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  1. #221
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Speaking of Clickies one thing that clutters my screen with TONS of hotbars is equipment...for example on my Bone Knight I have...my UMD stuff, my buff stuff, my tanking stuff, my DPS stuff, my monster type specific stuff and a few others...If you gave us the ability to make equipment sets a la Weapons sets but a FULL set it would go a long way to clearing up some of those hotbars making room for more clickies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  2. #222
    Community Member adam1oftheround's Avatar
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    These conditins seem reasonable to fine tune:

    1. Leave the option for no change
    2. Allow us to use combat feats as metamagic feats by turning them on and off by weapon set just as spells have metamagics apply diffetently to each spell.
    3. Make them entirely passive as just a simple percent chance to proc on every attack.
    4. Hot bar several buff spells, clickies, stance, equipment items etc. into one click of the hot bar.


    1. Some people look at change as if it is being forced on them. So for them, leave the option to continue as things are, but for the rest of us please make things better.

    2. I like the idea of turning Metamagics on or off by spell. Could this be done by weapon set too?

    While using this weapon set auto use cleave as often as it cools down, auto use trip as often as it cools down, auto use Improved Sunder as often as it cools down.

    By turning cleave, sunder or trip on, it should either proc randomly or as often as it cools down.

    You will still have the option to turn off auto and do it manually, but I like to know it will hit as soon as it cools down.

    3. No action needed procs are possible by making things more passive, you could just add 6% of the time your attack also procs a trip, cleave, sunder or stunning blow effect.

    This is referred to as boss beater, surround boss, turn on auto attack and make coffee while healers do the work.

    4. It can be a hassle to buff your standard 7 buffs, equip your 5 sneek gear items, cast invis then head down the hall. If you could do that chain of events on one hot bar, would you?

    Now your next hot bar could be switching to your AC gear, going into stance, and casting rage, before using madstone booties all by clicking your AC hotbar button, would that be nice? All of those steps combined into a stance prep button?

    As this is a long chain of events, it would be necessary to have a way to cancel or interrupt the chain of events, in case of aggro, or if you clicked the wrong hot bar button; so you don't waste 12 seconds with the wrong buffs too often.

    Next stance, UMD Heal scroll, this includes charisma item, UMD item, luck ( head of good fortune ) maybe a skill boost, some healing amp equipment and then activate that heal scroll.

    Note: As this is a long chain of events, it would be necessary to have a way to cancel or interrupt the chain of events, in case of aggro, or if you clicked the wrong hot bar button; so you don't waste 12 seconds with the wrong buffs too often.
    Last edited by adam1oftheround; 04-26-2012 at 09:39 AM.

  3. #223
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    I saw a few posters touch on this but I feel compelled to try and further expand upon the defination of and difference between a clickie, spell, and special attacks.

    Combat Feats such as sunder and trip are not clickies. They are attacks that if effective act as soft controls and debuffs. These abilities should infact not be on cooldowns at all as they currently are.

    Spells: Are not clickies EVER. they are spells and in this games design the blue bar is our ammo, granted we are expected to cast many more spells in a session then in PnP, including buffs and heals, because of flawed game design. You see any content even on max dif, should never be harder then 6 naked fighters can do. If power gamers can eat it alive that is thier fault, and asking for challenge while standing around in top of the line gear is beyond silly.

    Clickes: are items or enhancment gained abilities or spells that can only be used a few times per rest phase. They actually touch more closely upon the original PnP spell casting limits, including many who rest the second they can to get back a few rages. It actually proves to me that actual proper PnP casting could have been ported into an MMO, but they also would of had to stress that EVERYONE uses weapons at least some of the time, but the kiddies wanting to spam fireballs ruined that pretty much.

    Rage is an inherent clickie: meaning you get it as part of your class based power spectrum, and must be able to rage to actually be comparable to fighters.

    Haste Boost is an enhancment clickie: meaning it comes from something you chose to add to your build via optional enhancments.

    Planar Girdle is an example of an item clickie. It last long enough and is able to be aquired multiple times to become a part of a build. However nothing in the game should ever be scaled around a rogue type for example NEEDING this or a similar buff spell to be able to perform his job. Nor should a fighter need it to feel competent in a fight.

    In parting please remember D&Ds entire class system pre 4E( which isnt an actual game but rather a cancer upon the pnp gaming industry) was built upon a spectrum rather then a balance.

    In D&D after lvl 9 or so, the power gap between mortal men of the mundane, and mystically mighty meta-humans is meant to exist. A lvl 20 fighter could expect to become a king. A lvl 20 wizard becomes king of the world or leaves it behind to explore space and time.

