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  1. #1
    Community Member TekkenDevil's Avatar
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    Default More low level F2P content that aren't actually sewers.

    I know there's a bunch of stuff like Cerulean Hills and Searing Heights, but it's just not enough.
    Literally everyone I tried to get into DDO has complained about and quit mainly because all we ever did was run around in sewer levels.

    Sewers in video games have a heavy dogma on them in general. One has to wonder how many new players DDO had lost because of having to rotor root the pipes 24/7 due to being lowly F2P peasants.

  2. #2
    Community Member karnokvolrath's Avatar
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    I agree, the harbor is very mundane to a new player.

    I have had many friends try this game and get bored early because of this.

    I tell them to wait and that better monster will be soon. Still, the kobald/sewer quest are overly used to the point of mind numbing.

    There really needs to be two level 1/2/3 quests added that can show more of what this game has to offer.

    I garentee its costs you players.
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  3. #3
    Community Member EnjoyTheJourney's Avatar
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    Very good idea = /signed

    There is another issue, though, that will turn off many, many newer players. If you step out of the sewers to head outdoors, invisible enemies with trip attacks--apparently with a high respawn rate--are spread through various areas in Cerulean Hills.

    Invisible enemies *or* enemies with trip attacks seem fine. But, why have invisible enemies with trip attacks *and* a high respawn rate in a level 2 outdoor map? Who thought that would do anything other than frustrate players who are still trying to figure out which way to point their sword?

    I'd like to add one more suggestion for new low level content, beyond "no more sewers, please", which would be to pick invisible enemies *or* trip attacks on mobs, but not both, and especially not both with a high respawn rate.

  4. #4
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Even a few small changes to existing quests such as altering the ambient lighting to make some of them darker (like Depths of Darkness in House D), or swap out the Kobolds for Orcs in one or two Harbor quests would break up the monotony. I know that sewers are the motif for the Harbor - but they all look pretty much identical. Variety, even in small touches, would go a long way to helping end the "been here before/done this too" feel of the Harbor.


    The Harbor is a bit of a drag because it all feels the same. Kobolds in a sewer - rinse/repeat.

    I also have had a few friends try the game and leave before getting to the goodness past the Harbor, simply because the Harbor is so dreary and boring. Which is a shame, because the friends of mine which have toughed out the Harbor and made it to the goodness beyond it (thank goodness STK is such a good chain) have loved the game.

    I know it's not mission-critical to DDO... but giving the Harbor a good sprucing up would go a long way to engaging new players and retaining them. I mean, Korthos is a great introduction to the game - it's really a shame that the Harbor feels like a letdown afterwards.
    Last edited by Memnir; 04-21-2012 at 07:02 PM.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Xenostrata's Avatar
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    /signed.

    Need new low level quests WITHOUT
    • sewers
    • kobolds/orcs/hobgoblins/etc
    • Knee-Deep Water (kill it!)
    Fear the Koala.
    Jial, Wyllywyl, and an ever-changing list of alts.

  6. #6
    Community Member Ganolyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnjoyTheJourney View Post
    Very good idea = /signed

    There is another issue, though, that will turn off many, many newer players. If you step out of the sewers to head outdoors, invisible enemies with trip attacks--apparently with a high respawn rate--are spread through various areas in Cerulean Hills.

    Invisible enemies *or* enemies with trip attacks seem fine. But, why have invisible enemies with trip attacks *and* a high respawn rate in a level 2 outdoor map? Who thought that would do anything other than frustrate players who are still trying to figure out which way to point their sword?

    I'd like to add one more suggestion for new low level content, beyond "no more sewers, please", which would be to pick invisible enemies *or* trip attacks on mobs, but not both, and especially not both with a high respawn rate.

    There are no respawning monsters in the outdoor quests/wilderness areas in the harbor. You are simply missing some hidden ones and encountering them later.


