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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. My opinion differs and will not change on this issue. This three tree limit both stinks of wow and loses the flavor of DnD that I enjoy. I dont expect anyone to agree with me, or even care, but this part of the enhancement change is going to be my farewell to DDO.
    A 3 tree system has nothing to do with WoW. Trees are just an easier way of looking at enhancements using a graphical interface over clunky lists. We have 3 trees because we had 3 PrE's planned out for each class for a long time and the changes were revolving around that.

    I'm interested in what prompted the push back in the feed back and what the where the current design ideas are heading so we can provide more feedback.

    If you are worried about losing the flavor of DnD then removing all of the enhancements would make sense since that is not how DnD applies action points whatsoever.

    EDIT: I'm also disappointed by the push back. I was looking forward to completed PrE's and multiple capstone choices.

  2. #42
    The Hatchery bigolbear's Avatar
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    First of let me say Thankyou for informing us, and for what its worth Its nice to see you making the right decision for the right reasons.

    As a software developer my self Id like to say kudos to whichever balsy dev told the high an mighty leadership that this wasnt ready, and due to the complexity would take a lot of testing which there wasnt time for. Whom ever you are sir/madam I salute you! now go have a coffee and get back to the grind

    As others have said, keep talking to us madfloyd. Show us what you have so far and we can and will give beter directed feedback, personly im glad this will be takign its time to get in game. Id much rather have a bug free polished enhancement system.

    Ill take this point here to sum up my various posts in the Lets talk enhancemnets thread for ease of access. (for reference, for the devs - not for another 200 page rantathon)


    -The 3 tree limit and its issues.
    1. Im concerned that general 'core' enhancements will be distributed accross prestige trees. Many of our current enhancements have no connection with prestiges. A good example of this would be a casters spell damage lines. The prevalent suggestion to fix this was the implementation of a 'general tab'.

    2. Im concerned your stealing our 'duct tape'. On multiclass builds its the small enhancemnts from splash classes that tend to make everything gell.

    3. Any negative features of prestiges will have to go if prestige abilities are unlocked autromaticaly simply by spending points in a given tree. Eg savants oposing element penalties.


    -Things Id like to see in the new system.
    1. Certain enancements available to all, irelevant of class or race. The kind of enhancements Any adventurer might take. Things like how to use wands better, how to wear armour better, how to hit harder, how to run faster. If implemented this would reduce the issues with the 3 tree limitation.

    2. Spell caster damage lines available to All characters capable of 'casting' any spell of that type, Whatever the source of their magic - class lvls, past lives, dragon marks etc. For future proofing it would be simplest to make them available to all. Further more I see no reason why these lines should not effect mele damage, weapon effects, clickies, ki strikes etc. This would lead to build diversity such as for example a half elf dragon marked fighter specialised in shocking weapons. This is fixing an issue in the curent system, Curently for example clerics have no way to 'enhance their fire magic' despite having several fire based spells.

    3. Dragon marks to be improved and expanded - uses per day to regenerate/increase.

    4. True racial prestiges, that complement existing class prestiges. Especialy where a race has chosen their 'favoured class'

    5. Floating Trees. Trees that are unlocked (and can therefore replace any of your selected trees if you choose) by having certain feats/feat chains(eg dragon marks, whirlwind attack, 1 lvl of a given class, x lvls of 2 given classes)
    These floating trees are your future proofing, your way of introducting new powers, prestiges, etc.
    For the inital release of the enhancement re work Id suggest doing the dragon mark floating trees, and racial prestige floating trees.

    6. tip your head to traditional multiclassing in d&d history such as dwarven fighter/cleric, or Elf fighter/magic user.
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  3. #43
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    I would normally say that this is disappointing but that I'd prefer it late rather than wrong.

    BUT druid is coming with the expansion and people really need to know the enhancements for that class. It would seem pointless to make a druid only to have it's whole enhancement situation changed a matter of weeks later.

    I'll hold all my TRing and Druid making until the enhancements are sorted. Luckily I has loads of other toons

  4. #44
    Community Member Aeolwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Hey all,

    We just made the decision to postpone the new enhancement system until after XPack.