    Some might have argued and not without reason that allowing wizard,clerics, sorcerers, and eventually favored souls was the real flaw to balance. I felt the same about the conan MMO, that players had no business having that kind of power in an RPG where some if not most players tend to favor warrior types and certainly for the story setting.

    Now in Eberron the land of Magic Punk, I always felt the real issue was even having the mundane classes, and worst of all creating things like capstone feats to discourage multi classing, as imo in this setting, a character without some skill in wizardry, or a few years serving one of the churches seems very unlikely.

    or let me put it this way, a person in eberron with little to no grasp on how to cast spells is in general about as out of place as a midevil nun at a las vegas adult expo.

  4. #224
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adam1oftheround View Post
    Three conditins seem reasonable to fine tune:

    1. Leave the option for no change
    Thats incredibly unreasonable to ask...thats like saying when they release the new enhancement system they should allow people to continue using the old one if they wish.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  5. #225
    Community Member MnaSidhe's Avatar
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    Haven't read the whole thread yet...

    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    What are your thoughts/tolerances on active abilities as they pertain to your play preferences?
    ...
    As usual I thank you for your feedback.
    I think that the active clicky abilities are fun, allowing for a greater variety on my builds and toon-playing styles, although I don't enjoy spending AP on them just because they are prereq for some PrE, that don't necessarily contribute much to the success of the character!
    No longer reading the Forums.

  6. #226
    Community Member TPICKRELL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This is an interesting point. Some players have stated that positioning relative to monsters and running around means they feel they have less time to push buttons, while others have said that pushing lots of buttons is part of the active combat they like.

    When someone says they like the active combat in DDO, we don't always know if they like more button pushing or less.
    For me its both, with the ability for me to match my tactics to the situation.

    If I have enough armor class that I'm not taking damage, I may stand still and concentrate on maximizing relevant attacks. If I'm getting hit, I'll reduce the strikes a bit in exchange for maneuvering so that I minimize the incoming attacks.

    The ability to do either and to switch between them at will, situationally is what makes DDO my game of choice.

    That's also why I hate short time based melee clickies that don't have obvious effects. Using those means I have to watch clickie timers instead of concentrating on active combat. Clickies like haste boost are an exception, because you can tell when you haste boost runs out without looking at a timer....

  7. #227
    Community Member Vazok1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This is an interesting point. Some players have stated that positioning relative to monsters and running around means they feel they have less time to push buttons, while others have said that pushing lots of buttons is part of the active combat they like.

    When someone says they like the active combat in DDO, we don't always know if they like more button pushing or less.
    Monk is a very good example for something like this, lots of different buttons doing lots of different things, however, if someone likes monk but not the buttons, they dont have to, the only one they really lose out on not pushing is stunning fist. and thats a feat not an enhancement.
    In my opinion think of it like a reward system, if you press the button you get a treat ie more damage, mob de-buff like imp sunder fort de-buff, etc.
    lots of things to do is great for those of us who like that, but they shouldnt be KEY parts of a prestiges damage or something, which i guess is what your getting at. Where is that balance? well, thats your problem :P
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  8. #228
    Community Member Vazok1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MnaSidhe View Post
    Haven't read the whole thread yet...

    I think that the active clicky abilities are fun, allowing for a greater variety on my builds and toon-playing styles, although I don't enjoy spending AP on them just because they are prereq for some PrE, that don't necessarily contribute much to the success of the character!
    i think the new enhancement system will get rid of the 'must have' pre-reqs for prestiges so your ok there
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  9. #229
    Hero AZgreentea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This is an interesting point. Some players have stated that positioning relative to monsters and running around means they feel they have less time to push buttons, while others have said that pushing lots of buttons is part of the active combat they like.

    When someone says they like the active combat in DDO, we don't always know if they like more button pushing or less.
    Its not that I dont have time to push buttons. I just dont have time to fumble with buttons that are out of reach (meaning I have to take my fingers off my 'drive' keys) or require me to hit them on the hotbar with a mouse click (and risk not activating them because I didnt double click). In the heat of combat I stick with my top 5 hotbar buttons. I like lots of buttons, but in practice I only actively use up to 5 at a time. The rest sit there for that slower part of quests in between major fights.
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  10. #230
    Community Member VonBek's Avatar
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    Not reading 200+ posts...
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    3) I like having them, just don't want to be forced to use them to be successful.
    I like having them, just want to have a choice. Reflecting on that just a bit: I get frustrated when I trigger a feat like trip or smite, and find it wasted because the attack missed. If I mash the button for Smite, I'd like it to take effect (the next time I hit) rather than evanesce. I like triggering attacks, a bit more than waiting on weapon effects like deception to proc. Perhaps without the illusion of control, I feel distanced from the benefit.
    So, I hear that one day we may get Familiars...
    ....I want a Velociraptor!