    While I agree the sewers are overused in the harbor, I try to break up the monotony by going over to the warehouse district and doing some of the warehouse quests before I go into the sewers again.
    Anál nathrach
    orth’ bháis’s bethad
    do chél dénmha

  7. #7
    Community Member Robai's Avatar
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    /Signed

    Actually couple years ago I had doubts about this game too, until I hit a true quest of my style:
    Irestone Inlet

    After that quest, it was like this: "Yes, this is the game I'll play".

  8. #8
    Community Member TekkenDevil's Avatar
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    Well a redesign would be okay, especially if we could get some sort of a color overhaul.

    But what I really had in mind is maybe 4-5 new F2P quests spread around levels 2-6. These would be very fun and varied quests, following the style of stuff like Assault on Stormreach or especially the Madness chains.

    Acute Delirium level of design. The devs pulling out all the stops as if it were a full p2p adventure pack.

    I always tell people who are about to quit how they're missing out on so much cool stuff that comes in level 10 and above. Why not bring all that great content to the beginner f2p are?

  9. #9
    Community Member Cyndrome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TekkenDevil View Post
    Sewers in video games have a heavy dogma ...
    I don't believe this means what you think it means.

    Not that I really have any clue what you think it means.

  10. #10
    Community Member varusso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TekkenDevil View Post
    I know there's a bunch of stuff like Cerulean Hills and Searing Heights, but it's just not enough.
    Literally everyone I tried to get into DDO has complained about and quit mainly because all we ever did was run around in sewer levels.

    Sewers in video games have a heavy dogma on them in general. One has to wonder how many new players DDO had lost because of having to rotor root the pipes 24/7 due to being lowly F2P peasants.
    LVL 1-6, quests IN sewers:
    1 Redemption
    1 Sacrifices
    1 Stopping the Sahuagin
    2 Missing in Action
    2 Durk's Got a Secret
    2 Garrison's Missing Pack
    2 Information is Key
    2 The Sunken Sewer
    2 Walk the Butcher's Path
    3 Home Sweet Sewer
    3 The Cloven-jaw Scourge: Blockade
    3 The Kobold's Den: Clan Gnashtooth
    3 The Kobold's Den: Rescuing Arlos
    3 The Sacred Helm
    3 The Swiped Signet
    4 Freshen the Air
    4 The Cloven-jaw Scourge: The Caverns of Shaagh
    4 The Depths of Darkness
    4 The Depths of Despair
    4 Venn's Trail: Clan Tunnelworm
    4 Venn's Trail: Venn's Fate
    5 Halls of Shan-To-Kor
    5 The Depths of Discord
    5 The Depths of Doom
    5 The Snitch
    6 Purge the Heretics



