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  1. #421
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    Keeping up with this thread has been a virtual impossibility. It is rather heartening to see such activity on this topic as it means I am not alone in hoping this game yet can evolve into a more D&D like game play experience.

    Some of the most recent points Id like to cover are the idea that simpler is better. D20 is a system frankly built upon min maxxing and the meta game. These are aspects of playing in 3E+ D&D that are some of the reasons those who had played earlier editions had a hard time accepting the reality of.

    They are not aspects I was happy with are the reasons I chose to go back to AD&D and hackmaster 4E eventually.

    However they are the cornerstone of 3E+. Hence trying to stifle character building into pre defined roles based on class choice and making multi classing even less of an option by forcing PREs to be more class specific are horrible ideas that make me doubt those who conceived them lack any real DM experience.

    Simplicity is not the answer. Nor does a lack of choices equal more options in play. Players who want a holy trinity system have numerous and much more populous MMO to go enjoy. While those of us who favor a more free form character building system have very few options and those outside DDO are even more buggy and lacking in content then DDO in its worst era.

    Free form character creation and trying to pick the most optimal combo for the playstyle you feel comfortable in and enjoy is the back bone and saving grace of DDO. Anything that changes to make sticking to a single class the way to play will be a reason to not play DDO anymore. Since NWNO will play like that I wonder why you would want to destroy a 3E based MMO when the 4E based one will do exactly what you want and make what you play an easy choice of DPS, support, and tank. It will be even more simplistic to play then older MMO like City of Heroes which had it down perfectly when it came to playing an archtype like a tank within the role, but giving the tools for those interested to take the AT out of the box and be more.

    Being in the box is fine for some, but many find it to restrictive. Trying to force one into a specific role is far more harmful to a game then letting everyone be capable of fulfilling every need for themselves while working with others that do the same.

  2. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blayster View Post
    I have missed 99% of this thread, but if the information in ddowiki is still valid, I have to agree with this post. Having 3 different PrE sounds a bit too much, no? I like the Race+Class+one-PrE idea better...
    this one I feel the need to personally adress. if it went live I would have all my characters ruined and have 0 reason to keep playing. there are many innovative and fun to play 12/6 and even 6/6/6/ splits currently used to have multiple PRE some for flavor some for min maxxing.

    In 3E+ there is no limit on the number of classes you can have, the imposed 3 class system we have is an artificial mechanic that already cripples the real potential we should be capable of.

    In PnP Prestige classes are often taken only a few lvls in and many have as many as 10 different prestige classes lightly touched by a standard lvl 20 cap. Most famous NPCs listed in 3e+ books have 4 or more standard classes on top of PRCs.

    Racial PRC like arcane archer in PnP can ONLY be used by elves and half elves. In fact racial PRC tend to be the most powerful due to tight feat/skill reqs in addition to the racial req. This is why PRC like the Drow Two Weapon Master is does in 5 levels what a class any race can take like whirling dervish can do in 10 lvls.

    Funny enough in PnP splat books typically the elven PRC are the very best. Elflord of the high reach, drow two weapon master, elven battle dancer, and the real Bladesinger from the Relic series where some of the most must have PRC i ever came across and not one person afraid of the elves and their weaker con could ever hope to be as powerful as an elf.

    For example if you where an elf ranger with the elflord of the high reach PRC no magical healer nor regeneration works against any damage you deal to your favored enemy. Imagine if elven rangers had such a PRC how potent they would become when dealing with mobs prone to self healing in one form or another. No other race has or could have a PRC that does that due to the RP concept of an elves hatred being a potent mystical force that when channeled will even make gawds tremble.

  3. #423
    Community Member -Avalon-'s Avatar
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    Oh, if they bring in the true racial prestige classes (and since I already love Elves and Drow in DDO), I will be playing an Elven Champion of Corellon Larethian (since they brought in FR, Corellon is not out of expectations!!)

    A little off-topic, but from what I read, the main reason for adding FR stuff was because they wanted to change the game from (basically) being Eberron Online, to being DDO (D&D online)... D&D is made up of multiple worlds and planes, why limit ourselves to one world and a very small amount of it at that...

    So, what I am waiting on, is for them to make a starting location and quests on FR... give players 2 different starting locations... and as they add more worlds, add more starting locations and options... FR has so many options that are off-limits because the game is so Eberron Flavored... If they add Krynn, OMG the possibilities!!

    Just my thoughts... if you truly want a game that has more customizable characters than any other around... Do that!
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  4. #424
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    Usually I am all for taking their time and not rushing half finished things into game. However this update was first discussed in April (I think) and first it was supposed to be part of the expansion...soon after it became evident that it would be released after expansion since it was not yet ready. That was 5 months ago.

    Now with all the things scheduled for this year I have not seen any mention of this enhancement update.

