die or need a nannybot. Needs to spam supreme cleave when the opportunity presents itself (spam being once per second). That's already more clicking than the Favored Soul, who just needs to throw down a Blade Barrier and kite around for a bit half the time.

    Most importantly, I need to buff myself with the right timing so that I don't miss out on whacking enemies. Will need to make sure I refresh Death Ward if I don't get a buff, and GH if I don't get a buff. Need to also constantly refresh Frenzy and Death Frenzy every minute. Need to damage boost often, but has to be about 2 seconds before I reach a pack of mobs or the delay will cut into my DPS. Need to use uncanny dodge whenever spell damage is a concern, but again needs to be done before a fight happens so I don't cut into DPS. Need to keep myself hasted with pots, especially if I miss a group haste. Keeping myself double madstoned is optional but certainly possible as well. And any time I'm not doing the above, I should be chugging Cure Serious Wounds potions to heal myself, if only to top myself off but especially if I don't get heals to keep me up.

    That's at least three things that I need to be doing as I'm traveling from one pack of mobs to another that has a 30 second cooldown: damage boost, uncanny dodge, and chug a haste pot. Whats even more important to note is that if I kill said pack of mobs before the 30 second timer is up, I can't afford to activate them when they come off cooldown if I'm already in the middle of another fight because doing so would force me to stop attacking for a few moments and therefore eliminate most of the benefit they provide to begin with.

    You can play a melee twice as skillfully as you do a caster but get half the benefit for it. Only time melees truly outclass casters are when you need sustained DPS, like a raid boss beatdown. Of course if that's the case I'm no longer using many of those active abilities anymore because they cut into my damage output if I use them instead of just attacking.

    It's absurdly backwards: a class should be stronger when you use more of its active abilities. Right now melees are stronger in situations when you shouldn't use any of their active abilities and boosts, and casters are stronger in all other cases, where a melee could be using all of their short duration boosts with enough skill.

  8. #308
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    More options are usually a good thing for any class, especially for melee classes. So, having clickies are good.

    I'd like to see clickies have cooldown timers that correlate with ONLY other similar clickies though. This seems to work for most melee ability clickies, but not so much for items. I hate having to wait 3 seconds to click my GS stoneskin buff clicky, after using, say, an Archivist's Necklace minor mnemonic aid clicky. Those two aren't really related as one buffs my DR and the other grants some SP back. I'd understand it if I was using a Ring of Spell Storing or a Twisted Talisman, as those give similar benefits to the Archivist's (i.e. SP back). I think clicky cooldowns should correlate with ONLY similar clickies. It would save time buffing, reduce the time to start a quest, and make the game more efficient and enjoyable.

    Most of all, though, I'd like to see the hotbar/clicky lag fixed. It seems that when I equip items with long descriptions and benefits, (e.g. Epic Chimera Fang or GS tier 3 items) it creates lag. This also happens when I utilize UMD skill items or clickies that would require UMD or exist on items that have long descriptions and benefits (like the Fang aforementioned.) I thought this was to be fixed in the last update/patch, but it still seems to exist.

    Thanks.

  9. #309
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    I usually try to place as many clicky feats in my melees as I can, stunning blow, fist, trip, sap, improved sunder etc, but mosly because I want to be able to deal with mobs/epic mobs by myself if I feel like or need it

    as it is now a barb or fighter who is using none of the above will have a hard time killing a single trash epic mob, and on elite quests will need a lot more healing than one that makes use of all those tacticals

    it is more a matter of "though I welcome help, I could do quite nice by myself if you ( caster, healer ) wouldn't be here"

    I feel the use of these tacticals is the difference of playing a melee or playing correctly a melee

  10. #310
    Community Member Bolo_Grubb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    As you know, some classes (e.g. casters) have more active "clickies" than others, with melee classes typically having less.

    What are your thoughts/tolerances on active abilities as they pertain to your play preferences?

    Some sample answers (in case this makes it easier - feel free to answer any way you like):
    1) The more the merrier! The more I can do the better.
    2) Love them as long as they are offensive attacks and not complimentary abilities (e.g. boosts or mob debuffs)
    3) I like having them, just don't want to be forced to use them to be successful.
    4) Prefer passive abilities, otherwise gameplay is too demanding & complex.

    As usual I thank you for your feedback.
    I think there is a pretty decent balance right now. I prefer passive but don't mind having to use the various active clickies for tactics.
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  11. #311
    Community Member Perspicacity's Avatar
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    I'm a big fan of passive powers and while, as many have mentioned, having clickies does add another dimension to combat for melees that livens it up it does tend to allow for power gaming to go a little overboard. I have 2 and a half bars of clickies on my barbarian most of which buff strength. I can achieve an 82 strength and even though that only lasts for about 30 seconds its still rather gratuitous. Ther really should be a hard cap on stats of like 65 or 70 though that might result in toons that have 70 in 3 or 4 stats, not that that's easy to do.

