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  1. #21
    Community Member ShadowFlash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raoull View Post
    I disagree with most of this. My clonk ran with DM for quite a while before I eventually LR'ed to put those points into STR. While in theory its a better value, the problem is keeping it up. The casting is slow, the duration is short... but most importantly, it competes with Radiant Servant abilities for your turns. If you put 6 points into CHA to get DM, you get 3 more turns.... but you'll want to use DM more than 3 times between shrines. What really hurts is that with the 1 turn per 2 minutes regen of RS, using auras and a few bursts even just a few starting turns (and tanked cha can easily get 8) last a good long time. But once you start tossing around DM you'll burn through them in no time flat. You add significantly to your usage, but not to your regen rate.

    And do not underestimate the tohit issue. As a str based, wrap wielding clonk (so 30 str, and no minuses for TWF), even I'd occasionally turn it off in epics, and I have a +4 tohit cannith crafted trinket. Without being full on str based, and using wraps, expect PA to be off much more often. I notice the only problematic mob listed is the WF Paladins, which to me implies epics aren't being taken into account.

    I will say... one example mentioned above seems reasonable. If you're really a caster, and have CHA more for turns, then spending a few AP in DM just for beating on stunned trash mobs seems a good idea. Don't put points in CHA just to get DM, but if you've got them for other reasons the AP for the first 2 lvls isn't bad.
    Dosen't seem like you disagree with much to me

    DMII duration = same as Kensai Power Surge (and provides the same +4 damage)
    DMII casting time...mentioned this as obnoxious...hence recommending ONLY DMII or higher to make it worthwhile.

    Epics were NOT taken into account as I do not have the gear for it yet...you can see what gear I listed that I currently don't wear. With the missing gear my to-hit will increase at least +8-10 from where I'm at now, so I don't see it as relevant. This is also with 23 standing STR ATM...the build I posted will have less to-hit concerns than mine..hence my regret in building towards DMIII with power attack.

    Yes, DMII is cheap enough AP-wise...that's why I like it as the breaking point.

    I have 12 turns ATM (level 20 without ToD) and think it's a safe amount to keep my aura up and use DM liberally...If you're running low, it's not like you HAVE to use it on EVERY mob. I didn't even need to take tiers of extra turning...which can help if # of turns seems low for the playstyle.

    Aura, Burst, and DM management...
    I admit that the first thing I sacrifice when turns are low and SP is high is bursting...I'm addicted to the aura which provides far more healing. My bursts are reserved for emergency burst healing only....coincedently usually the same fights I'm on "healer" duty and not using DM anyway.

    I honestly don't see what feat to sacrifice for Power Attack here. I like all 4 metas for Divine Punishment, Blade Barriers, and Bursts. What did you trade for it? The suggested stats I posted will end up with at least 30 STR standing...easily more with temporary buffs and better gear than the standard +6 stat.

    You'll also notice, I didn't "dump" STR in the stats I posted...in fact STR remains the same as all the other builds posted so far AND allows DMII...my math example was theory explaining the potential value vs STR.

    Edit: Bah! forgot the human bonus feat!....that's where power attack goes! I'm use to a dorf

    Echos of power
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=342368
    According to this thread...you do NOT need to take your cleric level 1st to get it
    Last edited by ShadowFlash; 04-23-2012 at 04:37 PM.
    All the math your brain can handle concerning Divine Punishment
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=344769

  2. #22
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    I had been getting conflicting information about the Echos from a lot of people. I decided that I would test it out. I made four characters both level 7 with the new vet.II status. First character I went c/m/c/c/c/c/c. Drained out my SP after I had entered the Water Works and Echoes kicked in. I then made a character that went m/c/c/c/c/c/c Ran back into Water works drained my SP pool and Echoes did not kick in. I also performed the test with c/f/c/c/c/c/c and Echoes kicked in and then with f/c/c/c/c/c/c and it did not trigger. I changed the class just in case it was a fluke that Monk was the reason that it would not trigger.

    I would be very happy to be proven wrong but from what I have been able to test Cleric must be taken at level 1. I do want to take 3 Monk specific feats so tanking Monk at level one would be great so I could start with the wraps and gear from the starter quest but I'm not willing to give up the Echoes.

    How do you take a screen shot? When I get home I will post my findings with the 4 different characters.

  3. #23
    Community Member Cyiwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kclark1980 View Post
    I had been getting conflicting information about the Echos from a lot of people. I decided that I would test it out. I made four characters both level 7 with the new vet.II status. First character I went c/m/c/c/c/c/c. Drained out my SP after I had entered the Water Works and Echoes kicked in. I then made a character that went m/c/c/c/c/c/c Ran back into Water works drained my SP pool and Echoes did not kick in. I also performed the test with c/f/c/c/c/c/c and Echoes kicked in and then with f/c/c/c/c/c/c and it did not trigger. I changed the class just in case it was a fluke that Monk was the reason that it would not trigger.

