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  1. #1
    Community Member EnjoyTheJourney's Avatar
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    Default Two ways to complete "Keep Coyle Alive" missions

    Pulling a "Coyle" suggestion out of the obscurity of another thread ...

    Make keeping Coyle alive an optional quest objective for both missions in which he is present and be done with years and years of frustration by players over a single NPC. After converting "Coyle stays alive" to an optional objective, increase mission difficulty in those same missions in other ways. Here's one possible example, with some supporting narrative:

    "Shortly after the legendary Coyle is defeated, mobs that had until then been cowering in the shadows, because of the dread they felt about facing "Coyle the Mighty", feel emboldened enough to attack the party, for the next few waves."

    Translated: -- The penalty for having Coyle die would be that more mobs attack the party for the next several waves. Then players get a choice about how to finish the Coyle missions -- they can let the mobs have him and face the music, or they can try to keep him alive, to keep spawn sizes down.

    There are plenty of other ways to ramp up difficulty for those missions, instead of sticking with the initial premise that the most internet-meme-worthy NPC in DDO must be saved, no matter what.

  2. #2
    Community Member Therrias's Avatar
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    Didn't you ever watch War Games?

    The only way to win at Coyle is to not play.

  3. #3
    Community Member Bacab's Avatar
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    How about casting raise dead at the end...you win at Coyle?
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  4. #4
    Hero Cardoor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnjoyTheJourney View Post
    Pulling a "Coyle" suggestion out of the obscurity of another thread ...

    Make keeping Coyle alive an optional quest objective for both missions in which he is present and be done with years and years of frustration by players over a single NPC. After converting "Coyle stays alive" to an optional objective, increase mission difficulty in those same missions in other ways. Here's one possible example, with some supporting narrative:

    "Shortly after the legendary Coyle is defeated, mobs that had until then been cowering in the shadows, because of the dread they felt about facing "Coyle the Mighty", feel emboldened enough to attack the party, for the next few waves."

    Translated: -- The penalty for having Coyle die would be that more mobs attack the party for the next several waves. Then players get a choice about how to finish the Coyle missions -- they can let the mobs have him and face the music, or they can try to keep him alive, to keep spawn sizes down.

    There are plenty of other ways to ramp up difficulty for those missions, instead of sticking with the initial premise that the most internet-meme-worthy NPC in DDO must be saved, no matter what.
    I don't think you could kill Coyle off, since he plays a part in the rest of the storyline. It's an excellent quest to teach crowd control until Coyle gets one shotted (thats where it fails for me - especially when it is 10 minutes into the timer).

  5. #5
    Community Member EnjoyTheJourney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardoor View Post
    I don't think you could kill Coyle off, since he plays a part in the rest of the storyline. It's an excellent quest to teach crowd control until Coyle gets one shotted (thats where it fails for me - especially when it is 10 minutes into the timer).
    Two words:

    Raise Dead

    ... unless Coyle could manage to find a way to fail at that, as well, and that would be tough considering he'd be dead and in no position to argue.

  6. #6
    Community Member EnjoyTheJourney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacab View Post
    How about casting raise dead at the end...you win at Coyle?
    That would make divines a very popular choice for Coyle missions.

    But, it would be reasonable to believe that once a path had been cleared by the player's character, an NPC group with a divine in it would be able to make it's way down and bring Coyle back to life. That removes the need to have raise dead in the party.

  7. #7
    Community Member Phidius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnjoyTheJourney View Post
    ...
    "Shortly after the legendary Coyle is defeated, mobs that had until then been cowering in the shadows, because of the dread they felt about facing "Coyle the Mighty", feel emboldened enough to attack the party, for the next few waves."

    ...
    I don't think this would ever fly - Coyle has been the epitome of one-shot-wonder for so long, we'd never be able to take it seriously.

    If you increase his CR level to the point where it might be believable that a drunken Gnashtooth kobold would be afraid of him, you wouldn't need this mechanic.

    Quote Originally Posted by EnjoyTheJourney View Post
    Two words:

    Raise Dead

    ...
    Two words: Hit Points.

    As much as I hate protection quests, the ones where the NPC has a significant number of hit points and ample healing amp are at least bearable.
    "I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities" - Vaarsuvius, OoTS #674

  8. #8
    Community Member EnjoyTheJourney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phidius View Post
    I don't think this would ever fly - Coyle has been the epitome of one-shot-wonder for so long, we'd never be able to take it seriously.