    LVL 1-6, quests NOT in sewers:
    1 The Cannith Crystal
    1 The Storehouse's Secret
    1 The Collaborator
    1 Heyton's Rest
    1 Necromancer's Doom
    2 Misery's Peak
    2 Arachnophobia
    2 Bringing the Light
    2 Haverdasher
    2 Protect Baudry's Interests
    2 Recovering the Lost Tome
    2 Retrieve the Stolen Goods
    2 Stealthy Repossession
    2 Stop Hazadill's Shipment
    2 The Kobolds' New Ringleader
    2 The Miller's Debt
    2 The Smuggler's Warehouse
    3 An Explosive Situation
    3 Endgame: Marguerite
    3 First Strike
    3 Kobold Assault
    3 Redfang the Unruled
    3 Setting the Wards: The Lower Cathedral
    3 Setting the Wards: The Patriarchs' Crypt
    3 The Captives
    3 The Crypt of Gerard Dryden
    3 The Friar's Niece
    3 The Hobgoblins' Captives
    3 The Old Archives
    3 To Find a Witness: Return to the Sanctuary
    3 Where There's Smoke...
    4 Come Out and Slay
    4 Dirty Laundry
    4 Endgame: The Archbishop's Fate
    4 Irestone Inlet
    4 Proof is in the Poison
    4 Repossession
    4 Rest for the Restless
    4 Stand Your Ground
    4 The Bookbinder Rescue
    4 The Stormreaver Fresco
    4 Whisperdoom's Spawn
    4 Yarkuch's War-plans
    5 A Small Problem
    5 Archer Point Defense
    5 Brood of Flame
    5 Ghost of a Chance
    5 Guard Duty
    5 Legend of Two-Toed Tobias
    5 Partycrashers
    5 Prove Your Worth
    5 The Chamber of Insanity
    5 The Deadly Package: Agent of the Darguul
    5 The Deadly Package: The Stronghold Key
    5 The Lair of Summoning
    5 The Mystery of Delera's Tomb
    5 The Stones Run Red
    5 Tomb of the Burning Heart
    5 Tomb of the Crimson Heart
    5 Tomb of the Immortal Heart
    5 Tomb of the Sanguine Heart
    5 Under the Big Top
    6 Redwillow's Ruins
    6 Caged Trolls
    6 Dead Predators
    6 Doom of the Witch-doctor: The Way to Zulkash
    6 Doom of the Witch-doctor: Zulkash, Herald of Woe
    6 Gladewatch Outpost Defense
    6 Mirra's Sleepless Nights
    6 Return to Delera's Tomb (Quest)
    6 Ruined Halls
    6 The Bloody Crypt
    6 The Bounty Hunter
    6 The Chronoscope
    6 The Forgotten Caverns
    6 The Iron Mines: Freeing Achka
    6 The Iron Mines: Justice for Grust
    6 The Troglodytes' Get
    6 Valak's Mausoleum ( aka Dead Girl's Spellbook )

    There are ALOT more quests NOT in the sewers than IN the sewers. Even if you limit it to Korthos and Harbor, there are at least as many NOT in sewer as IN sewer. And there are alot of quests, so thats alot of non-sewer content. It is a staple of fantasy-themed RPGs (tabletop, console, and MMO) to have lots of low-level sewer/basement type quests, or stuff in the wilderness very close to town. Thats where the low level stuff lives. In addition, there is a unifying story arc that ties alot of the sewer quests in harbor together. I highly doubt that the sewer quests are costing DDO any significant number of players as opposed to whatever other thing they dont like about this particular MMO.

    And I believe the word you were looking for was stigma, not dogma -- though the assertion itself is incorrect.

  11. #11
    Community Member TekkenDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyndrome View Post
    I don't believe this means what you think it means.

    Not that I really have any clue what you think it means.
    From wikipedia:
    "Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by.... a particular group...."

    In my case meaning:
    A lot of people who play games hate sewer levels almost by instinct, because they believe that sewer levels are lazy, uninteresting environments that shouldn't be in games.

  12. #12
    Community Member TekkenDevil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by varusso View Post
    There are ALOT more quests NOT in the sewers than IN the sewers. Even if you limit it to Korthos and Harbor, there are at least as many NOT in sewer as IN sewer. And there are alot of quests, so thats alot of non-sewer content. It is a staple of fantasy-themed RPGs (tabletop, console, and MMO) to have lots of low-level sewer/basement type quests, or stuff in the wilderness very close to town. Thats where the low level stuff lives. In addition, there is a unifying story arc that ties alot of the sewer quests in harbor together. I highly doubt that the sewer quests are costing DDO any significant number of players as opposed to whatever other thing they dont like about this particular MMO.

    And I believe the word you were looking for was stigma, not dogma -- though the assertion itself is incorrect.
    Yeah well tell that to the people who complain the game looks the same in every dungeon. We might be out of the sewers during the Baudry chain, but everything still looks the same. Sewers, caves and Warehouses all over the place. Everything is mossy green, brown, or a combination of the two. As others have said, some coloring, lighting updates certainly wouldn't hurt.