    I would be very happy to be proven wrong but from what I have been able to test Cleric must be taken at level 1. I do want to take 3 Monk specific feats so tanking Monk at level one would be great so I could start with the wraps and gear from the starter quest but I'm not willing to give up the Echoes.

    How do you take a screen shot? When I get home I will post my findings with the 4 different characters.
    Thanks for doing the legwork here, I'm surprized it works this way. I wonder if it is WAI...

  4. #24
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    Here is what I have based my search off of before I started looking at the build. I know it is wiki and you cant trust it 100% that is why I did the testing.

    http://ddowiki.com/page/Echoes_of_Power

    It appears that it has to be at the first level to be "true magical training" I guess that training later in life is not true??? I don't get it but it's a pain in the rear. It would make things easier if you could take the @2 instead of @1.

  5. #25
    Community Member Phidius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kclark1980 View Post
    I had been getting conflicting information about the Echos from a lot of people. I decided that I would test it out. I made four characters both level 7 with the new vet.II status. First character I went c/m/c/c/c/c/c. Drained out my SP after I had entered the Water Works and Echoes kicked in. I then made a character that went m/c/c/c/c/c/c Ran back into Water works drained my SP pool and Echoes did not kick in. I also performed the test with c/f/c/c/c/c/c and Echoes kicked in and then with f/c/c/c/c/c/c and it did not trigger. I changed the class just in case it was a fluke that Monk was the reason that it would not trigger.

    I would be very happy to be proven wrong but from what I have been able to test Cleric must be taken at level 1. I do want to take 3 Monk specific feats so tanking Monk at level one would be great so I could start with the wraps and gear from the starter quest but I'm not willing to give up the Echoes.

    How do you take a screen shot? When I get home I will post my findings with the 4 different characters.
    The part you're missing is logging out and logging back in before you go to Water Works and drain your SP pool.

    I use "Ctrl + P" to take a screenshot, and it puts it in a folder called "DDO Screenshots" in "My Documents".
    "I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities" - Vaarsuvius, OoTS #674

  6. #26
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowFlash View Post
    Dosen't seem like you disagree with much to me

    DMII duration = same as Kensai Power Surge (and provides the same +4 damage)
    DMII casting time...mentioned this as obnoxious...hence recommending ONLY DMII or higher to make it worthwhile.

    Epics were NOT taken into account as I do not have the gear for it yet...you can see what gear I listed that I currently don't wear. With the missing gear my to-hit will increase at least +8-10 from where I'm at now, so I don't see it as relevant. This is also with 23 standing STR ATM...the build I posted will have less to-hit concerns than mine..hence my regret in building towards DMIII with power attack.

    Yes, DMII is cheap enough AP-wise...that's why I like it as the breaking point.

    I have 12 turns ATM (level 20 without ToD) and think it's a safe amount to keep my aura up and use DM liberally...If you're running low, it's not like you HAVE to use it on EVERY mob. I didn't even need to take tiers of extra turning...which can help if # of turns seems low for the playstyle.

    Aura, Burst, and DM management...
    I admit that the first thing I sacrifice when turns are low and SP is high is bursting...I'm addicted to the aura which provides far more healing. My bursts are reserved for emergency burst healing only....coincedently usually the same fights I'm on "healer" duty and not using DM anyway.

    I honestly don't see what feat to sacrifice for Power Attack here. I like all 4 metas for Divine Punishment, Blade Barriers, and Bursts. What did you trade for it? The suggested stats I posted will end up with at least 30 STR standing...easily more with temporary buffs and better gear than the standard +6 stat.

    You'll also notice, I didn't "dump" STR in the stats I posted...in fact STR remains the same as all the other builds posted so far AND allows DMII...my math example was theory explaining the potential value vs STR.

    Edit: Bah! forgot the human bonus feat!....that's where power attack goes! I'm use to a dorf

    Echos of power
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=342368
    According to this thread...you do NOT need to take your cleric level 1st to get it
    DM is incredibly bad, especially on a cleric that can use turns for healing (as opposed to paladin who has little else to do with turns). You get more damage output using your turns for healing so that you can use your SP for divine punishment.

    It is that bad. I'm saying that not only do you need to spend stat points and action points just to have access to it, is it often worse to even use DM (especially DM II) due to limited amount of turns, and limited amount of casting time.

    Point for point, STR is much better option. Not only are you increasing damage without need for action points, casting time, and wasting resources, you're increasing your AB, which on a cleric is very much needed.

    This isn't a subjective biased opinion. DM is objectively bad on a cleric.

  7. #27
    Community Member Phidius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    ...
    This isn't a subjective biased opinion. DM is objectively bad on a cleric.
    It all depends on the build. For example, it's good on my Helf 15C/3M/2F that dumped Wisdom and put those points into Str (started with 16 + levelups). With the faster per-hit of unarmed gTWF attacking, the +6 from DM3 is worth the investment of 8 build points to bring Charisma to 15 + 3 tome.

