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  1. #241
    Community Member Aelonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This is an interesting point. Some players have stated that positioning relative to monsters and running around means they feel they have less time to push buttons, while others have said that pushing lots of buttons is part of the active combat they like.

    When someone says they like the active combat in DDO, we don't always know if they like more button pushing or less.
    For me being in touch with and aware of what's happening around my character is the active combat I enjoy. I played SWTOR for only a very short time because, in addition to the very poor character customization, every single fight... every single one went exactly the same. You organized your combat abilities by timer on your hotbar and hit the exact same sequence in the same order because that was what got the fight over with the fastest with as little effort as possible, with little or no resource usage. Boring. Mindlessly so. Especially since i hardly looked at the screen and really only watched the little squares on my hotbar.

    I haven't bought monk because while I was VIP I didn't enjoy the button mashing of the class. Thats not to say that I don't enjoy the judicial use of a combat ability... Manyshot cannot be spammed and saving it for its best use in a situation is fun. Same goes for Haste boost... though that should last a little longer. When the combat of the game becomes a mindless sequence of buttons to be hit at nearly every encounter or all about watching your cooldown timers... then we'll have problems. Currently its balanced fairly well with some classes playing that way if you want to and others having more passive abilities for those of us who don't enjoy that type of play.

    In a nutshell, some situational combat abilities should remain situational (ie Manyshot) some combat abilities could be turned into passive stances, and some combat clickies just need their triggering animations, durations, and cooldowns tweaked.
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  2. #242
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferd View Post
    Here's something to consider devs;

    How people actually use the hardware.

    I'm an old fart, (older than madfloyd) and I dont have the hand/eye coordination a lot of younger people do,
    so I use a mouse with a built in hot bar. Which has made my reaction times 100% faster.






    Also, as do some othr folks here, I have a visual impairment that won't allow me to toggle hot bars like other do. I'm not suggesting a change in set up because of this, Ive managed to work around that.

    I try to build my melees with minimal use of clickies, but I do wind up using them more often than necessary.

    So, that being said, maybe extending the timers, or any combination of changes to # uses, timers & cool down could help streamline the system.

    We have the single best combat system, and reverting to an automated system like other games would hurt more than help.
    I have to endorse this post on all point, including that mouse. I just got one, still getting the feel for it. The fact that I had to spend $100 to have enough easy to reach keys to play the game tells me the balance is in a bad spot. At the same time, I lasted 2 weeks in WoW before I fell asleep and deleted the game.

  3. #243
    Community Member sesobebo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This is an interesting point. Some players have stated that positioning relative to monsters and running around means they feel they have less time to push buttons, while others have said that pushing lots of buttons is part of the active combat they like.

    When someone says they like the active combat in DDO, we don't always know if they like more button pushing or less.
    Having capped a rogue after capping and outfitting a cleric and a bard (extremely fun, with lots of things to do in all kinds of situations), I find clickies coupled with combat abilities (a la damage boosts, evasions, hamstrings...) and positioning just enough engaging, to not lack anything to do and thus feel bored during those longer raid/epic boss fights.

    I also like this system, where active abilities/items provide better, but not overwhelming bonuses. It caters, I believe, to wide array of moods/playstyles.

    What I think would make active abilities and clickable items much easier to use is an UI, where the timers could be positioned (prefferably individually) closer to the middle of the screen. please?

  4. #244
    Community Member Ebondevil's Avatar
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    Some Clickies I like, others I don't, I have to admit I've never ever been a fan of one shot clickies, scrolls, x/day items (unless they're like the eternal wands which recharge over time).

    Clickies that you can use situationaly though to gain a benefit and then be locked out of using it again for a while I find myself much more likely to use, for example Trip and Sunder, otherwise I just find myself saving the clicky until I really need them and as a result end up not using them.

    Basically any clicky that 'runs out' I don't make much use of, any clicky that can be reused shortly after or doesn't matter when it's used I will use.

    Archivists necklace I use a lot of the time, it'll refresh after rest and once low on Spell points there's nothing to be gained by saving it for later. Mnemonic pots on the other hand I rarely if ever use, though I have a large collection 'just in case'.

    I would like to see more Combat orientated refreshable Clickies, things like the monk special attacks and stances I find very interesting, and honestly it would be rather nice if we could get the 'Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords' Classes added to the game, they effectively get a lot of 1 use per combat clickies to choose from but can refresh them while not in combat.

  5. #245
    Community Member kingfisher's Avatar
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    1 the more the merrier, especially on melee's
    Last edited by kingfisher; 04-26-2012 at 02:58 PM.

