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Thread: Why Lolth?

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by quijenoth View Post

    I never really read the novels from Forgotten Realms. I preferred Dragonlance.

    I do, however, play and run more FR than anything else, and I think its more to do with how forgotten realms was originally presented. Forgotten Realms replaced Greyhawk for much of 2nd Edition AD&D and that's really when I started playing D&D regularly.

    The original FR presented multiple "settings" from vikings to the far east and is a parallel world with many similarities to our own (like the Moonshae Isles resembling the UK and most of the main continent reflecting Europe, Africa, and Asia). Its these choices that made FR more popular to a larger audience. Then along came the Underdark, the Drow (with Drizzt), Myth Drannor, and the Time of Troubles (Godswar). These made the realms what it is today.

    Regardless of what you love about the Realms, it has something for everyone and that makes it timeless.
    You see, I skipped 2nd edition, didn't have any friends 'into' D&D during those times, we played other games. I never read any of the novels either. Did read Dragonlance and liked those well enough. But never really played the setting.

    My major introduction to FR was with 3.5, my players were interested so I picked up the 3.5 source materials for FR, but the books really were not laid out well. It was difficult to find information and it was way too much one book referencing another book referencing another book.

    I am bad with pre-made settings anyway, I tend to make my own NPCs and kill off the ones already there, unless I really like them (rare).


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    *Handwraps. Yes we know. Here is my known issue for handwraps. Hand wraps in assorted flavors are borked.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardoor View Post
    I pointed out earlier that I have the first edition Monster Manual, so I have been playing long enough to be familiar with things like Boothill being an option of the game. I would be surprised if Turbine decided to incorporate guns and steam engines though. If they did, I think they are missing the point about why so many are looking forward to the FR vs the setting of Eberron.

    Dinosaurs, firearms, gamma world etc, they have been issues with DnD for a long time. I just happen to be someone who doesn't need those genres mixed in to enjoy my sword and sorcery. I find them distracting.

    A mad wizard creating Frankenstein (Flesh Golem) is fine. Even an occassional Iron Golem is fine. IMO, Eberron loses the magic of sword and sorcery by making robots so common.

    For those who mentioned they like change earlier, maybe you will be ok with the FR being nothing like Eberron?
    Making sorcerous creations and other uses of magic so common is something peculiar to Eberron. The Realms is more traditional in that magic is generally more concentrated in the forms of mages in the setting, but rarer.
    I wouldn't worry about there being too much technology in the Realms part of DDO though: they are unlikely to spread far beyond the region that makes them.

    Anyway. *Sidles back to topic* Eberron is definitely more of a niche appeal setting among D&D gamers, so a move to the Realms makes sense in terms of attracting more of them.
    The Eberron gods are intangible and do not manifest, so you couldn't have one start interfering in another realm, whereas Lolth could well exist as a powerful devil there. Therefore, since once players have crossed realms they are going to want something to hit, it makes more sense to make the antagonist Lolth. Her existence is confirmed there, and can (and will probably) manifest to give post-epic characters something to beat on.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ciaran View Post
    LOL! Good memories!

    However, I said his descendant, not Valygar himself.
    Only problem with that is that Valygar was gay.

    He was the only male character that accepted the offer of the male drow prostitute for a "massage"

    and even if he weren't gay he made it pretty clear that he was dead set on being the last of his lineage.

    Valygar was definitely one of my favorite characters.

  4. #144
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    holy necro batman..

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    holy necro batman..
    HEY!
    Thats my line!

    As for Why Loth? Basement dwelling fanboy Dev's get whet sheets from dreaming of Elminster XD

    Now that we're zombiefying this thread, i wonder if U13 and everything that came after had the effect they wanted.
    It might just be the server i play on but i've seen the population drop slowly since that pack.
    There have been numerous bugs, patches, lag increased (with less people???), exploits, complaints about sub par writting, lack of end game, lack of raids etc.

    Can we find some correlation between these observations?