    Thanks again for all the feedback and support.
    Kinda ****** about this. Last time delays were put on prestige classes they never saw daylight. I can't help but feel this is another carrot.
    Last edited by Aeolwind; 04-14-2012 at 08:02 PM.
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  5. #45
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donblas View Post
    BUT druid is coming with the expansion and people really need to know the enhancements for that class. It would seem pointless to make a druid only to have it's whole enhancement situation changed a matter of weeks later.
    This is one of the things I'm wondering about.

    I'm glad you're taking the time to do it right, but I am disappointed not to see it coming with the expansion update. One of the PAX interviews said that this may get delayed to U14. If at all possible, throw it in before then, quite frankly as soon as you can have it ready and feel that it is ready to go. If you can have it ready to go 2-3 weeks after the expansion launches, I think a lot of people would be happy to see it then rather than waiting for U14 just for the sake of waiting until U14.

    My issue with it being delayed is I have lots of plans for new characters and TRs when the expansion hits, but I like to have my characters planned well out, I don't want to make or TR a character knowing there is a big change coming in 2 months time that's going to make me need to TR to fix it (several splash lvls, or not picking the race I'd prefer due to racial PrE options). I know you'll be giving respec's, but unless you make those able to alter race or change a few levels then this just postpones plans for TR'ing and makes me hesitant about new characters (and I really, really want to play druid).

    Once again, I understand, but I recommend doing everything you can to soften the blow this delay, I think addressing the issues that are going to keep people from TR'ing or building new characters would go a long way in making people happy. And keep talking!
    Khyber: Runforr 13/6/1 Rog/Ftr/Mnk, Bakup 3/3/1 Mnk/Pal/Rog (TR Pal), Faylah 14 Mnk (TR Mnk), Janthyra 12/7/1 Brb/Rog/Ftr, Ainbthech 20 Sor, Fliethas 18/2 Fvs/Mnk, Unfilled 12/6/2 Mnk/Rgr/Ftr, Arcanemark 10 Wiz "Don't eat us dragon! We're like you, but smaller. And fly worse." - Kobold Crewman on the Heart of Wind

  6. #46
    Community Member Aeolwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donblas View Post

    I'll hold all my TRing and Druid making until the enhancements are sorted. Luckily I has loads of other toons
    Don't wait, you can finish a TR (or dang close) before/if they finish this.
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  7. #47
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeolwind View Post
    Don't wait, you can finish a TR (or dang close) before/if they finish this.
    Well, understandable, but some take more time to do a TR and may have lots of characters they are playing on, which makes doing a TR a lot more of an investment, especially if the tokens and/or TP for TRing are scarce for them.
    Khyber: Runforr 13/6/1 Rog/Ftr/Mnk, Bakup 3/3/1 Mnk/Pal/Rog (TR Pal), Faylah 14 Mnk (TR Mnk), Janthyra 12/7/1 Brb/Rog/Ftr, Ainbthech 20 Sor, Fliethas 18/2 Fvs/Mnk, Unfilled 12/6/2 Mnk/Rgr/Ftr, Arcanemark 10 Wiz "Don't eat us dragon! We're like you, but smaller. And fly worse." - Kobold Crewman on the Heart of Wind

  8. #48
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Hey all,

    We just made the decision to postpone the new enhancement system until after XPack. A lot of work has been done on it, but too much remains and, more importantly, there's not enough time to iterate on the design and address feedback we've received so far.

    We're sad; the systems team has put in a lot of long hours towards this, but it's the right thing to do.

    Thanks again for all the feedback and support.
    Sorry to hear about the delay, HAPPY you are postponing it to do it right.

    Kudos!

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    I heard the devs hate all wizards, bards, clerics, fighters, and fuzzy bunnies and only want us to play halfling barbarian/paladin shuriken specialists!