    I don't mind personally. It didn't bother me and I saw only the fun gameplay. But for a lot of people, they let stuff like this get in the way. And sure you could say the game's not for them, but from Turbine's point of view, that's not exactly acceptable. They need more people, even when they aren't hurting for more people.
    Last edited by TekkenDevil; 04-23-2012 at 02:46 PM.

  13. #13
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by varusso View Post
    LVL 1-6, quests IN sewers:
    <snip>
    Good post! I was thinking that most of my time was sewer after sewer as well but after reading your post, I realized it's more that it FEELS like kobold/sewer spam.
    There are indeed lots of other places to go and things to kill.

    This is probably why the kobolds still hate us. In fact, I'd be willing to question a few just to confirm it.
    <-Curelite Bottling Company->

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  14. #14
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    The marketing tactic being used REQUIRES there to be not enough content in any level range. Thats part of the entire point of Free-to-Play marketing. They dont want people to stay free to play. Their intentions with it are for people to use Free-to-Play as somewhat of a trial with no time limit on it, then become Premium or VIP - part of which is buying content, either directly or in association with the plan.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #15
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    The Harbor is a bit of a drag because it all feels the same. Kobolds in a sewer - rinse/repeat.
    Its just not real low level MMO gaming unless the player is smashing rats with a club in a sewer somewhere. I think this is specifically stated on page 12 paragraphs 2-7 of section 1a of the obligatory MMO design code, and they had to have a hearing for DDO to see if kobolds qualified as "rats". It was decided that they do, but to curb any rules lawyering to the contrary, they put real rats in some places in korthos and the harbor as well just to be sure.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #16
    Community Member Kadriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by varusso View Post


    LVL 1-6, quests NOT in sewers:
    1 The Cannith Crystal Warehouse
    1 The Storehouse's Secret Warehouse
    1 The Collaborator Evil-temple like place
    1 Heyton's Rest Looks like sewers
    1 Necromancer's Doom Evil-temple like place
    2 Arachnophobia Warehouse
    2 Bringing the Light Looks like sewers
    2 Haverdasher Looks like warehouse+evil temple
    2 Missing in Action Looks like sewers
    2 Protect Baudry's Interests Warehouse
    2 Recovering the Lost Tome Looks like sewers
    2 Retrieve the Stolen Goods Warehouse
    2 Stealthy Repossession Evil-temple like place
    2 Stop Hazadill's Shipment Warehouse
    2 The Kobolds' New Ringleader Warehouse
    2 The Miller's Debt Warehouse
    2 The Smuggler's Warehouse Warehouse
    3 An Explosive Situation Warehouse
    3 Endgame: Marguerite Evil-temple like place
    3 First Strike
    3 Kobold Assault
    3 Redfang the Unruled Looks like sewers+warehouse
    3 Setting the Wards: The Lower Cathedral Evil-temple like place
    3 Setting the Wards: The Patriarchs' Crypt Evil-temple like place
    3 The Captives
    3 The Crypt of Gerard Dryden Evil-temple like place
    3 The Friar's Niece Evil-temple like place
    3 The Hobgoblins' Captives Evil-temple like place
    3 The Old Archives Evil-temple like place
    3 To Find a Witness: Return to the Sanctuary Evil-temple like place
    3 Where There's Smoke...
    4 Come Out and Slay
    4 Dirty Laundry Warehouse
    4 Endgame: The Archbishop's Fate Evil-temple like place
    4 Irestone Inlet
    4 Proof is in the Poison Looks like sewers
    4 Repossession Looks like sewers
    4 Rest for the Restless Evil-temple like place
    4 Stand Your Ground
    4 The Bookbinder Rescue
    4 The Stormreaver Fresco
    4 Whisperdoom's Spawn
    4 Yarkuch's War-plans


    Lvl 5 up it does start to have some diversity, but up to lvl 4 to me at least it seens we got 3 themes going (with seweres beeing the biggest one), with very ew quests that escape those. And the ones that do only show up at premium packs, so if you are trying to make someone like the game and go vip, they are not viable

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by varusso View Post
    <SNIP>
    Nice list, but the OP was talking about F2P quests. Of the 27 "In Sewer" quests that you listed, 22 of them are F2P; of the 78 "Outta Sewer" quests, 36 of them are F2P. So the OP is correct when saying there's alot of sewer action since 1/3 of all the f2p quests from level 1 to 6 are sewer based.

