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  1. #1
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    Default Build request

    I am looking to take my first shot at an end game rogue, I would appreciate any help on possible builds with end game in mind. Im looking to be able to handle all the traps on an assassin build, any help as to end game gear would be nice, This will be a 36 point build and I do have most of the epics ingredients i think ill need but as I said this will be my first shot at the assassin build. Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    2 end game rogue builds that I currently like. My other than average unarmed 18 rogue/2 monk, half-elf fighter dilettante build with vorpal fists, 49 stunning fist DC (50 when I get lotd) and about 650 HP in tank mode at the moment.

    Alternatively, I'd look at a pure half-elf, artificer dilettante, level ups in int assassinate build with an epic midnight greetings (or two). Obviously still need a solid strength (16 strength, 14 dex (+3 tome), 16 con, 16 int is my idea - take a point off con if you don't have the +3 dex tome) and raid DPS suffers a little bit (but not significantly when you get down to it) but the upside is that you can instant kill just about anything that can be instant killed; particularly those pesky drow with their 45+ SR.
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    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Speaking from personal experience with my Str-based, pure Halfling Assassin who did not dump int:

    I have little problems assassinating the dangerous drow (the casters, that is) with only a 40 DC assassinate. So going Str-based is still quite viable, imho.

    At endgame, one of the major problems is to-hit. Unless you have a pair of EMGs, an Int-based assassin will suffer that issue more than a Str-based one.

    If I were to TR Meinir again into a rogue, I'd probably do the following:

    Going Human allows me to pick up the Rogue PL (I am assuming that you have a similarly useful active PL available) and Khopesh at the same time.

    Basically, against bosses, she'd use Khopeshes, and against epic trash a Rad2 Kukri and EMG.
    Skills are deliberately left out - just max out every skill which was raised at level 1, and add balance once the int tome kicks in.

    Int breakdown, assuming litany or +1 exceptional int:
    14 base
    2 capstone
    3 tome
    6 item
    1 profane/exceptional
    2 exceptional
    2 ship
    ---
    30 = +10 mod

    assassinate dc:
    10 base
    20 rogue
    10 int
    2 emg
    ---
    42

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.01
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 True Neutral Human Female
    (20 Rogue) 
    Hit Points: 202
    Spell Points: 0 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 8
    Reflex: 15
    Will: 5
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             18                    23
    Dexterity            15                    17
    Constitution         14                    14
    Intelligence         14                    14
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma              8                     8
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 6
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               5                     9
    Bluff                 3                     6
    Concentration         2                     5
    Diplomacy             3                     6
    Disable Device        6                     9
    Haggle               -1                     2
    Heal                 -1                     2
    Hide                  6                    10
    Intimidate           -1                     2
    Jump                  8                    13
    Listen               -1                     2
    Move Silently         6                    10
    Open Lock             6                    10
    Perform              n/a                    n/a
    Repair                2                     5
    Search                6                     9
    Spot                  3                     6
    Swim                  4                     9
    Tumble                3                     7
    Use Magic Device      3                     6
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Skill: Balance (+3)
    Skill: Bluff (+4)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
    Skill: Disable Device (+4)
    Skill: Hide (+4)
    Skill: Jump (+4)
    Skill: Move Silently (+4)
    Skill: Open Lock (+4)
    Skill: Search (+4)
    Skill: Spot (+4)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 2 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 3 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 4 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 5 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 6 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
    
    
    Level 7 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 8 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 9 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 10 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
    
    
    Level 11 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 12 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 13 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
    
    
    Level 14 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 15 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 16 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
    
    
    Level 17 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 18 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Sneak of Shadows
    
    
    Level 19 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
    
    
    Level 20 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Take this build with a grain of salt, though.
    14 dex +3 tome is horrible for leveling, but if you LR at cap, you can pick the TWF feats at 9, 12 and 15, for example with no negative impact.
    18 str might be 1 point of str too much, depending on your actual gear.
    1 more point in either of Con or Int can help you to get to the next bracket, again, depending on gear.
    More Cha doesn't hurt, especially if it helps you to get to 39 UMD more easily.