    It's totally true, I have a reliable source. You better reroll now.
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  9. #49
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    A 3 tree system has nothing to do with WoW. Trees are just an easier way of looking at enhancements using a graphical interface over clunky lists. We have 3 trees because we had 3 PrE's planned out for each class for a long time and the changes were revolving around that.

    I'm interested in what prompted the push back in the feed back and what the where the current design ideas are heading so we can provide more feedback.

    If you are worried about losing the flavor of DnD then removing all of the enhancements would make sense since that is not how DnD applies action points whatsoever.

    EDIT: I'm also disappointed by the push back. I was looking forward to completed PrE's and multiple capstone choices.
    Minor disagreement here, but the tree system has nothing to do with wow like you said, the limit of three feels too much like wow's trees to me. However, as taste varies person to person, I can understand how others might not feel the same as me. That doesn't change my opinion though.

    I wouldn't actually be opposed to complete removal of enhancements. However, I do recognize their importance in the disign of this incarnation of DnD as a mmo. They allow much more progression to occur within the twenty level system that DnD uses, and progression is important in mmo design.

    If you look back in the enhancement thread, I was one of the first to propose the separate general enhancement tab, and I still believe this is what should be done. I play this game because it feels like DnD to me. A large part is caracter creation and development. When I choose a class to play I want to play that class. When I pick sorc I want to play a sorc not nessesarily a savant, when I pick favored soul it is because that is what I want to play, not an angel of vengence. The three tree system as it stands loses the flavor if DnD for me by FORCING you to pick one or more PREs, and that removal of choice is what is having me preparing for life without DDO.
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  10. #50
    Community Member EnjoyTheJourney's Avatar
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    I love the "three trees" idea, and whatever else keeps the new enhancement UI and system simple. Simple will speed up the development process. Simple means less things will break. Simple means streamlined development and Q&A for any future PREs not already promised. Simple means tooltips may be enough to work with the new enhancement system, which means no "wiki reading" homework to figure out how to make the enhancement system work to its best potential.

    On that note, WYSIWIG would be awesome, for enhancements. Absolutely awesome, and a breath of fresh air. Probably the vast majority of those who are silent would also prefer a simple enhancement system that's quick and easy to update and to expand, and that is more reliable for players because it's simple, especially given the level of complexity already associated with other parts of the game.

    On a related point, there are plenty of shinies we don't have in the game yet, shinies that will probably span both the F2P and the P2P categories. The opportunity costs of tying up devs for the extra time it would take to make enhancements complicated could be noticeable, and I'd rather not notice those costs.

    Make it simple, make it happen, and we can all then move on to other issues.

  11. #51
    I <3 DDO Pwesiela's Avatar
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    Anyway we can get a why it's delayed update? Like is it because of balancing issues, or because of coding issues, or design issues?

    But thanks for the delay. I'd rather it be done right and slow, than rushed and broken. Or worse, useless.
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  12. #52
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok.cry View Post
    If you look back in the enhancement thread, I was one of the first to propose the separate general enhancement tab, and I still believe this is what should be done. I play this game because it feels like DnD to me. A large part is caracter creation and development. When I choose a class to play I want to play that class. When I pick sorc I want to play a sorc not nessesarily a savant, when I pick favored soul it is because that is what I want to play, not an angel of vengence. The three tree system as it stands loses the flavor if DnD for me by FORCING you to pick one or more PREs, and that removal of choice is what is having me preparing for life without DDO.
    I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but the potential enhancement changes do open up for you to instead of making a savant instead of a sorc, you could make an archmage (sorc) instead of a savant, or angel of vengence (cleric) instead of a radiant servant, as well as tons of other possibilities. I think you should just keep up with the feedback and see how what actually comes out works out before saying goodbye (probably what you are doing, but I thought it was worth saying anyways).
    Khyber: Runforr 13/6/1 Rog/Ftr/Mnk, Bakup 3/3/1 Mnk/Pal/Rog (TR Pal), Faylah 14 Mnk (TR Mnk), Janthyra 12/7/1 Brb/Rog/Ftr, Ainbthech 20 Sor, Fliethas 18/2 Fvs/Mnk, Unfilled 12/6/2 Mnk/Rgr/Ftr, Arcanemark 10 Wiz "Don't eat us dragon! We're like you, but smaller. And fly worse." - Kobold Crewman on the Heart of Wind