  6. #246

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This is an interesting point. Some players have stated that positioning relative to monsters and running around means they feel they have less time to push buttons, while others have said that pushing lots of buttons is part of the active combat they like.

    When someone says they like the active combat in DDO, we don't always know if they like more button pushing or less.
    I like active combat - it's not good to just park your toon in front of harry in part five and go get a drink until he drops. The key problem is button pressing - the UI. When you're playing, you're playing the character, not the keyboard. The problem is that the interface is sufficiently inefficient that you can't do exactly what you want to do in some circumstances, particularly when the mob is moving. In games without active combat the outcome of the raid is largely decided by gear - the outcome predetermined before you step foot into the dungeon.

    The solution isn't to stop the mob moving, or take away your ability to have some effect on the fight, but to make the interface less of an obstruction to the game. Automate some of the more repetitious elements - let me cycle through a preset routine of spells and clickies. Gimme macros.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    What are your thoughts/tolerances on active abilities as they pertain to your play preferences?
    I like them a lot! I think it makes combat much more interesting when I need to watch for buffs and boosts and I can use special attacks.
    However I do believe there is a balance to attain (there is such thing as too many clickies), and not everyone enjoys them, so I think it's important to keep varied build options with a broad range of clicky usage.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This is an interesting point. Some players have stated that positioning relative to monsters and running around means they feel they have less time to push buttons, while others have said that pushing lots of buttons is part of the active combat they like.

    When someone says they like the active combat in DDO, we don't always know if they like more button pushing or less.
    Those two examples aren't mutually exclusive. I find on my monk that on trash, I rarely ever use any clickie abilities other than the first 5 (stunning fist, dark attack, finisher, tod, quivering palm). On a boss that stands there and takes it from behind from 6-10 melee, I go through a completely different rotation using my mouse because I'm not repositioning constantly or running to the next mob.

    When I click at a boss on my monk, I'm adding ~20 electric damage or ~750 ToD damage or cursing the cold/electric CAD so Niacs/Eledars/Lit2's do purple instead of healing. When I click at a boss on my Barb, I'm either sundering or playing nanny to damage/haste boost, frenzy, death frenzy and rage itself. I'm not clicking as much on the barb, but it's less enjoyable being a watchdog timer than actively doing more damage.

    On a trash mob, the monk will dark strike, stun, ToD, touch of despair if I happen to have it up, all as often as I want (well, 15 seconds for ToD, 6 seconds for stun, less for everything else). On trash, the barb will trip and sunder and play watchdog to rage and both frenzies. The trip and sunder having significantly longer cooldowns, so it's less active than the monk overall.

  9. #249
    The Hatchery Rinnaldo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robdrew View Post
    Someone who is up close and personal is gonna do whatever it takes to kill the antagonist in front of them.
    This reminds me of the Dirty Fighting feat (from the Sword and Fist supplement for Monks and Fighters).
    Dirty Fighting (SF, page 6): You know the brutal and effective fighting tactics of the streets and back alleys.
    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...lefilter=dirty
    Now that would be a neat feat/clickie to add to the game.

  10. #250
    Community Member Phemt81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferd View Post
    Here's something to consider devs;

    How people actually use the hardware.

    I'm an old fart, (older than madfloyd) and I dont have the hand/eye coordination a lot of younger people do
    lol, you are a fart?

    Seriously, have you ever tried a gamepad? It's easy to setup and the game gain 1000% fun!
    How to revamp past life reward system <--- working again
    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    We absolutely planned for Fighter to still have Haste Boost. It's absolutely a bug. Any similar issues that look "wrong" to any player should be bugged.
    Developers should fix this

  11. #251
    Community Member Firewall's Avatar
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    I like an active combat system in the way that positioning, blocking and actively attacking a monster means active. I hate to push 20 buttons to boost my AC to viable levels for 20 seconds or item clickies that only last for 1 minute. It's ok to use boost before starting a big boss fight but i don't like to have to rebuff or use item clickies every 20 seconds or 1 minute. Item clicky boosts should last for at least 5-10 minutes and i'll be fine by using them.
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  12. #252
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    In general: Yes, many kinds of non-caster characters would be improved if they had a few more active abilities.

    But there are additional things to be worried about:
    1. Activation conditions. Compared to spellcasting, DDO has more things that can go undesirably wrong with active melee attacks: facing, reach, velocity, client/server position consistency... when a special attack is activated but it doesn't happen for some reason (aside from AC/concealment miss), the resources and cooldown generally shouldn't be spent.

