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  1. #41
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    I repeat:

    You can't sell cakes when your free samples taste bland.
    The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
    Hey Devs! Let's give Warpriests and Eldritch Knights some loving, kay? :<

  2. #42
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    Default Best low level quests for newbies

    Hi´,

    if you like to convince your friends about this great game, take them to Irestone Inlet in harbor or Shan-to-kan in the market. Both are one of the best quests with a very deep immersive atmosphere.

    Regards Bo.
    PS.: I know that STK is not F2P, but maybe spend a guest pass
    EU player since release, US player since winter 2009.

  3. #43
    Community Member SiliconScout's Avatar
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    For the record I think 3BC doesn't get run much not because of it's content but because the damned island is so freaking big and you have to keep running back and forth to run the chain.

    It's just not worth the time to spend 25-30 minutes of an hour of questing running to the quests / givers.

    The theme is great the design is just too sprawling.
    Last edited by SiliconScout; 04-24-2012 at 05:24 PM.


  4. #44
    The Hatchery Galeria's Avatar
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    IMO-

    People don't leave DDO because of a few sewer quests.

    They fail to get hooked because they don't "get it."

    They don't get the complicated build process, understand the difference between feats and enhancements, why things don't actually do what the description says, what effects stack and what don't and generally how to "beat" the game in a weekend.

    It's overwhelming. I can't blame them. But I also can't blame the fact that the first few quests are sewers or warehouses.

    The complexity of succeeding in this game takes a learning curve and is nearly impossible to do without a real person's help.

    But it's a heck of a lot easier to say, "I don't like the sewer quests" than to admit that it's just too hard to figure out or that you'd rather play something easier.
    A PUG is like a box of chocolates
    Get people to read your post.

  5. #45
    Community Member Sarisa's Avatar
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    My sister specifically quit because:

    1. She felt overwhelmed with quests/options once she got out of Korthos.
    2. She got horribly bored with the sewers and warehouses, and how everything looked the same.

    Part of what was said about the lack of guidance (and the newer guide system in Korthos is a nice help) is quite true. The blandness and dullness of what you have between the easy and fun introduction in Korthos, and the fun of the Houses is still a big issue.

  6. #46
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galeria View Post
    IMO-

    People don't leave DDO because of a few sewer quests.
    Wow, what a very broad-sweeping statement.

    I'm sure you have some facts to back this up, of course.

    Especially since so many people have said that their friends left because of sewer quests, and have expressed complaints about them themselves >_>
    Last edited by Zachski; 04-24-2012 at 05:45 PM.
    The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
    Hey Devs! Let's give Warpriests and Eldritch Knights some loving, kay? :<

  7. #47
    Community Member extraocular's Avatar
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    I had three friends quit the game right around the time they were finishing up the harbor quests.

    All of them mentioned how a lot of the quests looked similar, but they did not seem to have that problem in Korthos.

    So half the people I introduced to the game quit at about the same point in game progression.
    I realize that it is a very small sample size, but I think there is something to it.

    There is just something boring about the harbor for new players, and yes I helped them from the start, making a new char each time and running all the quests with them.

  8. #48
    Community Member varusso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    I repeat:

    You can't sell cakes when your free samples taste bland.
    OK since you keep jumping up and down screaming look at me --

    Fortunately, they arent selling cake,s they are selling steaks, and they are quite well seasoned. Obviously, people *ARE* buying what turbine is selling. The fact that the game (and these forums) are even here attests to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    Wow, what a very broad-sweeping statement.

    I'm sure you have some facts to back this up, of course.

    Especially since so many people have said that their friends left because of sewer quests, and have expressed complaints about them themselves >_>
    "So many people" as you say it is a handful -- less than a dozen -- posting on the forums. Thats a drop in the bucket. I know HUNDREDS of people who have NOT left because of sewer quests -- and there are thousands more that I dont even know who also have not left. You are one of them.

    If you dont like sewer quests, thats fine. But lets not pretend they are "killing the game" or "driving everyone away". They're not.

  9. #49
    Community Member varusso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xynot2 View Post
    100% agree. I tried to +1 rep ya but the last +1 rep was to you and the forum doesnt allow you to +1 rep the same person twice.