  13. #53
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnjoyTheJourney View Post
    Make it simple, make it happen, and we can all then move on to other issues.
    This seems pretty simple to me


    Quote Originally Posted by bigolbear View Post
    BOBs Wishes
    Taking BOBs queue... here's my (updated) hopes : (I know it's probably selfish but I would love direct dev responses to these suggestions and the great ideas of others put forth in the enhancement thread and likely this one in the future)

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend

    1. Remove the Tree limit entirely the limited AP and Level gating is enough control (removing the level gating would be a nightmare to balance and would heavily favor 18/1/1 builds) also remove the "AP Spent" Limit...the only limiting factor to taking higher enhancements beyond level gating should be Pre-Reqs whether that be feats, stats or previous enhancements.


    2. Only allow 3 of said trees to be chosen as "PrE Bonus Enabled"


    3. Add a general tab with stuff like spell damage, monk stance, favored enemy, Stat boosts etc. with the relevant class levels as pre-reqs (ie. Fighter,Barb,etc. X for Mighty Strength X) anything that's part of the "core" class and only stuff directly related to the PrEs should be in the PrE trees (Great examples Here)


    4. Make the general tab have its own points system which is either gained X per character level (similar to how the Arty companion gains AP) or is gained based on which class you take that level with the latter only being necessary if there's a big gap in amount of general enhancements for the different classes.


    5. Make Stat boosts into 2 Types: Racial (Which is in your racial tab) and Class (ie. Mighty Strength or Incredible Intelligence..which should be in the general Tab)


    6. Add Hybrid PrEs...pre-reqs something likes this (More info Here)

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Tier 1 Bonus: Arcane1/Martial1 Character Level 3
    Tier 2 Bonus: Arcane2/Martial2 CL 6
    Tier 3 Bonus: Arcane4/Martial4 CL 9
    Tier 4 Bonus: Arcane5/Martial5 CL 12
    Tier 5 Bonus: Arcane6/Martial6 CL 15
    Tier 6 Bonus: Arcane7/Martial7 CL 18
    Capstone: Arcane10/Martial10 CL 20

    This way its still a flexible PrE but if you want the Capstone (which should be equal in power/usefulness as any other Capstone) your locked into those two classes (which depending on the Hybrid PrE could be fairly flexible still like Swiftblade = Arcane+Martial...or could be pretty much locked in like Self-Forged = Mech+Master Maker)

    The PrE Tree's themselves would likely contain boosts to both related PrEs/PrE Types to offset the fact that your missing 10 levels in said class as well as a bunch of things to enhance their unique abilities

    7. Remove Carbon Copied Racial PrEs and either leave it as-is or add actual racial PrEs

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Warforged: Reforged and Juggernaut (Let the player choose to embrace or shed their construct nature...oh and give Juggernaut an overhaul)
    Elf: AA and Bladesinger
    Dwarf: Dwarven Defender (Make it different than DoS & SD)
    Halfing: Talenta Outrider (Dunno if a mount is possible...so just make it a companion)
    Human: Steelsky Liberator (Good at fighting Larger Enemies with a focus on Dragons)
    Drow: Scorpion Wraith
    Half-Orc: Kal'thaan Marcher (This is probably spelled incorrectly)
    Half-Elf: Soulbow? and Any Class PrE based on Dilly (Yeah I know this sort of breaks my no Carbon Copy rule but it fits)

    8. Add in the favored class system in the form of reducing any Level gating in the favored class (ie. Dwarf = Fighter) by 2. With the caveat that you need at least one level in said class. Note that Half-Elf/Human Have Favored Class: Any so ALL level gating is reduced by 1 for them as opposed to the 2 in 1 class the other races have.