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  12. #312
    Community Member Gurei's Avatar
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    Thumbs up clickies

    I am all for opinion numero uno. Clickies in ddo make it truly unique and add a layer of strategy via conservation and timing. However, I do think they are too tedious. For example, to use, say, a savant belt's 75% damage clicky, you need to equip that belt, wait the .6 seconds for it to register it is equipped, then use the belt's power, wait another .6 seconds before you're able to reequip your main belt.

    I expect people to hate what I'm saying and think im a hopeless moron, but think of it this way. In my preferred way, you would USE the belt, you just dont need to put it on for the ability to activate since what you're trying to use it for is active, not passive. All that would need to be done to apply this is to add the feature to clickies that you did for metamegics affecting select spells- equip or use (with equip being the default).

    I'm sorry madfloyd that my answer is only loosely related to the proposed question, but please understand this is my stance on clickies, and how to perfect a brilliant system
    Last edited by Gurei; 05-02-2012 at 11:26 PM. Reason: typo
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  13. #313
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    3) I like having them, just don't want to be forced to use them to be successful.
    This.

    Extreme was it when Monks were new i tried one out as they sounded really cool. - Had to delete him at level 12 as it didnt feel like playing DDO, but more like playing Piano.

    And a bit annoying, just not unbearable, is on a Barbarian, where i have to reactivate the Frenzys every minute. Each minute. For me this just feels like busywork-clicking (or rather hotkey-pushing). --> This should really be a stance.



    What i really like are Combat Tactics where you have to find a good situation to activate it to gain a nice advantage. Trip the Shaman about to Lighning Bolt you, stun the Cleric about to Cometfall the Cleric, intimidate the Giant hunting the @10%-HP Rogue, and so on.
    --> This is very nice and feels very involving.

    I already have enough item-clickys (Stoneskin, Shield, Haste, Rage, Displacement, Deathward, Heroism, ... ) and potions (Haste, Cure Serious, Rage, Lesser Restauration, Remove Curse, Remove Blindness, ...) to use when appropiately, even on a non-caster, that it feels enough. I want to concentrate and experience the active combat, not play manage-your-buffbar with all the shorttime buffs and when they need refreshing.


    What i really cant stand is the "clicky cooldown timer waiting combat system" that almost all other MMOs use. Before i´d play this again i´d rather play nothing.




    Quote Originally Posted by TheDjinnFor View Post
    All that is an "annoying" form of "active abilities". I'd rather be spending most of my time as a barbarian using active abilities like what the Paladin has rather than managing my buff bar with absurdly short duration buffs.
    I have to wholeheartedly agree with this, and also the uncited rest of his post. He really explained it en detail and i experience the same as he does. I am just not as eloquent in english as he is.
    Last edited by Noctus; 05-08-2012 at 09:41 AM.
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  14. #314
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Default Monk damage clickies and finishers

    When I played my dark monk to cap, all I really needed was Stunning Fist, the various elemental damage clickies, Unbalancing Strike, Fists of Darkness, Touch of Death and Quivering Palm. I never really used the finishing moves except for the Dark-Dark-Dark one, nor did I use the clickies that cause an elemental weakness in the target.

    Fists of Iron? I didn't see much effect. You're basically rolling the dice on that one.

    Eagle Claw Attack? I didn't see much point in increasing the number of grazing hits. I'd rather use up two feats in order to get Improved Sunder, which reduces fortitude saves and makes my monk's job alot easier.

    As for Way of the Tenacious Badger... nope, not much point. Monks already get meditation, and ninja spies can regenerate ki while in sneak mode.

    As for most of the finishing moves, they sound useful but anything that they can work on can also be stunned, in most cases, and stunning fist is much easier to use. Okay, the Earth-Wind-Fire and Dark-Void-Dark finishers are cool, and I was able to hit enemies (mostly Drow) in epics with them, but again, stunning fist is easier to use.

    Monk enhancements need to be looked at again, especially the finishers and the three enhancements listed above. I know there is a new enhancement system in the works, but since it's still a work in progress, this is the best time to say something. In the case of the finishers, they need to be a bit more spectacular for the amount of ki and time they take up.

  15. #315
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    Like both, as in I want to be capable if I'm passively playing because I'm tired and don't want to do the keyboard fandango, but I also like to sometimes (/often) play a more engaging char.

    I like the way it is different across different classes at the moment and so I can choose. If all classes became quite dependent on clickies for effectiveness I would lose my lazy play choices. Well, I'd at least be suboptimal which means my pride wouldn't let me play that way!

  16. #316
    Community Member vermentto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    As you know, some classes (e.g. casters) have more active "clickies" than others, with melee classes typically having less.

    What are your thoughts/tolerances on active abilities as they pertain to your play preferences?

    Some sample answers (in case this makes it easier - feel free to answer any way you like):
    1) The more the merrier! The more I can do the better.
    2) Love them as long as they are offensive attacks and not complimentary abilities (e.g. boosts or mob debuffs)
    3) I like having them, just don't want to be forced to use them to be successful.
    4) Prefer passive abilities, otherwise gameplay is too demanding & complex.