    2. Unlike spellcasters, weapon-using characters have an autoattack which does meaningful damage they can use to fill spare time. Therefore, minor timing issues of the active abilities are important. Many times in the past, a designer has created an active ability but overlooked how the casting time or global cooldown has undermined what was supposed to be a simple benefit. For example, a Smite Evil with +100 damage which has a fancy swing animation isn't necessarily any better than a regular autoattack.

    3. Resources. There's a tendency for designers making a new active attack to simply stick on a cooldown of 10-60 seconds and then move on, instead of coming up with a fancier system for how often you can use it. But a simple individual cooldown is less fun than the alternatives (sometimes negative fun), because to get full advantage of the ability the player's got to click that icon on a strict schedule. The Sniper Shot from DWS is a prime example of the wrongness of that approach (Paladin Divine Sacrifice comes close). Instead of individual cooldowns, things like sp, ki, or regenerating charges are better.


    Before adding new active abilities, I suggest fixing the ones that already exist. For example, Slicing Blow has been in DDO forever, and it's always been terrible. The Cleave family isn't that bad, but it's still broken in subtle, important ways.

  13. #253
    Community Member t0r012's Avatar
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    I play a monk so a keyboard virtuoso be I.

    I will say though I 99.5% of the time use mouselook (remapped to middle mouse click) which means my mouse is busy steering.
    It is great for control in the active combat of DDO but it means my clicks with the mouse is limited as is my finger reach from the wasd so i mapped the keys closest for easy access. tilde ,r,t(voice chat), f,g,h,v all remapped to hotbar2.
    problem is with a monk I need more keys than I have ready access to. I mean stunning fist, blow, trip, quivering palm, smite , jade strike , tomb of jade , dismissing strike, various tiers of elemental strikes, fist of light, finishing move button it gets way too much to reach.

    Sure some of that is my choice of control being mouselook but I have tried non mouselook mode and I don;t like giving up the control more than I dislike giving up easy access to every ability.

    Also have to say that on a 1920 x 1080 24" screen the hot bar icons are a bit small for ease of clicking with the mouse and the pointer is a bit small and doesn't quite stand out enough if I need to get to something "right now".

    --------------------
    PS
    any chance of getting a way to throw finishers without doing the associated strikes?
    I mean i'll take a global cool down and a brief pause and even a activation ki cost penalty to just go right to throwing a Align the Heavens or Walk of the Sun without having to throw a fire , light, fire combo.
    Move along , Nothing to see here

  14. #254

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This is an interesting point. Some players have stated that positioning relative to monsters and running around means they feel they have less time to push buttons, while others have said that pushing lots of buttons is part of the active combat they like.

    When someone says they like the active combat in DDO, we don't always know if they like more button pushing or less.
    It depends on the button. Monks have lots of buttons, lots of movement, and a very active combat style that I just love. Each of the buttons does something. Very fun.

    Casters have lots of buttons. Love them too. Every button does something. Very fun.

    Having to keep boosting damage for a barbarian and double-checking to make sure the frenzy and death frenzy have not expired is not fun. All of the buttons just re-apply short term boosts. Can still have active combat, for instance my Evasion/backstabbing barbarian has to keep moving, but the buttons do not add to the fun. They subtract.

    Fighters have some of that too (repetitive short term boosts) but fighters also have trips and stuns and so forth and that is both active and very fun.

    p.s. I also play Star Wars and in that game combat is ONLY about pushing the buttons. There is little or no tactical movement, no dodging or blocking, no flanking, just a lot of buttons that you have to push constantly. That is NOT active combat and is very not fun. I play the game for reasons other than the combat system. Really, I play in spite of the combat system.

    ---

    TL;DR: I am somewhere between 1 and 2 but dislike repetitive short-term state settings like Frenzy and Death Frenzy (which should work like stances)
    Last edited by geoffhanna; 04-27-2012 at 08:04 AM.

  15. #255
    Founder Solmage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This is an interesting point. Some players have stated that positioning relative to monsters and running around means they feel they have less time to push buttons, while others have said that pushing lots of buttons is part of the active combat they like.

    When someone says they like the active combat in DDO, we don't always know if they like more button pushing or less.
    This is a difficult topic for this reason among others. Some players on melees just stand around and swing, so for them having more clicky abilities means 'more active'. Others (like me) will use one enemies body to block his 4 other buddies, jump just as he casts out of the way, and re-engage once the spell flies harmlessly by. To me, too many abilities makes this gameplay impossible: so too many abilities = less active.