  11. #231
    Community Member ferd's Avatar
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    Here's something to consider devs;

    How people actually use the hardware.

    I'm an old fart, (older than madfloyd) and I dont have the hand/eye coordination a lot of younger people do,
    so I use a mouse with a built in hot bar. Which has made my reaction times 100% faster.






    Also, as do some othr folks here, I have a visual impairment that won't allow me to toggle hot bars like other do. I'm not suggesting a change in set up because of this, Ive managed to work around that.

    I try to build my melees with minimal use of clickies, but I do wind up using them more often than necessary.

    So, that being said, maybe extending the timers, or any combination of changes to # uses, timers & cool down could help streamline the system.

    We have the single best combat system, and reverting to an automated system like other games would hurt more than help.


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  12. #232
    The Hatchery Roland_D'Arabel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eazyrider View Post
    As I stated above the only "clickie" I'd consider casters having are the relatively new DoT spells.
    Well, actually, don't forget about things like superior efficacy, superior ardor etc. Many casters use "clickie" items to boost their spell power and a lot of these are short duration boosts.

    I'm not arguing against clickies, and most of the classes I play tend to use/need a lot of them but some of them have seriously slow activation animations (looking at you Paladin) that should be fixed. Like others have said, it is an essential part of an active combat system. I don't want to just click my mouse button once and have auto attack do the rest.
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  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    When someone says they like the active combat in DDO, we don't always know if they like more button pushing or less.
    Both. For my caster I enjoy jumping around powerful enemies and wearing them down with spells. For my melee I enjoy running up to enemies and start beating them down. And on my healer I like keeping an eye on my allies' health, beating down the enemies in front of me with my weapons, and occasionally dropping a cometfall down to keep my enemies from running around.

  14. #234
    The Hatchery Nospheratus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This is an interesting point. Some players have stated that positioning relative to monsters and running around means they feel they have less time to push buttons, while others have said that pushing lots of buttons is part of the active combat they like.

    When someone says they like the active combat in DDO, we don't always know if they like more button pushing or less.
    Consider this:
    Each class has more or less "button pushing" than the previous, be it caster or not. Even then, depending on build choices, it can have more or less.

    IMO, the amount of "button pushing" is ok in DDO. I would just extend the duration of Divine Might and reduce it's activation time
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  15. #235
    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This is an interesting point. Some players have stated that positioning relative to monsters and running around means they feel they have less time to push buttons, while others have said that pushing lots of buttons is part of the active combat they like.

    When someone says they like the active combat in DDO, we don't always know if they like more button pushing or less.
    Active movement and abilities such as cleave, sunder, assassination, etc, add a dynamic, boredom-removing element to combat (especially for the otherwise extremely bland fighter class). Adding more options in this category, and clearing up the contact issues (most notably with spells) when mobs get especially closeby in melee would only enhance gameplay.

    Boosts, aside from lacking in functionality in some cases, disrupt combat by forcing a delay upon use, last for too brief durations, and have too much of a WoW-esque combat system feel.
    That is: Most mobs die very fast in DDO. You'll activate a boost, and the mobs'll die by the time it activates, and it'll disappear by the time you get to the next one. On the few chances you have to utilize it better against mobs, the removal of the attacks you'd have gotten during the delay counters much of the benefit of the attacks made with the boosts.
    The few times boosts can be handy are against bosses, and even then their structure makes them limiting at times, especially with dynamic boss situations, such as Velah's inferno, given their short duration and limited number of uses.

    And, emphasizing again, that's just for the small number of boosts that actually have benefit worth their use.
    The main problem with clickies in DDO is their structure and balance, not their inclusion, which would welcome further attention.
    Last edited by Dagolar; 04-26-2012 at 10:11 AM.
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  16. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This is an interesting point. Some players have stated that positioning relative to monsters and running around means they feel they have less time to push buttons, while others have said that pushing lots of buttons is part of the active combat they like.

    When someone says they like the active combat in DDO, we don't always know if they like more button pushing or less.
    If it means standing still and watching cooldowns, waiting for the clickies to come back and then hitting e.g. 1, 2, 4, 3, and then waiting again - then No.

    If it means attacking a group of monsters, tumbling to the side to avoid a ray spell from a caster in the back, hitting Wings to get to said caster quickly, pushing Trip to get it down, killing caster, jumping over an obstacle to get less melee mobs attacking my back, pushing Heal, pushing Comet Fall to get some of the melee mobs who followed me around the obstacle on their butts before attacking them, then a big Yes.