    As usual I thank you for your feedback.
    So far , i love clickies on all my characters.Passive ones or "buffs" as we call them.
    All have benefits from them .Deathward or greater heroism clickies benefit to all .
    Some ,like jump ones are not that important for one or 2 classes (barbarian for example )
    but critically important for others (cleric) .
    The summoning clickies are a very good ideas ,not very powerful or game breaking ,
    but funny and helpful in lost of situations.
    While reinforcing casters , the clickies are actually even better for non-casters ,and imo ,contribute to diminish a little the gap of power between the 2 , allowing red-bars to wield a bit of power of the blue bars.

    Special case of potency clickies (the ones giving +75% to spell effects) , they are the best thing of this game for some weird build like melee arcanes or battlecleric ,making them not as good as the casting specialists , but playable.

    Imo ,the current situation is great but i have a few ideas i think worth working on.

    -Maybe improve the duration : It wont affect much casters but will help red bars a lot.
    (for example the displacement clickies ,which are a bit short in my opinion ).

    -Also ,maybe release more clickies , like "heal" spell ones ,
    but limiting them per class to not boost blue bars too much .
    This should be ,if implemented ,an exception , and not the rule :
    DDO is about multiclassing ,choices and building your own toon.The opposite of WoW.
    And such clickies ,that already exist (hammer of life for example) should remain rare.

    -Special and unique clickies , not existing as spell could be a funny idea and give temporary boosts.
    (a clickies giving one charge of manyshot ? a clicky giving a hp regen ? etc )

    -Special class clickies ? for example a clickie that make next assassinated mob explodes ,spreading poison damage

    -Cosmetic clickies : a clickie that gives a sort of brilliant golden aura ? that makes u look like a specific mob ?
    A clickie that modify the appearance of a class feature (cleric aura , fvs archon ) or an item (XHrepeater looking like a repeating blackpowder gun ? )
    I dont know but it could be fun.

    -Weapon clickies : working in the same idea as spell potency boosting ones ,but for weapons (+50% on lightning damage of your litII ? one increasing the proc rate of things like desintegrate or incineration ?).

    -Clickies crafting : transmuting a clickie item in a sort of oil or i dunno what ,that you could apply on another item ,which will gain the clickie as one of its properties ?

    Making the most powerful items exclusive would be a good idea ,to prevent any exploit ,
    and making them just a temporary boost ,not a base feature of a toon.


    Concerning active clickies,they re just ignored most of the time:
    Nobody cares, except for fun, that a litII has 2 charges of chain lightning.
    Fireball ones are often used to break crates ,nothing more.
    Aside buffs/summons/heals/etc , most other clickies are useless to be honest.
    If you want to make them useful ,they must have very high DC/damage/duration
    otherwise ,they are just not worth the time spent to activate them (except for arty ,of course ).
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  17. #317
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    I always play a pure caster, and found clickies to be useless, most of the time. Occasionally, I might use a Lesser Restoration or Remove Curse item, but I wouldnt cry if I had to use scrolls or wands for the same purpose.
    In short, I prefer to use passive abilities, or wands and scrolls for my clicky needs.

  18. #318
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    I like active clickies, but hate the cooldown, Leap of Faith is a good example of how it should be done with limited charges and regeneration overtime. Some abilities should work like this:
    Sniper Shot: 3s cooldown, 5 charges, 1recharge per 15s
    Divine Sacrifice: 3s cooldown, 5 charges, 1recharge per 15s
    Other abilties may folow the same way:
    Manyshot: 3s cooldown, 5 charges, 1recharge per 15s (shared cooldown with Snipershot,)
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  19. #319
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    Clickies...

    Those for situational useful abilities like maneuvers are fine. The more, the better as long as you dont have 3+ short duration clickies that are always best used in combination.

    Those that you would want always active are less useful. If on gear, i would prefer a passive version, even if weaker. (e.g. Devotion vs Ardor) But that is just me and to have the choise is still fine.

    If you would want the ability always on, but get enough uses per rest to have them always active during fights, the clicking becomes more of an annoyence and it should become a passive ability.


    Clickies should provide additional tactical choices, not leaving the number of viable tactics the same but provide each one with the requirement to acivate an associated ability/gear.

  20. #320
    Community Member Aerendil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xveganrox View Post
    I'm going to go with option 1. I like that using clickies dramatically increases my character's effectiveness. I play a melee (18 rogue/2 fighter) and when I first capped I barely used any clickies. Now I use..

    Trip
    Hamstring
    Human Damage Boost
    Rogue Haste Boost
    Madstone Boots
    Gloves of the Titan's Grip
    Mabar Robe
    Shard of Xoriat
    GH/Invis/Jump ToD Clickies
    Haste clickies
    GS Displacement clickies
    Grease clickies
    Heal Scrolls
    Silver Flame Potions
    And of course, my favourite: Kormor's Belt!
    I'm a bit late to this post, but the above quote illustrates IMO the problem with clickies in DDO. Of that list, there are 2 active combat abilities, followed by either short-term combat buffs and/or equipment buffs (including greensteels, scrolls, potions, etc.).

    As a result, DDO becomes less about player skill and all about how many clickies you have, which I feel is problematic.

    The upcoming enhancement update suggests that there may be more passive or active *combat* skills, which is fantastic. That, combined with a few less "clickies" such as those listed above, could make DDO a very enticing game.

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