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by theblackwolf View Post
    Well she can change form, so she can probably be whatever she likes lol. Although I'd imagine even looking at them could get you punished (although some people like that). XD

    If FR is so popular you wonder why they set the MMO in Eberron to begin with rather than FR. And personally I reckon they'll compete better with the Neverwinter MMO by offering something different. FR was the first setting I heard of, but the one I've played the most is probably Mystara.

    I admit Lolth is one of the most well known deities anywhere and I'd never heard of Vulkoor before I looked him up. Everyone knows who the Spider Queen is. And spiders are more menacing than scorpions, although that may just be because there are no scorpions in NZ and I'm arachnophobic.

    Still, I hope they try and include Vulkoor and the Eberron Drow somehow. After all, this spider woman is muscling in on his turf. XD



    Yeah the panther figurine offered to Collectors' Edition subscribers totally doesn't make you think of anyone. DX

    Lolth is Chaotic Evil; sometimes she wants you to look at them, sometimes she doesn't and gets very angry at those who do.

    In this way, she really is just like every other woman.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antheal View Post
    I'd never even heard of Eberron until I started playing DDO.

    I thought Forgotten Realms *was* Dungeons & Dragons.
    /cry

    R.I.P Greyhawk
    Quote Originally Posted by Jandric View Post
    ..., but I honestly think the solution is to group with less whiny people.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by theblackwolf View Post
    Well she can change form, so she can probably be whatever she likes lol. Although I'd imagine even looking at them could get you punished (although some people like that). XD

    If FR is so popular you wonder why they set the MMO in Eberron to begin with rather than FR. And personally I reckon they'll compete better with the Neverwinter MMO by offering something different. FR was the first setting I heard of, but the one I've played the most is probably Mystara.
    it wasn't started in FR bc at the time DDO came out Wotc was not the owners of the content that turbine was after I cant remember who it was at this time but wotc finaly said enough and took back over when they saw turbine was getting screwed over. ik this isn't the whole story but I cant remember it right now still haven't had a cup of coffee to get my brain going so I apologize ahead of time.
    Demons run when a good man goes to war

  9. #149
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    Licenses for the forgotten realms belong to hasbro and i think bandai too. R.A. Salvatore says allways that in his Facebook.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lyrecono View Post
    Now that we're zombiefying this thread, i wonder if U13 and everything that came after had the effect they wanted.
    For what it's worth, Underdark was what got me interested in DDO enough to try it last year after swearing off MMORPGs. My last time playing D&D was 1st Edition PnP in the late 80's so I'd skipped Forgotten Realms completely. Lolth dates back to Greyhawk and can arguably fit into any setting. The Drow in FR seem to be directly carried over from 1st Edition in their religion, culture, etc so it's effectively the same setting. DDO's expansion is just the latest in a long series of rewrites of Vault Of The Drow and Demonweb Pits, and much as I'm fond of the original modules it's a vast improvement on them.

    Eberron took some getting used to but it won me over. The older D&D worlds struggled to be "Tolkien but not Tolkien", especially with the player races (elves, dwarves, hobbits no halflings) that could get labored and predictable. It's been fun getting to know Eberron's familiar but different takes on everything. And while the Greyhawk/FR Drow were iconic they were also written as a monoculture, all in the same S&M outfits with the same goddess. Eberron's scrappy diverse Drow are more fun to be around.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by theblackwolf View Post
    I read up on Eberron after I started playing DDO and discovered that the Eberron Drow have their own history and their own God, Vulkoor.

    http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Vulkoor

    So why not use him as an antagonist instead of trying to cross over with the Forgotten Realms? It seems a lot of effort to make plausible when if you want a Drow adversary there's already an Eberron one.
    For us old players who played the quests on paper and also played the original chains on paper. Against the giants (G1 to G3). Descent Chain (D1 to D3). And dungeon module Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits the origin of the ES Chains. The Underdark chains from Lord of Dust all the way to CITW are the finest work in my opinion to come out of this game. Whoever was primary on those deserves a medal i still stop and look around in awe at the awesomeness of those chains don't change a thing.
    Theleb Karna