    To ellaborate, having a few active abilities is nice, but having more than a few is a huge hindrance. I get trip, stun, haste boost, improved sunder. Then there's haste boost and surge. I can't handle more than that without becoming stationary or resorting to scripts. (I know several people who use scripts in gaming keyboards and such for this reason). It's one of the main reasons I don't like playing monks, but love rangers. Just the right amount of clickies, and multishot for when it comes in handy. (I also like kensai fighters even though surge annoys me, but barbarians have one pointless clicky too many with the 2 frenzies each 60 seconds)

    If the game allowed macros that be one thing (press 1 key = activate frenzy1, then when available activate frenzy 2 or press ice strike unless on cooldown then press fire strike else press ...) but without such functionality too many active abilities really hinder you when in close range.

    As a caster I can use more abilities because they're ranged and I have a little more time to react, but there's also very real limits:

    I love playing casters, but at any given time I try to limit my active abilities (I only use 1 toolbar and switch between toolbars for buffing/debuffing/utility/gear/etc) with shortcuts) because of this. This means 10 different offensive spells of which I switch about 3-4 depending on the type of enemies I'm fighting, and a couple of permanent ones hotkeyed outside of the toolbar (like displacement and self heal)

    So while I can dodge a beholder's disintegration with great ease, I can't for example use 5 copies of reduce maximize cost clicky in combat, I can only use 1 at most. If instead of 5 charges for 6 seconds it'd be 1 charge for 60 seconds, only then could I use multiple copies of it.

    So for the love of all that's holy, no more 6 second item boosts with 3 charges, please. Make it a one charge of 18 seconds if you must, it's driving me nuts.

    So in summary: too many short term abilities = bad for active game play, unless your idea of active gameplay is standing around 'actively' pressing buttons.
    Last edited by Solmage; 04-26-2012 at 03:31 PM.
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  16. #256
    Founder Solmage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geoffhanna View Post
    It depends on the button. Monks have lots of buttons, lots of movement, and a very active combat style that I just love. Each of the buttons does something. Very fun.

    Casters have lots of buttons. Love them too. Every button does something. Very fun.

    Having to keep boosting damage for a barbarian and double-checking to make sure the frenzy and death frenzy have not expired is not fun. All of the buttons just re-apply short term boosts. Can still have active combat, for instance my Evasion/backstabbing barbarian has to keep moving, but the buttons do not add to the fun. They subtract.

    Fighters have some of that too (repetitive short term boosts) but fighters also have trips and stuns and so forth and that is both active and very fun.

    p.s. I also play Star Wars and in that game combat is ONLY about pushing the buttons. There is little or no tactical movement, no dodging or blocking, no flanking, just a lot of buttons that you have to push constantly. That is NOT active combat and is very not fun. I play the game for reasons other than the combat system. Really, I play in spite of the combat system.
    Have to agree, short term boosts like damage boost aren't a lot of fun, although haste boost strangely enough is fun enough. (the faster swing rate is fun, it really does feel like you're going hyper). But frenzy and death frenzy seem pointless, just have them be an active toggle and call it a day. Surge seems a bit pointless too for it to last only 60 seconds, it's annoying. It's even more annoying when I have to forget to turn it on because I'm busy doing something actually active, like dodging.
    Devs: Thanks for making Druids available to VIPs without the pack. This more than anything, has made me want to buy the pack.

  17. #257
    Community Member Hanam's Avatar
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    Active abilities are good. You just need to change one thing:

    1) Find a way to remove the delay after activating a "boost". It's simply not fun to activate your Haste boost only to wait 1 second before actually attacking. (Is this the global Cooldown in effect?)
    Revenants

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley_Nicholas View Post
    Divine Might should be made passive.
    Or reduce the activation animation to 1/10th of what it currently is. It takes far too much time to activate now.
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  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    When someone says they like the active combat in DDO, we don't always know if they like more button pushing or less.
    I prefer situational awareness over button mashing. I want to be looking at my screen, not at my keyboard.
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  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    What I dislike: Pure damage 'clickies'. Things like Monk elemental strikes (leaving out the fact that those build specials). Very high impact abilities (Manyshot, Fullisade, Touch of Death) are fine, but the minor ones that you need to hit every 1-2 seconds to be optimal cross the line, IMO.
    I share identical dislikes about the monk. Activating 4-5 elemental strikes in 6-second cool down period so you are "optimal" is more tedium than is reasonable. Aside from the elemental strikes, I love the implementation of the monk class.
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