  18. #18
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its just not real low level MMO gaming unless the player is smashing rats with a club in a sewer somewhere.
    True, true.
    It may be canon and/or traditional - but it's also uninteresting, boring, and frankly the Devs of DDO can do better.
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  19. #19
    Community Member varusso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadriel View Post
    Lvl 5 up it does start to have some diversity, but up to lvl 4 to me at least it seens we got 3 themes going (with seweres beeing the biggest one), with very ew quests that escape those. And the ones that do only show up at premium packs, so if you are trying to make someone like the game and go vip, they are not viable
    Heytons Rest looks like a crypt, not a sewer.
    Bringing the Light looks like part of a castle or a warehouse, nothing like a sewer.
    MIA is supposed to be in the sewers section, must have copied it wrong.
    Lost Tome looks like a tower with a partially flooded crypt.
    Redfang looks nothing like a sewer, every bit like a multi-floored warehouse.
    Proof is in the Poison only has a couple of very small sections that look like sewers. The rest of it looks like a huge warehouse designed by Picasso. And not a kobold in sight on this one

    Anyone who has played any type of fantasy RPG knows that the major themes you have jotted down are part and parcel to the whole genre, especially at low levels. As someone posted above, most games are beat a rat with a club. our vermin are kobolds.

    Quote Originally Posted by danotmano1998 View Post
    Good post! I was thinking that most of my time was sewer after sewer as well but after reading your post, I realized it's more that it FEELS like kobold/sewer spam.
    There are indeed lots of other places to go and things to kill.

    This is probably why the kobolds still hate us. In fact, I'd be willing to question a few just to confirm it.

    The other thing to consider here: As a new player, you have access to very limited resources. Sure, it sucks fighting the same mob over and over, but the upshot is that when you grab your first bane weapon, it goes alot further than if you were fighting lots of different types of enemies. The monstrous humanoid bane newbie wpns are great in korthos, and the reptilian bane (easy to get from collectors and constantly available on AH) are great vs the kobolds and trogs that infest the harbor. Later when you start finding other gear, you can get "universal" beat-sticks, but at the start -- it needs to be kept simple so as not to overwhelm the new player with too many different things.

  20. #20
    Community Member varusso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TekkenDevil View Post
    Yeah well tell that to the people who complain the game looks the same in every dungeon. We might be out of the sewers during the Baudry chain, but everything still looks the same. Sewers, caves and Warehouses all over the place. Everything is mossy green, brown, or a combination of the two. As others have said, some coloring, lighting updates certainly wouldn't hurt.

    I don't mind personally. It didn't bother me and I saw only the fun gameplay. But for a lot of people, they let stuff like this get in the way. And sure you could say the game's not for them, but from Turbine's point of view, that's not exactly acceptable. They need more people, even when they aren't hurting for more people.
    The dungeons look very much like i would expect them to look at that level in a game named for DND, to include how they are stocked. One of the things that struck me the most when i started playing was how well they created the appearance of the DND world that I envisioned as a DM. Any tabletop vet will tell you they spend most of their time at low levels slogging around in sewers, marshes, dank caverns, crypts, and other such undesirable places that the higher level adventurers cant be bothered with anymore. Its like earning your dues in the adventuring world. The elite adventurers are too busy saving the world from invading armies and demigods to bother with the mundane, disgusting quests that the everyday folk need done for them. Thats where the lowbies cut their teeth and make a name for themselves

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