    #1 Turbine has to make money and if you get passed the 1-6, you will probably end up buying something. They cant give it all away and the way it's designed, you can get to level 20 with spending a miniscule amount of cash in comparison with other MMOs.

    #2 This isn't WoW and with the way Turbine has set things up, it never will be (THANK GYGAX!).

    The game has progressively gotten easier and easier and adding low level content like that makes it easier to keep from getting bored and prevents you from spending real money. I WANT you to spend real money. Why? Because I dont want the people from WoW flooding DDO because it's basically free to play here. I want this to remain a quality community.

    That being said, some stuff could be remade into a more appealing visual than being in a sewer. But leveling 1-6 is so fast anyway that it's nothing to worry about. Especially with the new veteran2 status where you can start at lv 7. It's probably the reason that 3BC isn't being shown as in line for anything new.
    Regarding 3BC
    http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...07&postcount=7

  10. #50
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by varusso View Post
    OK since you keep jumping up and down screaming look at me --

    Fortunately, they arent selling cake,s they are selling steaks, and they are quite well seasoned. Obviously, people *ARE* buying what turbine is selling. The fact that the game (and these forums) are even here attests to that.
    Doesn't matter if it's cakes or steaks.

    When you give out free samples, you want the samples to be of the same quality of the food that you're actually selling. You want people to be impressed with your product. If the sample is bland, people will be under the impression that the actual steak you're selling is bland.

    Obviously, Turbine is doing something right, but don't defend bad business practices. Please.

    "So many people" as you say it is a handful -- less than a dozen -- posting on the forums. Thats a drop in the bucket. I know HUNDREDS of people who have NOT left because of sewer quests -- and there are thousands more that I dont even know who also have not left. You are one of them.

    If you dont like sewer quests, thats fine. But lets not pretend they are "killing the game" or "driving everyone away". They're not.
    No one is pretending that they are killing the game or driving everyone away. You, however, are pretending that there isn't a problem at all. It's possible for a problem to exist without it being a game killer. Just look at the General Discussion forum some time.

    The fact is, if Turbine improves the visual style and variety of the F2P level 2-6 quests, they will be getting more business. This is a good thing.

    Every customer counts to some small degree. We want Turbine to succeed as much as you do. We want MORE players to join.
    The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
    Hey Devs! Let's give Warpriests and Eldritch Knights some loving, kay? :<

  11. #51
    Community Member griffin_230's Avatar
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    This is a competitive marketplace now. If F2P newcomers get bored by such bland environments early on, they are not going to want to stay around too long and they will go somewhere else. If you make the early environments look more immersive/interesting and varied, it's more likely newcomers will want to stay on and learn more about the game. The information about the game and its mechanics is out there, whether it's the official forums, ddowiki or something else. If people get hooked early, they can easily find that information on the internet.

    We all want to GROW the game in the face of increasing F2P competition. Most people here have TRd I suspect and have a great fondness for DDO. It wouldn't hurt to have Turbine have another look at the F2P early levels and try to make them more visually varied and interesting for newcomers who are not necessarily hardcore D&D fans.

  12. #52
    Community Member EpiKagEMO's Avatar
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    not to be funny or anything, but heroes need a place to start. the sewers are a great place to start

    I've actually had a couple of friends leave because of the sewers, but maybe its better. why might it be better? my friends that left have very low patience and are very childish. Seeing them at higher level content... they would drive the older players crazy.
    A rogue is basically, "Look at me or die."

  13. #53
    The Hatchery Galeria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    Wow, what a very broad-sweeping statement.

    I'm sure you have some facts to back this up, of course.

    IMO= In my opinion
    A PUG is like a box of chocolates
    Get people to read your post.

  14. #54
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galeria View Post
    IMO= In my opinion
    And what have you based your opinion on?
    The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
    Hey Devs! Let's give Warpriests and Eldritch Knights some loving, kay? :<

  15. #55
    Community Member psi0nix's Avatar
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    Have to agree on the whole sewer / kobold theme, some are good, it IS a staple of the genre to have these types of dungeons.

    There is nothing wrong with having a good mix of "interesting" and "visually appealing" content, some texture changes to the walls / floors, perhaps some nice lighting effects or even oversized monstors (same Cr) to spice things up a bit would be nice.