    Edit: Please note that this is a revised version from what wowo quoted below. In particular, taking LG and not TN in my OP was a hindsight.
    Last edited by karl_k0ch; 04-15-2012 at 05:47 AM.
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  4. #4
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    Speaking from personal experience with my Str-based, pure Halfling Assassin who did not dump int:

    I have little problems assassinating the dangerous drow (the casters, that is) with only a 40 DC assassinate. So going Str-based is still quite viable, imho.

    At endgame, one of the major problems is to-hit. Unless you have a pair of EMGs, an Int-based assassin will suffer that issue more than a Str-based one.

    If I were to TR Meinir again into a rogue, I'd probably do the following:

    Going Human allows me to pick up the Rogue PL (I am assuming that you have a similarly useful active PL available) and Khopesh at the same time.

    Basically, against bosses, she'd use Khopeshes, and against epic trash a Rad2 Kukri and EMG.
    Skills are deliberately left out - just max out every skill which was raised at level 1, and add balance once the int tome kicks in.

    Int breakdown, assuming litany or +1 exceptional int:
    14 base
    2 capstone
    3 tome
    6 item
    1 profane/exceptional
    2 exceptional
    2 ship
    ---
    30 = +10 mod

    assassinate dc:
    10 base
    20 rogue
    10 int
    2 emg
    ---
    42

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.01
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female
    (20 Rogue) 
    Hit Points: 202
    Spell Points: 0 
    BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
    Fortitude: 8
    Reflex: 15
    Will: 5
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             18                    23
    Dexterity            15                    17
    Constitution         14                    14
    Intelligence         14                    14
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma              8                     8
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 6
    +2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               5                     9
    Bluff                 3                     6
    Concentration         2                     5
    Diplomacy             3                     6
    Disable Device        6                     9
    Haggle               -1                     2
    Heal                 -1                     2
    Hide                  6                    10
    Intimidate           -1                     2
    Jump                  8                    13
    Listen               -1                     2
    Move Silently         6                    10
    Open Lock             6                    10
    Perform              n/a                    n/a
    Repair                2                     5
    Search                6                     9
    Spot                  3                     6
    Swim                  4                     9
    Tumble                3                     7
    Use Magic Device      3                     6
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Skill: Balance (+3)
    Skill: Bluff (+4)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
    Skill: Disable Device (+4)
    Skill: Hide (+4)
    Skill: Jump (+4)
    Skill: Move Silently (+4)
    Skill: Open Lock (+4)
    Skill: Search (+4)
    Skill: Spot (+4)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
    Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 2 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 3 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 4 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 5 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 6 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
    
    
    Level 7 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 8 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    
    
    Level 9 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 10 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
    
    
    Level 11 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 12 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 13 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
    
    
    Level 14 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 15 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 16 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
    
    
    Level 17 (Rogue)
    
    
    Level 18 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Sneak of Shadows
    
    
    Level 19 (Rogue)
    Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
    
    
    Level 20 (Rogue)
    Ability Raise: STR
    I agree that it's viable; I just think that either a build like the one that I linked or a high int build brings more to the table with little sacrificed overall.

    Divines are also prime assassinate targets and you need a higher DC for them.

    I really do love my rogue, just ran eADQ2 for the first time on him and had 606 HP for rage phase (no yugo pot) and I was landing my improved sunders fine, really good feeling after that.
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  5. #5
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    I agree that it's viable; I just think that either a build like the one that I linked or a high int build brings more to the table with little sacrificed overall.
    To me, it looks like that these two kind of build's main strengths are additional DPS and CC on trash mobs. Your 18/2 split's HP is also very attractive, of course.
    My design motivation was to have very good dps against bosses, and still be viable against epic trash mobs. To me, it's a matter of shifting priorities, and this is one of the nice things with rogue builds - even if we have almost all of the feats fixed, there is still such a broad spectrum amongst the DPS assassins. (Cue Rorgann in 3, 2, 1, ...)
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    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    To me, it looks like that these two kind of build's main strengths are additional DPS and CC on trash mobs. Your 18/2 split's HP is also very attractive, of course.
    My design motivation was to have very good dps against bosses, and still be viable against epic trash mobs. To me, it's a matter of shifting priorities, and this is one of the nice things with rogue builds - even if we have almost all of the feats fixed, there is still such a broad spectrum amongst the DPS assassins. (Cue Rorgann in 3, 2, 1, ...)
    I guess my theory is that even without level ups a 16 base strength rogue with decent gear is already going to have very competitive boss DPS; +3 damage from level ups is an exceptionally marginal increase in overall DPS while +3 assassinate DC is suitably huge. On the other hand, +3 AB matters when it matters but this shouldn't be as much of an issue for a 36 point build with appropriate gear.
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    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Honestly, I'm happy that (in my opinion) assassin is one of the non caster pres that works reasonably well for its target at least. Multiple options, all effective within a range of each other.