    My issue with this is that it is really difficult to plan any new characters without almost any knowledge of how the classes, races, PRCs will all mesh together in the future. Thus I dont want to roll any new characters before this goes live or before I at least have a very good idea how it will work.

    I am just hoping to get some more concrete info rather then we will release when it is ready...

  5. #425
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valakai View Post
    Usually I am all for taking their time and not rushing half finished things into game. However this update was first discussed in April (I think) and first it was supposed to be part of the expansion...soon after it became evident that it would be released after expansion since it was not yet ready. That was 5 months ago.
    No, they said they hoped and they were trying for, not that it was supposed to be part of U14.
    U14 was never a set in stone date for enhancement update. Which many of us took to mean that as U14 was missed, they'd deff be able to make U15.

    Yeah.. saw that boat come and go. maybe by the end of next year. If that.

  6. #426
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    No, they said they hoped and they were trying for, not that it was supposed to be part of U14.
    U14 was never a set in stone date for enhancement update. Which many of us took to mean that as U14 was missed, they'd deff be able to make U15.

    Yeah.. saw that boat come and go. maybe by the end of next year. If that.
    I'm fine with them taking as long as they want (hopefully less than druids took :P), my hopes are the extended delays are in part related to the negative response to the original concept.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    I'm fine with them taking as long as they want (hopefully less than druids took :P), my hopes are the extended delays are in part related to the negative response to the original concept.
    If as long as they want is never is that fine with you?

  8. #428
    Community Member -Avalon-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodoldxelos View Post
    If as long as they want is never is that fine with you?
    I sense a subtle message here... you're not saying this is a 'carrot' are you?
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  9. #429
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    NOTE: I have only read a couple pages back, and am taking the way it looks to mean no dev interaction lately. this may not be the case, and if I am wrong, please quicly inform me with a way to confirm so I can post an apology to the devs.


    my only concern is the devs have not given us any idea as to when to expect this. Not even something along the lines of "This is taking a rather long time, feel free to TR because we aren't going to be done before you get to 20 again most likely." I'm afraid to think about TRing my main toon once I get him to 20 again because maybe the devs will finish the enhancement system update before I get back to 20 and it will totally gimp my build. Imagine being on your 4th life, getting to level 5, and because you didn't have enough warning, are now totally gimped. I don't want to deal with this, and since the enhancement update will probably break most major builds out there, it would be nice to know a timeframe, even if it is just "Pretty far away, won't happen before you get back to 20 probably" or "Getting closer, might want to get a lesser heart of wood if you TR."

    Or, if you don't want to keep us in the know, promise free +20 LRs to anyone who TRed within a week or two of the update.

    Also, I have to say that these threads were a great idea, but it would be better if the devs would make the players feel like their feedback mattered more. Saying stuff like "Great idea, we'll look at it" or "Not going to work, how about X instead?" These things allow the players to let the devs know whether an update will be a hit or downfall earlier, allows the players to feel appreciated and know that big changes won't happen that screw their builds over without having some time to adjust, while effectively giving the devs a brainstorming team the size of probably 1/2 to the full size of the forums.

  10. #430
    Community Member EdgarLockheart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Avalon- View Post
    I sense a subtle message here... you're not saying this is a 'carrot' are you?
    This may be a carrot. It looks like a carrot. Smells like a carrot. I don't really care if it's a carrot or not. If we all keep trudging along we'll eventually be rewarded with said carrot and it will hopefully be a VERY good carrot.

  11. #431
    Community Member Requiro's Avatar
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    Why not add PrE Points? With changes with trees:
    - 1 Tree Race (with one Race PrE)
    - 1-3 Tree Class (With 3-5 different Class PrE per Class)

    When we spend point in Tree we get PrE point in that tree (maybe 1 PrE point with 5 AP Points spend?) plus one Capstone for 41 spend AP (only for Tier 6 PrE). With limitation of 80 points, there will be possibility of something like:

    - Full Tier 6 + Capstone PrE from one Tree (41-50 AP) + 6 Tier PrE without Capstone from second Tree (30-39 AP)
    - Max 4 Tiers of 4 Pre with 3 multiclass (3x Class (3x20AP)+ 1x Race (1x20AP)) without Capstone
    - Any other combination that will be “the best” for us.

    That will solve multiclass problem, will not be overpowered when balanced well ,and will be much more logical for everyone. And the best part from D&D - a lot of possible combination that will made character unique. Idk if that proposal was add in that thread - 22 pages is to much to read all.
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  12. #432
    Community Member Lyria's Avatar
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    In PnP Prestige classes are often taken only a few lvls in and many have as many as 10 different prestige classes lightly touched by a standard lvl 20 cap. Most famous NPCs listed in 3e+ books have 4 or more standard classes on top of PRCs.
    Really? That seems completely strange to me. It's been a while since I've played PnP, but seriously, a 20th level character who's like 6 Fighter/3 Rogue/3 Wizard/1 Bard/2 Arcane Archer/3 Shadowblade/1 Spellblade/1 Loremaster or something? That's not a character, that's an exercise in silliness.