    There's different kinds of clickies. A cooldown-vigil is not fun - waiting, watching, yawning. But using clickies in the heat of combat, at the right moment for maximum effect, is.
    IMO.
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  17. #237
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This is an interesting point. Some players have stated that positioning relative to monsters and running around means they feel they have less time to push buttons, while others have said that pushing lots of buttons is part of the active combat they like.

    When someone says they like the active combat in DDO, we don't always know if they like more button pushing or less.
    There is definitely an issue with a very broad range of control setups, and how effectively people can manage many buttons.

    The way I'm set up, I have no problem maintaining full movement, and immediate access 20 or so activated abilities. I use middle mouse, two side mouse buttons, Q, R, and F by themselves, and in combination with 3 different modifier keys. All that means I can continuously cycle through Ki Strikes, Healing Curse, Stunning Fist, Kakun-do, plus other abilities as needed, all while making full use of tactical positioning and movement.

    But, for someone with a plain two-button mouse, that only uses the default number keys, I think playing a Monk the way I do would be nearly impossible.

    I think, probably the best way to approach it, is to provide both Passive and Active ways to improve characters, towards similar ends. If two enhancements serve a similar purpose (say, boosting DPS), then the Active should provide more benefit than the Passive, if played optimally. But the Passive is more reliable.

  18. #238
    Hero rdasca's Avatar
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  19. #239
    Hero Gkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
    This is an interesting point. Some players have stated that positioning relative to monsters and running around means they feel they have less time to push buttons, while others have said that pushing lots of buttons is part of the active combat they like.

    When someone says they like the active combat in DDO, we don't always know if they like more button pushing or less.
    That's exactly what I was thinking.

    I think the balance is in the middle somewhere. When I played my first pali a little while back I came to feel like all my attention was spent on watching timers and I wasn't actually FIGHTING anymore. I didn't like it.

    On my Barb back in the CR2 days, it wasn't bad with "rage", "madstone rage" and "damage boost", in fact it was fun that with a couple clicks you were in a "power up" mode. However, in the age of frenzie, I find that it is beginning to get short duration clickie-centric. I have to watch multiple frenzie timers, maybe some titan's grip clickies, plus all the old stuff. I feel like I can either be less effective and enjoy the fight, or fully effective and look at timers.

    Obviously some things need to be a trigger clickie (trip, sunder, cleave, spells, etc), but its all about using that approach in balance.

    For abilities that you can technically do indefinately, I like the monk stance approach. Going back to that Barbarian, let me click "frenzie" and I'll be in Frenzie mode until I unclick it (much like switching fire stance on and off).

    For abilities that you need for balance to limit use of (such as damage boost) consider giving us less boosts, but longer lasting. Right now these are often saved for "big" fights and all you are doing is timer watching and remashing, no skill or fun there. I'd rather click the darn thing and let it last me for a couple minutes. (really anything under 1 min in duration is just annoying)

    Also consider combo sets as an option. I know many people are grabbing macro-enabled mice to do this, but let's let the game do it. Set it up like weapon sets. For example, a caster might want a "buff" button that runs through a set of standard buffs (normal cast times, interuptable, just saves clicks for routine stuff)

    Specific to monks, let me hotbar the finishing moves so that if I want instead of clicking air-light-air-finisher I can click the air finisher icon and it will trigger air-light-air-finisher (normal time, interuptable) without the need to have finger spasms and be tightly watching the timer bar to time each move perfectly. Let me just say "now I need a <XXX> buff/debuff/damager", select it, and the combo happens. This would make good, fun, strategic play easier.

  20. #240
    Community Member Barhai's Avatar
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    Not a huge fan of buff clickies in combat as they tend to do the opposite of what they should: activating them drops your dps, and then the boost duration is quite small. Some are much worse than other: frenzy is fine (quick activation, 1min time, big boost), divine might is not (long activation, 1 min is nice but effect is not impressive), some are situational (haste boost, damage boost). And there's a limit to how many you can realistically have at the same time and not be a pain.
    The special attacks, I really love but it's becoming out of control: on a light monk you're looking at 2-3 different elemental hit, trip, stunning fist, sunder, dismiss, smite, jade, distance stun, void strike, 1-4 special elemental attack (eagle strike, unbalancing...), quivering palm... I like playing with a gamepad and it's a tad difficult with a monk (I don't even want to talk about my monkadin, I feel I need to have a foot activated keyboard to play this one).
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