    9. Have about 60AP of worthwhile enhancements per PrE Tree


    10. Add a variable enhancement line to the Racial tab based on their chosen "Sub-race" (chosen at creation)


    11. Instead of AA (which is an Arcane PrE) Rangers should get the "Beastmaster" PrE which focuses on Animal Companions (similar to Arty dog), tracking skills (ie. can see enemies on minimap,etc.), terrain mastery (gets a different bonus based on terrain type or works similar to Monk "ways" and you get a bonus based on the terrain you choose) than give DWS a much needed boost to make up for the loss of AA.


    12. Rename Action points to Augmentation Points as it makes alot more sense :P


    13. Merge some enhancements (ie. Trapsmith = +1 DD & OL or Halfling Advantage = Halfling Cunning+Guile)


    14. Add more Racial Weapons both for racial enhancements (ie. Warforged Unarmed or Battlefist, Halfling Kukris,etc.) and FvS Favored Weapons (Ie. Dwarf D-Axe or Half-Orc Maul)


    15. Allow Favored Souls to choose "Cursed Soul" in the same way Monks can chose Balance or Dominion and thus gain a different set of bonus feats


    16. Give Clerics Domains.


    17. Give us Familiars (Any Arcane Caster), Animal Companions (Druid/Ranger), Dinosaurs (Halfling Racial PrE) and finally Palemaster Undead Minions all using the Arty Construct enhancement system. (See Here for more Info)


    18. Make more PrEs, Enhancements , Powers,etc. (Ie. Assassin, Ki Gain or Smiting) function with ranged combat most have little to no reason not to (mind you some like "Cleave" make sense not to)


    19. Go nuts with Wild Mage...make them powerful but make every time they use their abilities a Russian roulette of randomness, awesomeness and deadliness. Possibilities could include doubling the damage of the fireball or cause the fireball to become of AOE of harmless or even beneficial flowers, summon 2 monsters instead of one or summon 5 tiny useless purple monkeys, cause the user to become a barrel instead of casting whatever they were casting...again I say go nuts...or should I say WILD!!! :P


    20. Revamp the mock-up to keep things simple (See Here for more Info)


    Side-note: It would be cool if there was a checkbox for people with big screens to cause the UI to expand so you see all three (or four with a companion) tabs at once
    Unrelated thing I thought of while writing this out...It would be cool to Add in common monsters (aka Trash) that require tactics to take down ie. They can only be damaged from the back so you have to set-up flanking maneuvers to damage them or Their protected from all damage by an aura of fire but a snowball storm,gust of wind, trip, stun, etc. will all the aura cause the be removed in some way allowing them to be damaged. Stuff like that
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 04-14-2012 at 09:29 PM.
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  14. #54
    Community Member Havok.cry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diyon View Post
    I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but the potential enhancement changes do open up for you to instead of making a savant instead of a sorc, you could make an archmage (sorc) instead of a savant, or angel of vengence (cleric) instead of a radiant servant, as well as tons of other possibilities. I think you should just keep up with the feedback and see how what actually comes out works out before saying goodbye (probably what you are doing, but I thought it was worth saying anyways).
    For sure that is what Im doing. My farewell won't be, be said till they tie me down and try to force the funnel between my teeth. But my escape will be prepared well in advance. To be honest I was much more hopwful earlier on when they announced the change, but with the utter lack of a yay or nay on the general tab or other suggestions has given me a "UI changes" feel to this endevour.
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  15. #55
    Community Member Diyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    19. Go nuts with Wild Mage...make them powerful but make every time they use their abilities a Russian roulette of randomness, awesomeness and deadliness. Possibilities could include doubling the damage of the fireball or cause the fireball to become of AOE of harmless or even beneficial flowers, summon 2 monsters instead of one or summon 5 tiny useless purple monkeys, cause the user to become a barrel instead of casting whatever they were casting...again I say go nuts...or should I say WILD!!! :P
    That is EXACTLY the sort of thing I want to see for wild mage. Give us the rod of wonder (hell, this could be the one way you could manage to switch your character's gender in this game) and let the wild mage shenanigans go crazy! Have a chance of randomly making a buff spell better, or having it dance someone (caster? target? Unimportant!). When I play my wild mage I want to be chaos incarnate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    We just made the decision to postpone the new enhancement system until after XPack. A lot of work has been done on it, but too much remains and, more importantly, there's not enough time to iterate on the design and address feedback we've received so far.
    I know this have been a tough decision to make, but I'm glad that you made it now rather than in June. I'm even more glad that you made the decision now rather than launching a half-baked enhancement system in June. Thanks for having the courage to make this step and for prioritizing quality. I don't think I can communicate how much I appreciate it.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Hey all,