    If you increase his CR level to the point where it might be believable that a drunken Gnashtooth kobold would be afraid of him, you wouldn't need this mechanic.
    There are plenty of other options for increasing mission difficulty, to still keep challenge in the mission, while switching "Keep Coyle Alive" to an optional objective, which was the larger point.

    Some also might like the irony of Coyle striking fear into the hearts of enemies; you could substitute "Mobs that were formerly doubled over with laughter at the thought that Coyle could stand against them stream into battle after his defeat." Depends on your taste in humor, I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phidius View Post
    Two words: Hit Points.

    As much as I hate protection quests, the ones where the NPC has a significant number of hit points and ample healing amp are at least bearable.
    I notice that you use the word "hate" to describe protection quests. What exactly is the role of a specific mechanic or objective in a game, then, if a word like "hate" applies when describing it?

    Challenge is great. Variety in challenge is also great. But, there is a distinction between "fun" challenges and "annoying" challenges; protection quests frequently sit on the fence between those two, and sometimes cross into the "annoying" category. When protection quests serve as "gates" that prevent progress in an AP or quest chain, then the annoyance factor is likely to increase.

    Edit: You suggest a substitute for "Raise Dead", but the existence of a possible substitute still doesn't address the arbitrariness of "Guard or Fail" missions in a game where Raise Dead is a widely available spell.
    Last edited by EnjoyTheJourney; 04-21-2012 at 12:33 PM.

  9. #9
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phidius View Post
    I don't think this would ever fly - Coyle has been the epitome of one-shot-wonder for so long, we'd never be able to take it seriously.
    This. I know the Pain of the OP and your frustration, but, like it or not, that is a signature aspect of the quest, so much so they have a rune arm called Recoyle.

  10. #10
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    i have a better idea.

    new spell: otiluke's resilient sphere. shove coyle inside, knock him out, and start killing trash.

  11. #11
    Community Member EnjoyTheJourney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    i have a better idea.

    new spell: otiluke's resilient sphere. shove coyle inside, knock him out, and start killing trash.
    The three concerns I have with a suggestion like this are as follows:

    1. It would trivialize the intended challenge level of the mission for those who can use it
    2. It would be a trick available only to the select few who know about it
    3. Soloists without access to that spell will be in the same position as before

    I'm not fond of building in the potential for tricks that few will know about and that trivialize a mission. Player skill as an influence on the result gets trivialized in its importance, and gets replaced by "Do you know the trick?" That also leaves anybody who is a casual player in the same position as before, as they're very, very unlikely to stumble on the "super secret decoder ring trick" that many vets would know about.

    That's why the "Knock Coyle out" change wasn't a good change, in my view, and being able to use clouds or other tricks doesn't say good things about the design of the Coyle missions. The fact that you will fail the first Coyle mission if you don't bring him along with you is another not-so-good design decision (I had that happen, didn't bring him along when given a choice at the beginning of the mission, and then mid-mission he suddenly and without warning died, mission failure).

    Putting in a "second pathway" to completion for Coyle missions would help all players, not just those who read the forums or the wiki, or who happen to be lucky enough to team up with somebody who knows "The Trick." Keeping the challenge level of the mission relatively high is also a good thing, in my view, and that means keeping tricks that trivialize difficulty out of the mix.
    Last edited by EnjoyTheJourney; 04-22-2012 at 09:39 AM.

  12. #12
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    there is nothing challenging about that fight, other than the fact that coyle is a total wimp who would probably explode in a shower of blood and gore if he ever got caught in the crossfire of a nerf gun fight. or if he even got near one.

    the mobs themselves come slowly, in small waves, and are not much of a threat to a decent group.

    i'd much rather see the mobs show up fast and furious, like in the desert caravan quest, and have coyle be stuffed in a bubble and left to rot. heck, i'd rather see coyle cast the spell, and if you don't clear the trash quickly enough, they may be able to dispel it somehow. almost anything would be better than how it is currently, quite frankly.

  13. #13
    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    just be glad you can heal him now in the old days you couldnt heal or buff and he was a bigger idiot than he is now

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  14. #14
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    I would kill him myself, for the satisfaction AND because I like music and don't mind facing it.
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  15. #15
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    What they need to do is make protecting coyle the objective of the "rushmor party's revenge" challenge where that entire party assaults one room with coyle in the center and the players have to keep coyle alive. This challenge would be sponsored by the kobold union, as a way to teach nonkobolds how to hate properly. As a one time reward for completing it to 6 stars players automatically receive the battlecry: "Player remembers coyle!"
    Matt Walsh:
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