    I'm still going monk splash or INT based next life though ...STR and finesse are off my list of options.
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    Community Member destiny4405's Avatar
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    from my experience sneak attackable mobs (which include mobs that can be assassinated and stunned), already die pretty fast. for my rogue i decided to fortify it's weaknesses, not it's strenghts and it works really good.

    like karl_koch said, it's all about priorities. mine was DPS.
    Last edited by destiny4405; 04-15-2012 at 09:42 AM.
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    Thank you all for the info, alot to think about. If monk is splashed in, when is the best time top do it? Is the capstone the only thing really lost with the splash option?

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    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by avenger7 View Post
    Thank you all for the info, alot to think about. If monk is splashed in, when is the best time top do it? Is the capstone the only thing really lost with the splash option?
    If monk splash, then do it early on, as your weapons will be handwraps. Level 2 is a good starting point.

    By losing the capstone, you lose +2 Int, i.e. +1 assassinate.
    Additionally, you lose +1 assassinate dc per rogue level not taken, i.e. a 19/1 will fall 2 behind a pure assassin, and a 18/2 will fall 3 behind a pure assassin.

    Also, iirc, you can't assassinate with handwraps. (I might be remembering this incorrectly.) On the bright side, EMG do count as Ki weapons, so it's not completely unreasonable to use those situationally on a monk splash.

    I'd like to add that while not being my favorite, the monk splash also improves a rogue's weaknesses, in particular DPS against highly-fortified targets as well as the lack of feats.
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    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    If monk splash, then do it early on, as your weapons will be handwraps. Level 2 is a good starting point.

    By losing the capstone, you lose +2 Int, i.e. +1 assassinate.
    Additionally, you lose +1 assassinate dc per rogue level not taken, i.e. a 19/1 will fall 2 behind a pure assassin, and a 18/2 will fall 3 behind a pure assassin.

    Also, iirc, you can't assassinate with handwraps. (I might be remembering this incorrectly.) On the bright side, EMG do count as Ki weapons, so it's not completely unreasonable to use those situationally on a monk splash.

    I'd like to add that while not being my favorite, the monk splash also improves a rogue's weaknesses, in particular DPS against highly-fortified targets as well as the lack of feats.
    I took monk levels at 2 and 8 on my build iirc to max out concentration. The extra feats were very important - stunning blow and improved sunder - handwraps are the only weapon that I use and yes, you can assassinate with them (not that I assassinate very often).

    Monk splash helps a number of rogue weaknesses:
    1. DPS is higher vs 30%+ fortification enemies which include most raid bosses (against 100% there is no contest)
    2. +7 HP permanently, +20 HP when needed.
    3. Crowd control, 49 stunning fist, 45-49 stunning blow means I've soloed most of Epic Lords of Dust.
    4. Debuffing, 45-49 improved sunder DC lets me reduce fort saves (-3*5), AC (-3) and fortification (-10%) of raid bosses like epic lords of blades and epic lailat.

    I'm still working on an Epic Midnight Greetings, it's not a bad idea but pretty situational for this build.
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    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    I took monk levels at 2 and 8 on my build iirc to max out concentration. The extra feats were very important - stunning blow and improved sunder - handwraps are the only weapon that I use and yes, you can assassinate with them (not that I assassinate very often).