    We just made the decision to postpone the new enhancement system until after XPack. A lot of work has been done on it, but too much remains and, more importantly, there's not enough time to iterate on the design and address feedback we've received so far.

    We're sad; the systems team has put in a lot of long hours towards this, but it's the right thing to do.

    Thanks again for all the feedback and support.
    No, no... DO delay it - make sure it's right! I for one would rather you guys ALWAYS delay until it's right! It is indeed the right thing to do!

    (show this post to the suits - some of us would rather right than more)

  18. #58
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    I am very very sad to hear this. The enhancement revamp is what I was looking forward to most with the expansion. I live for the systems changes and updates. Now, the expansion is just a big adventure pack to me...

    However, I would much rather get it a little later than get it broken. So no nerd rage here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Octopusfluff View Post
    Personally, I think the three tree (plus racial) limit is actually a very good thing. It opens up a lot of options for balancing the trees against each other that weren't there before, such as fleshing out each tree to be more independent, and being able to provide more kinds of options. It also further diversifies the kinds of choices players can make that would be meaningful.

    Some types of variety only exist under some types of constraint.
    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    So limiting choice creates more choice...Really because my plan is to make robots to murder all kobolds every 50 years so the kobolds cant make robots that will most likely kill them.
    What Octo said is actually a pretty well established thing in the game industries. If you have design constraints, you get very creative in how you design to get stuff you want or need. Mark Rosewater espouses that all the time and, love him or hate him, he's got to be one of the most prestigious game designers on earth.

    Without tree limits, you could get cherry picking of the best enhancements (which is what happens now), where every multiclass split with the same classes and levels takes the same bulk of enhancements. With the 3 tree limit, you don't. There's going to be real choices to make on what trees you take, with pros and cons of each tree being considered (assuming that all trees are equally viable and there's no terrible trees), and different choices based on what different players value higher (some may take all DPS trees to max out their DPS, some might take a mix of trees to maximize versatility or self-sufficiency, etc). It's going to mean more variety.

    But this stuff has been hashed out to death on the other thread. So maybe we should just agree to disagree and keep this thread mostly clear of that stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeolwind View Post
    Don't wait, you can finish a TR (or dang close) before/if they finish this.
    I can't really, because I have 34 toons on Khyber - they don't get enough playtime each to allow one to go from lvl1 to 20 in a short time. It's taken me two years to cap two of them.

    EDIT: Darnit! I replied immediately I saw your post and didn't see that Diyon had made my point for me!
    Last edited by donblas; 04-15-2012 at 12:30 AM. Reason: Got new info

  20. #60
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterboytkd View Post
    What Octo said is actually a pretty well established thing in the game industries. If you have design constraints, you get very creative in how you design to get stuff you want or need. Mark Rosewater espouses that all the time and, love him or hate him, he's got to be one of the most prestigious game designers on earth.

    Without tree limits, you could get cherry picking of the best enhancements (which is what happens now), where every multiclass split with the same classes and levels takes the same bulk of enhancements. With the 3 tree limit, you don't. There's going to be real choices to make on what trees you take, with pros and cons of each tree being considered (assuming that all trees are equally viable and there's no terrible trees), and different choices based on what different players value higher (some may take all DPS trees to max out their DPS, some might take a mix of trees to maximize versatility or self-sufficiency, etc). It's going to mean more variety.
    This is so true.

    No better way to increase the number of cookie-cutter builds than to give everyone access to 60-80 AP worth of enhancements that feel like must-takes.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

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