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow View Post
    /cry

    R.I.P Greyhawk
    Nah Greyhawk is alive and well my friend its on a shelf next to the Judges Guild campaign and the Forgotten Realms and three of my campaigns .. Think of Eberron as a campaign. R.I.P. Gary Gygax. Gone but not forgotten. DDO would be a different game if he hadn't taken the ship to the undying lands. Theleb bows in humbleness before the monument to the great Gygax every time he enters Deleras graveyard.
    Theleb Karna

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    Ya but why do the realms when there is tons untouched on eberron?
    Because a lot of us players actually dislike Eberron. Now there are choices, and choices are good. I play ddo becaue the game is inherently fun despite it being in a drab, unpleasant setting, but putting it in a setting I found fun and have a lot of nostalgia entertainment with made me stick around a long time longer than I would have otherwise. Which I suspect was part of their goal. I also don't wonder if WOTC didn't have something to do with it, as they seem to be relying more heavily n the realms again lately with their tabletop and novel products.
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  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    Because a lot of us players actually dislike Eberron. Now there are choices, and choices are good. I play ddo becaue the game is inherently fun despite it being in a drab, unpleasant setting, but putting it in a setting I found fun and have a lot of nostalgia entertainment with made me stick around a long time longer than I would have otherwise. Which I suspect was part of their goal. I also don't wonder if WOTC didn't have something to do with it, as they seem to be relying more heavily n the realms again lately with their tabletop and novel products.
    The unfortunate thing is that for whatever reason, DDO never really was able to hook the player base into the lore and storylines of Eberron, they tried but it just never happened.. maybe it has something to do with the fact we've only seen one small city in the most obscure continent on the world. As a pen and paper player, I find Eberron way cooler, probably because drow dridders, lolth and elminster in every session bored the hell outta me right quick. The shifters, changlings, Kalashtar, Karnnath undead, deathless of Arenal... all super cool.
    I love your point though, having choice is great and the duel settings might keep more players playing. That said I really hope they don't abandon Eberron all together given all that remains untouched within the setting.
    The OP has a good point too, Vulkoor is an extremely vengeful deity... I imagine stealing followers might not sit will with him, maybe some vengeance is in order
    Meh.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katrina View Post
    The unfortunate thing is that for whatever reason, DDO never really was able to hook the player base into the lore and storylines of Eberron, they tried but it just never happened.. maybe it has something to do with the fact we've only seen one small city in the most obscure continent on the world.
    Eberron can be a little on the complex side. For example with MMOs people generally want a clear-cut idea of who the goodies are and who the baddies are. Eberron with its more varied alignments is great for a PnP game, but can be too fuzzy for an MMO. Forgotten Realms with its Evil Drow, Goodly faiths with an actual God at the head, and colour-coded dragons is clearer.


    As a pen and paper player, I find Eberron way cooler, probably because drow dridders, lolth and elminster in every session bored the hell outta me right quick. The shifters, changlings, Kalashtar, Karnnath undead, deathless of Arenal... all super cool.
    I love your point though, having choice is great and the duel settings might keep more players playing. That said I really hope they don't abandon Eberron all together given all that remains untouched within the setting.
    The OP has a good point too, Vulkoor is an extremely vengeful deity... I imagine stealing followers might not sit will with him, maybe some vengeance is in order
    Bear in mind the differences between the deities of the settings. The existence of the Sovereign Host is accepted, but not proven. They don't communicate directly with their followers, come down to walk around in the world (except perhaps the Traveller) or boff author-avatars. You can't simply use a stock spell to travel to their home and beat them up.
    In short, the priesthood of Vulkoor might decide to act against the Spinner/Lolth, but Vulkoor himself won't.