    With the use of DM1 and Cleric Charisma2 for Radiant Servant, that puts him at 20 Charisma to get max bonus from the Paladin Dilly feat without spending an item slot (or epic tokens) on Charisma. Not to mention the added benefit when UMDing arcane scrolls.

    However, this is a very specific build that was carefully planned to get maximum benefit from the investment for DM3... I agree with you that DM is a trap for most clerics.

    Hopefully, if they ever get around to improving DM for paladins they don't forget that some clerics use it too.
    "I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities" - Vaarsuvius, OoTS #674

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phidius View Post
    The part you're missing is logging out and logging back in before you go to Water Works and drain your SP pool.

    I use "Ctrl + P" to take a screenshot, and it puts it in a folder called "DDO Screenshots" in "My Documents".
    Ok, I will give that a run when I get home tonight and see what I come up with. I will be very very happy if this works. I had always just jumped off the boat and headed directly for Water Works.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phidius View Post
    The part you're missing is logging out and logging back in before you go to Water Works and drain your SP pool.

    I use "Ctrl + P" to take a screenshot, and it puts it in a folder called "DDO Screenshots" in "My Documents".
    You are 100% correct this is correct! I made a m/c/c/c/c/c/c and ran over to the Water Works. I then quit game and logged back in. I went into the Water Works and draind out my SP and got down to 1sp and echos of power kicked in. This is an interesting development.

    The question not requires further testing if you start a level 1 character and do not use the veteran status will you still gain the echoes of power when you take level 2 as a cleric? I shall try this tomorrow when I am not falling over 1/2 asleep. Thank you for the information I will get back to you all later.

  10. #30
    Community Member LightBear's Avatar
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    My next life is up and I plan to do the Cleric / Monk combo and this is what I came up with (partly based on this thread).

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Half CLONK LF
    Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Male
    (2 Monk \ 18 Cleric) 
    Hit Points: 282
    Spell Points: 1329 
    BAB: 14\14\19\24
    Fortitude: 18
    Reflex: 18
    Will: 22
    
                      Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
    (36 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
    Strength             10                 13                   13
    Dexterity            18                 21                   22
    Constitution         14                 17                   17
    Intelligence         10                 13                   13
    Wisdom               16                 22                   24
    Charisma             12                 16                   16
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
    +1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
    +2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
    +3 Tome of Strength used at level 12
    +3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 12
    +3 Tome of Constitution used at level 12
    +3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 12
    +3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 12
    +4 Tome of Charisma used at level 12
    
                      Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
    Balance               8                 11                   11
    Bluff                 1                  3                    5
    Concentration         6                 25                   29
    Diplomacy             1                  3                    3
    Disable Device        n/a               n/a                   n/a
    Haggle                1                  3                    3
    Heal                  3                 29                   31
    Hide                  4                  6                   10
    Intimidate            1                  3                    3
    Jump                  4                  6                    8
    Listen                3                  7                   10
    Move Silently         4                  6                    8
    Open Lock             n/a               n/a                   n/a
    Perform               n/a               n/a                   n/a
    Repair                0                  1                    1
    Search                0                  1                    1
    Spot                  3                  7                    7
    Swim                  0                  1                    1
    Tumble                n/a                7                    7
    Use Magic Device      n/a               n/a                   n/a
    
    Level 1 (Monk)
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Sorcerer
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Wizard
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist
    Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
    Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Reflex) I
    Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
    
    
    Level 2 (Monk)
    Feat: (Monk Bonus) Weapon Finesse
    
    
    Level 3 (Cleric)
    Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
    Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
    Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
    Enhancement: Way of the Faithful Hound I
    Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
    Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
    Enhancement: Improved Heal I
    Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
    Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
    
    
    Level 4 (Cleric)
    Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
    
    
    Level 5 (Cleric)
    Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Reflex) II
    Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
    
    
    Level 6 (Cleric)
    Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
    Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
    Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
    Enhancement: Improved Heal II
    Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
    
    
    Level 7 (Cleric)
    Enhancement: Halfling Guile II
    Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
    Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration I
    
    
    Level 8 (Cleric)
    Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
    
    
    Level 9 (Cleric)
    Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
    Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
    Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
    
    
    Level 10 (Cleric)
    Enhancement: Halfling Cunning III
    Enhancement: Improved Concentration III
    
    
    Level 11 (Cleric)
    Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II
    Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I
    
    
    Level 12 (Cleric)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
    Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might I
    
    
    Level 13 (Cleric)
    Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
    
    
    Level 14 (Cleric)
    Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
    Enhancement: Improved Concentration IV
    Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might II
    
    
    Level 15 (Cleric)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    
    
    Level 16 (Cleric)
    Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life III
    
    
    Level 17 (Cleric)
    Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life III
    Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
    
    
    Level 18 (Cleric)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration II
    
    
    Level 19 (Cleric)
    Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV
    
    
    Level 20 (Cleric)
    Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II
    My main concern is that I don't know what the impact of the two monk levels on the past life is. (Eg will it stand in the way of the completionist feat or not?)

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