    Unless things have changed DRASTICALLY in the few years I've been away from PnP gaming, "most" characters aren't layered in a half-dozen classes or more.

    <edit> If you mean "famous characters" like Elminster, The Simbul, etc, they're not meant to be representative of "real" characters. They're Deus Ex Machina, given whatever powers they need to back up their abilities to do whatever the plot needs them to do.
    Last edited by Lyria; 09-21-2012 at 01:37 PM.

  13. #433
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyria View Post
    Really? That seems completely strange to me. It's been a while since I've played PnP, but seriously, a 20th level character who's like 6 Fighter/3 Rogue/3 Wizard/1 Bard/2 Arcane Archer/3 Shadowblade/1 Spellblade/1 Loremaster or something? That's not a character, that's an exercise in silliness.

    Unless things have changed DRASTICALLY in the few years I've been away from PnP gaming, "most" characters aren't layered in a half-dozen classes or more.
    Third edition certainly did have alot of incentive to do that sort of thing. Can not speak for fourth as I never played it.
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  14. #434
    Community Member Lyria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    Third edition certainly did have alot of incentive to do that sort of thing. Can not speak for fourth as I never played it.
    I never felt any incentive to do stuff like that with my characters in 3rd ed. Generally if I went for a PrC it was because I wanted to actually, you know, FINISH it. Not just take the first ability in it and then move on to another class. Not to mention our group tended to frown on the whole 'minmax' thing. If it didn't make sense in-character, why are you doing it? Stop that, silly PC.

    Never touched 4th ed. I looked at it briefly but it didn't feel like D&D to me, so I never bothered to buy/play/learn it.

  15. #435
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyria View Post
    Really? That seems completely strange to me. It's been a while since I've played PnP, but seriously, a 20th level character who's like 6 Fighter/3 Rogue/3 Wizard/1 Bard/2 Arcane Archer/3 Shadowblade/1 Spellblade/1 Loremaster or something? That's not a character, that's an exercise in silliness.

    It was quite common with power gamers and was banned from my groups at most I'd allow 4 classes but I preferred people stick to 2 or 3.

    I really like that DDO did the same, I also really like how DDO handled prestige classes, before I switched over to 4e I was working on a guild system whereas you could continue to level like normal using Base classes but would gain extra abilities (whatever the PrC would gain) as you leveled based on the guild (or clan, or brotherhood, or w/e) you joined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyria View Post
    Never touched 4th ed. I looked at it briefly but it didn't feel like D&D to me, so I never bothered to buy/play/learn it.
    I've been playing 4e for quite a while and while it did do a few stupid things it also did alot of great...namely actually making non-casters useful at higher levels and giving spellcasters something to do during lower levels in the form of weak at-will spells (as opposed to 3.5 which at lvl 1 you had a few "daily" spells and you were done)

    On that note though I'm really looking forward to DnD Next which is bringing the Vancian magic system back but it's turning cantrips (Light, Magic Missile,Shocking Touch,etc.) into At-wills. Multiclassing is returning to the 3e way but they say they working on something to keep the 6/1/2/3/2/1/2/1/2/1 builds from returning...unfortunately they haven't unveiled it yet. It looks quite interesting so far, I plan on running a playtest next weekend...you guys should check it out (DnD Next not the game I'm running :P)
    http://www.wizards.com/dnd/dndnext.aspx (playtest material)
    http://community.wizards.com/go/foru...232783/dd_next (Official forums)
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 09-21-2012 at 02:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  16. #436
    Community Member Lyria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    It was quite common with power gamers and was banned from my groups at most I'd allow 4 classes but I preferred people stick to 2 or 3. (I really like that DDO did the same - I also really like how DDO handled prestige classes, before I switched over to 4e I was working on a guild system whereas you could continue to level like normal using Base classes but would gain extra abilities [whatever the PrC would gain] as you leveled based on the guild you joined)
    I never played with any real powergamers, so I guess that's why I never saw anything like that. Our group would have smacked someone who tried to build a character like that.

    I've been playing 4e for quite a while and while it did do a few stupid things it also did alot of great...namely actually making non-casters useful at higher levels and giving spellcasters something to do during lower levels in the form of weak at-will spells (as opposed to 3.5 which at lvl 1 you had like 2 "daily" spells)
    We always used to make cantrips "at-will" spells. We'd tend to use the optional "spell points" system rather than memorization slots, as well, since it made more sense. Allowed for a lot more flexibility with casters.