  16. #156
    neck deep member Powskier's Avatar
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    obvious they used Lolth to help draw old dice players in .She was originally in realm of Greyhawk.1978 was release of Vault of th eDrow and 1980 was Queen of the Demonweb Pits...gosh D&D was fun b4 computers
    Mercyful Fate/ King Diamond link{ http://www.kingdiamondcoven.com } /''horror and moral terror are your friends'',Col. Kurtz/King Diamond Coven , lvl 80Ghallanda /51 Sarlona

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katrina View Post
    As a pen and paper player, I find Eberron way cooler, probably because drow dridders, lolth and elminster in every session bored the hell outta me right quick. The shifters, changlings, Kalashtar, Karnnath undead, deathless of Arenal... all super cool.
    I'm sorry, you must have had a really dull DM. Ours had us all over the realms, and Lolth and the other Underdark gods were the ones we had the least contact with, but we did cross wits with plans by just about all of the evil deities trying to save people. But we had a lot of humans in our group that had vision issues in the dark and wanted to stay on the surface world. L OL I think in the three years I was in one ongoing campaign from 1 to godhood Eminster was a thing lierally three times. And one of those times was only because we were near Shadowdale and needed information, and thought the "sage of shadowdale" probably at least pretended to be a sage and offered information services too.

    I think the weirdest was the knucklebone trout incident, darn dm had way too much funfishing and decided we were going to fish too like it or not. LOL
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  18. #158
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    Never seen Orcus in a game so far.....

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    The fact is that even for D&D lore nuts the truth of the Drow, or Daoi Sith as they are most notably known in real world myth is something that takes a strange ability to read between the lines to fully understand. It also helps if you actually created a character who would go on to master the ability to travel through time and space and end up discovering his own origin was directly tied to the near total extinction of the First Born!

    Now even for those who might only be passing in elf lore due to something like LOTR are likely familiar with the much vaunted elven longevity that borders on unending life. In D&D this to some extent is also the case, as its well known that they have depending on the setting and edition some pretty big dice for their life span roles, and are the only ones rarely effect by campaigns that stretch into the decades in ingame world time.

    However both official splat books and real world myths hint at what I borrowing a favored term from the john carter of mars books, call the First Born. Its known in D&D elvish lore that the first elves where born of moonlight and magic, and where more akin to siblings of the elven pantheon then mere mundane mortal reflections like all other races dully are.

    Something else to consider is in the real world if one researches elvish things enough one learns they are considered to be what are popularly called angels by another name and concept. This seems logical to be compared to if one thinks of the First Born and their origins. Hence the logical next step Drow are not unlike fallen angels or even demonkind, and lolth is very much D&Ds comparison to the Devil.

    And although she is mainly seen as a Drow Diety she is also favored by all females who murder their mates. And sentient spider races.

    In the war between Light and Dark, the First Born where divided due to their desperate love to save their children from mortality, and lies whispered by the jilted Lolth whom felt slighted as the 2nd lover to that beauty of a arrogant icon himself Correllian Lariathion, so First Born battled first born, until the last that stood was the general of the dark army himself the one who had started the war to try and save the life of a second born he had fallen in love with. Convinced by the lieing ***** of a gawdess lolth herself he had layed waste to legions of his own kin, and fought his father/brother Correllian himself to a standstill. And it was only when convinced of the truth of her lies that he abandoned the war and became the first to be marked as Daoi Sith, the first dark elf, the last of the first born. whose soul name given by the forces of the cosmos had been Zhallak meaning Born for war in the ancient tongue, had hinted at his own eventual dark destiny.

    Lolth is connected to all drow, no matter the world they live on, their origins are all the same, though good cultures do exist on worlds where spell jamming sects started less female/lolth centric societys. Not unlike Eberron.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrinityTurtle View Post
    I'm sorry, you must have had a really dull DM. Ours had us all over the realms, and Lolth and the other Underdark gods were the ones we had the least contact with, but we did cross wits with plans by just about all of the evil deities trying to save people. But we had a lot of humans in our group that had vision issues in the dark and wanted to stay on the surface world. L OL I think in the three years I was in one ongoing campaign from 1 to godhood Eminster was a thing lierally three times. And one of those times was only because we were near Shadowdale and needed information, and thought the "sage of shadowdale" probably at least pretended to be a sage and offered information services too.

    I think the weirdest was the knucklebone trout incident, darn dm had way too much funfishing and decided we were going to fish too like it or not. LOL
    There has never been a gm that could make me like the realms the whole back,story and all bores me to,tears. That said I would have preferred Greyhawk, Blackmoor or Mystra to Eberron even though I like it. If the game had started in the better they were forgotten realms people here would have never seen me here!

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

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