    Monk splash helps a number of rogue weaknesses:
    1. DPS is higher vs 30%+ fortification enemies which include most raid bosses (against 100% there is no contest)
    2. +7 HP permanently, +20 HP when needed.
    3. Crowd control, 49 stunning fist, 45-49 stunning blow means I've soloed most of Epic Lords of Dust.
    4. Debuffing, 45-49 improved sunder DC lets me reduce fort saves (-3*5), AC (-3) and fortification (-10%) of raid bosses like epic lords of blades and epic lailat.

    I'm still working on an Epic Midnight Greetings, it's not a bad idea but pretty situational for this build.
    1. Improved Sunder + Opportunist + Destruction + Improved Destruction = 10 + 10 + 4 + 8 = 32% fort reduction, i.e. you can make the Pit fiends not fall into the 30%+ category on your own, even without improved sunder.
    2. Monk is 8 hp per level, Rogue is 6. 2 monk levels + tortoise = 9 HP.
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    Community Member destiny4405's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    1. DPS is higher vs 30%+ fortification enemies which include most raid bosses (against 100% there is no contest)
    it's not as black and white as you might think. While handwraps are better against more fortified enemies, enhancements and equipment still play a big role. I remeber that my rogue, while it still was pure, was beating portal in 50ish seconds, which was better then your time iirc.
    Last edited by destiny4405; 04-15-2012 at 07:10 PM.
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  14. #14
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    1. Improved Sunder + Opportunist + Destruction + Improved Destruction = 10 + 10 + 4 + 8 = 32% fort reduction, i.e. you can make the Pit fiends not fall into the 30%+ category on your own, even without improved sunder.
    2. Monk is 8 hp per level, Rogue is 6. 2 monk levels + tortoise = 9 HP.
    Oh yeah, for some reason I was working off 1 monk level.

    Destruction/improved destruction is good but it means giving up LitII's or whatever item. If you have epic kronzeks cruelty and destruction on your DT then I can see it being good mind you.

    Access to such a combo is a reason in itself to go for a high int build, you've taken care of your AB issues right there.
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    Community Member Rogann's Avatar
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    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=352591

    ^Max dps focused endgame rogue build.

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    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off View Post
    Access to such a combo is a reason in itself to go for a high int build, you've taken care of your AB issues right there.
    But then, you'd need to use an Improved Destruction weapon in the off-hand, which is less dps and to-hit than an EMG, or a cannith crafted Boss Beater.

    Also, thanks Rorgann for showing up, now we seem to have a decent amount of the assassin spectrum covered. We don't make it too easy, OP, do we? :P
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    Community Member Rogann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    But then, you'd need to use an Improved Destruction weapon in the off-hand, which is less dps and to-hit than an EMG, or a cannith crafted Boss Beater.

    Also, thanks Rorgann for showing up, now we seem to have a decent amount of the assassin spectrum covered. We don't make it too easy, OP, do we? :P
    Bah we all know assassin's are teh best!(not the dex/int ones though!) Focusing on trash mobs is sooo silly.

    And isnt epic kronzek the best dps off-hand weapon(improved destruction) O_o

  18. #18
    Community Member wax_on_wax_off's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    But then, you'd need to use an Improved Destruction weapon in the off-hand, which is less dps and to-hit than an EMG, or a cannith crafted Boss Beater.

    Also, thanks Rorgann for showing up, now we seem to have a decent amount of the assassin spectrum covered. We don't make it too easy, OP, do we? :P
    Yup, got Improved Destruction covered on the Epic Kron'zeks Cruelty.

    To avoid repeating myself I've laid out a build plan here. Bit rough perhaps but happy to discuss its pros and cons.
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    Thank you all for the input, I decided to go with 3 lives for the rouge build as this toon had 3 past lives of fighter, I know thats a little bit of an odd choice for past lives, but I figured the +3 to hit and the extra mod to the trip skill would be fun for his first life. I went human str based and it is alot of fun so far, so thanks again, and I look foward to possible solid advice from all of you again.

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