    What I found incredibly silly about 4th ed was that they gave "abilities" to every class, and arbitrarily limited them. "You can only use Giant Anime Leap-Slash two times per encounter", or "You can only cast Fireball once per encounter, but up to 3 times per day", etc. It made it less like D&D and more like a console game.

    On that note though I'm really looking forward to DnD Next which is bringing the Vancian magic system back but it's turning cantrips into At-wills. Multiclassing is returning to the 3e way but they say they working on something to keep the 6/1/2/3/2/1/2/1/2/1 builds from returning...unfortunately they haven't unveiled it yet. It looks quite interesting so far, I plan on runnign a playtest next weekend...you guys shoudl check it out http://www.wizards.com/dnd/dndnext.aspx
    I just wish I could still play PnP. I moved a few years ago up into the middle of nowhere, and I can't find people up here who game. *sniff*

  17. #437
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyria View Post
    I never played with any real powergamers, so I guess that's why I never saw anything like that. Our group would have smacked someone who tried to build a character like that.
    Power gamers never really lasted long in my home games (mostly cause they hated my 3-4 class limit) but I saw them alot when I played at the local gaming store.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lyria View Post
    We always used to make cantrips "at-will" spells. We'd tend to use the optional "spell points" system rather than memorization slots, as well, since it made more sense. Allowed for a lot more flexibility with casters.
    Thats a house rule so doesn't really count, but yeah apparently it was quite a popular huse rule which is why WOTC (almost said turbine) put it in 4e


    Quote Originally Posted by Lyria View Post
    What I found incredibly silly about 4th ed was that they gave "abilities" to every class, and arbitrarily limited them. "You can only use Leap-Slash two times per encounter", or "You can only cast Fireball once per encounter, but up to 3 times per day", etc. game.
    Yeah it was kinda stupid although it made sense in a purely mechanical sense and we just excepted it, roleplayed it as "flourishes" and "lucky strikes"...for some classes it made sense though like the artificer alot of her encounter powers are based on stuff she builds during short rests, and psion have no encounter powers just at-wills that can be enhanced...anyways that's why I like how D&D next is going to be At-Will for most and Vancian for Wizards and something similar to an SP system for Sorcerors...not really sure how warlock works...haven't read much into that class

    I just wish I could still play PnP. I moved a few years ago up into the middle of nowhere, and I can't find people up here who game. *sniff*
    No worries I actually stopped played DnD after I left high school (that was 12 years ago) and only got back into DnD about 2 maybe 3 years ago because of the release of 4e which caused a spike in new people trying it out and I happened to be browsing in my game store on a night a "D&D encounters" was happening and I was bored waiting for a ride so I joined in for something to do despite the fact that I was expecting to hate it (only had the internets opinions of the game :P) but after a bit I got into it...actually my ride showed and I got her to join in to...played there for about a year...managed to poach 3 people from there and started a home game...now were up to about 7 (we were up to 9 but they were GFs and they stop coming when those relationships went south)
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 09-21-2012 at 03:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  18. #438
    Community Member -Avalon-'s Avatar
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    Think best house rule for casters I ever saw was the "1/3 Rule"...

    At 3rd lvl spells, a number of 1st lvl spells = Int/wis/cha mod (depending on caster type) became at will spells (your choice)... at 6th lvl spells, do same for 2nd level spells, at 9th lvl spells, do same for 3rd level spells...

    At any point if your Mod went up, you added another to each tier, if your mod went down, you lost one...

    It made it so that casters had to pick and choose their high level spells, but a compliment of 1-3 lvl spells would always be there for them to use. A wizard who is 17th-X Epic level SHOULD be able to toss fireballs and lightning bolts around for kicks, blasting away huge swaths of enemy fodder in a major battle...

    Also, when you visit the local church, how many DM's have ever told their players, "sorry, you cannot seek aid today... it's first come first served, and our clerics can no longer cast cure light wounds... you will have to come back tomorrow!"... No, they ALWAYS have more Cures lol... That 5th lvl cleric? Yeah, may take an hour, but he will CLW your 20th lvl butt back to full health if you want...

    When characters get to higher levels (tiers of 5/6th lvl, 11/12th lvl, 17/18th lvl) the game is SUPPOSED to change, and casters need that little bump to assist with that change... never saw a melee run out of cleaves, or stop fighting because he used up all of his attacks for the day... Casters shouldn't either as they go up in level...
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  19. #439
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Wow that is a really cool idea and makes total sense within the context of the world.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 09-21-2012 at 04:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  20. #440
    Community Member -Avalon-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Wow that is a really cool idea and makes total sense within the context of the world.
    I am not sure, so have to ask... Sarcasm or Honesty? lol
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