    I find the game has "segments" of styles like the sewer kobold thing, then the sewer / trog thing, the undead thing (which are really cool).

    The newer content does have a much better range of variety, I realise it's difficult to "go back" and re-make dungeons but it certainly would go a long way to enticing new players to actually stay on.

    Even as a P2P player I find the sewer / evil temple style quests are overused.

    3BC is a good example (if somewhat sparse) of a low level visually appealing area - we won't mention the XP or loot value of the area

    I can't say I've had anyone leave specifically because of this, but I can see how it would increase the chance of players staying.

  16. #56
    Community Member Truga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psi0nix View Post
    3BC is a good example (if somewhat sparse) of a low level visually appealing area - we won't mention the XP or loot value of the area
    3BC is awesome, but with the distinct lack of loot/XP, it really should be F2P. That said, I think MadFloyd said something about 3BC loot getting something...

  17. #57
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    I realize it wouldn't make much logical sense, but make some of the sewers have different textures. Remove the water ramps and replace them with regular ramps. Make some watery areas shallower.

    Heck, make the environments look less samey, and I really don't care about the enemies.

    It's just difficult to go from a place that has a variety of textures (Korthos) to a place that... doesn't. (Harbor and Marketplace)
    The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
    Hey Devs! Let's give Warpriests and Eldritch Knights some loving, kay? :<

  18. #58
    The Hatchery Galeria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    And what have you based your opinion on?
    15+ years as a usability analyst. And trying to introduce people I know to the game.

    Anecdotal evidence is only relevant to the person interpreting it. Since no one has paid me for an in-depth user-centered interaction design study on new user retention in DDO, I can only give you my observations based on a relatively small data sampling.

    Ergo, I identified my post as my opinion and not a professional review.

    What's your opinion based on?
    Last edited by Galeria; 04-24-2012 at 11:32 PM.
    A PUG is like a box of chocolates
    Get people to read your post.

  19. #59
    Community Member Thundaga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by varusso View Post
    LVL 1-6, quests IN sewers:

    [26 quests]


    LVL 1-6, quests NOT in sewers:

    [79 quests]
    People will mostly re-play the same dungeons over and over again either for exp, named loot, to help friends, to try them out on different difficulties, and/or because they'll often make new characters to test out different classes. The starting quests in the Harbor happen to be sewers, so they will be the ones to be re-played most of all. Also realize that some of the LONGEST low-level quests take place in sewers, such as Butcher's Path and WW. It's not queer to FEEL like all you're doing is trudging around in dirty sewers.

    It's for good reason, though! Don't forget you're in the Harbor. Story- and lore-wise, from what I've gathered, the Harbor--as well as the Marketplace--is having problems with an increased infestation of Kobolds in their sewers and drains. I believe these sewers were also once home to the Kobolds before the people took over (but I may be wrong about that). So the general public will, without doubt, have problems with Kobold thefts, kidnappings, and other annoying, mischievous antics...and that smell! That horrible, horrible smell!

  20. #60
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galeria View Post
    15+ years as a usability analyst. And trying to introduce people I know to the game.

    Anecdotal evidence is only relevant to the person interpreting it. Since no one has paid me for an in-depth user-centered interaction design study on new user retention in DDO, I can only give you my observations based on a relatively small data sampling.

    Ergo, I identified my post as my opinion and not a professional review.

    What's your opinion based on?
    My opinion is based off of my own experiences as well as what people have said in this thread. Nor is it a wide-sweeping statement based on an absolute.

    Either way, I would be more careful of your word choices if I were you. Absolute opinions such as "No one has ever left the game because of sewers" are remarkably easy to prove wrong (If even one person has left the game because of sewers, you are wrong), but non-absolute opinions (such as "Most people tend to leave the game, not because of sewers, but because of how difficult it is to build and player a character") tend to be more accurate and more well-grounded in reality.

    Also, you essentially said "In my opinion, everyone's friends who stopped playing after level 7 lied to them. everyone." Might want to be careful about what your word choice implies in the future :P
    The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
    Hey Devs! Let's give Warpriests and Eldritch Knights some loving, kay? :<

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