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  1. #1
    Community Member Cyiwin's Avatar
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    Default Why the dungeon scaling hate?

    I created this thread because I find the controversy here very interesting and I see another thread about changing the bravery bonus architecture getting hijacked.

    I really enjoy soloing quests. I think overall dungeon scaling is a step in the right direction. It allows people who don't have the best gear and quest knowledge to solo if they choose to. I find most quests still are challenging enough for me on elite past level 9 or so. I don't think it makes the quests too easy overall but then I'm probably not one of the most talented players. I will say I had a lot of fun soloing before DS existed, but then I wasn't soloing elite like I am now.

    Anyway I hope I get some opinions here on how DS has hurt or even helped you.

    For some DS facts http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...hlight=scaling

  2. #2
    Community Member DarkAlchemist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyiwin View Post
    I created this thread because I find the controversy here very interesting and I see another thread about changing the bravery bonus architecture getting hijacked.

    I really enjoy soloing quests. ...
    That is a viable playstyle but will be hard for you to understand the way we MMO types (the non soloers) feel about any mechanic that lessens the grouping pool.

    As I said in the other thread we need only look at some of the quests (like Weapons Shipment or In The Flesh) to realize that solo-ing it is easier than trying to group them. Bad mechanic when you can get in and get out faster doing a quest solo than grouping up. Of course I am talking as a non soloer.
    Last edited by DarkAlchemist; 04-03-2012 at 05:25 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyiwin View Post
    I created this thread because I find the controversy here very interesting and I see another thread about changing the bravery bonus architecture getting hijacked.

    I really enjoy soloing quests. I think overall dungeon scaling is a step in the right direction. It allows people who don't have the best gear and quest knowledge to solo if they choose to. I find most quests still are challenging enough for me on elite past level 9 or so. I don't think it makes the quests too easy overall but then I'm probably not one of the most talented players. I will say I had a lot of fun soloing before DS existed, but then I wasn't soloing elite like I am now.

    Anyway I hope I get some opinions here on how DS has hurt or even helped you.

    For some DS facts http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...hlight=scaling
    It also allows experienced and geared people solo the heck out of almost everything, leaving you with sour face inside an empty lfm(if you for some reason would want to group up for stuff). So those weaker freshly started players will be left alone in their own misery! (admit it, sounds poetic!)

    Thats what i call controversial, a feature designed to help may actually make things harder.

  4. #4
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    But i doubt it will ever get removed, too many would be against. Due to pragmatic reasons, there are many quests that are easier to do solo rather than being forced to put up with people.

    Scaling vs people, simple deal.

  5. #5
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Dungeon scaling discourages PUGS.

    It allows a single player to solo things that, without dungeon scaling, wouldn't be possible.

    Let's look at it from the perspective of a new guy:
    Hey, this is awesome! I can do this quest my way and take as long as I need.
    *ding* Hmmm. Maybe I should join that group!

    From an experienced guy:
    Hey, I can put up a PUG for this run, but it would be so much faster and easier if I just ran it alone. No waiting, and the mobs are only a pathetic fraction of what they would be in a group.

    From a jaded vet:
    Sweet! Group runs when my buddies are on, otherwise I'll just zerg everything and get max xp.

    PUG? What?? Why? That makes the quest harder, eats up more of my time, and then I inevitably face that -10% from the noobs. No thanks!


    This is the reality that dungeon scaling (and the -10% xp hit from someone dying) brings to the PUG scene.
    <-Curelite Bottling Company->

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  6. #6
    Community Member Phidius's Avatar
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    My biggest gripe with Dungeon Scaling is that it complicates what should be a very simple process of determining what level of challenge you are in the mood for. Accepting an unknown application to your LFM shouldn't require a background check, but that extra body in the quest may just push you over the edge.

    In the old days, someone entering the quest had absolutely no impact on the strength of the mobs you were fighting... if you were able to handle it before, adding another party member could only make it better. Soloing was something for the anti-social... grouping always made it easier.

    Also, Dungeon Scaling was introduced before we had the Casual setting. It simply isn't needed anymore.
    "I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities" - Vaarsuvius, OoTS #674

  7. #7
    Community Member Cyiwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hecate355 View Post
    It also allows experienced and geared people solo the heck out of almost everything, leaving you with sour face inside an empty lfm(if you for some reason would want to group up for stuff). So those weaker freshly started players will be left alone in their own misery! (admit it, sounds poetic!)

    Thats what i call controversial, a feature designed to help may actually make things harder.

    Soloing is easier today than when I first started, I think even under-geared newer players are able to solo the earlier to mid quests on normal. As for the players that don't want to solo, I hear your pain, one of the main reasons I solo is because I can't stand the waiting time for parties to form. But I don't think removing a mechanic that people are enjoying and pressuring them to group is the answer.

  8. #8
    Community Member DarkAlchemist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyiwin View Post
    Soloing is easier today than when I first started, I think even under-geared newer players are able to solo the earlier to mid quests on normal. As for the players that don't want to solo, I hear your pain, one of the main reasons I solo is because I can't stand the waiting time for parties to form. But I don't think removing a mechanic that people are enjoying and pressuring them to group is the answer.
    They did exactly that over in LOTRO. You want the extra xp, or extra coins? You want what the dailies (skirms) used to give? Then you will join the random pug dealio. This may come to DDO rsn.

  9. #9
    Community Member Belduroz's Avatar
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    I like the idea behind dungeon scaling, but in many cases it favors soloing or doing quests in small parties (i personally do most of my leveling with only one more person / trs with a static partner).

    Dungeon scaling while soloing is probably too easy, at least on hard and elite - while it is fine on normal for new people to get into the quest.

    With 2-3 people have the best overall situation in there, depending on their class combination. Neither hp or damage of enemies are through the roof or too low to be able to kill anyone and traps are SURVIVABLE (not ignoreable) even on elite in most quests unless you have very low hp and like no reflex save.

    With 4+ people is only fine on lower level regions in case of mob abilities (hp, damage) - during mid- and high-lvl instantkills are way more powerful than any damage most melees do. Also if you have someone in your party, who is not able to survive a trap, you are in need of a rogue. In general i experienced larger parties, unless they are mostly static, to take longer for quests, while having a harder time than only 2 dedicated people of the same parties, resulting more often in -10% xp due to someone dieing.

    So overall i would like to see dungeon scaling reduced a bit for large parties and increased for soloing on every aspect. In my opinion improvement to satisfy everyone would lead to the following: limiting trap damage and spell damage of some mobs (most are ok, but few are way too high with high dungeon scaling) as it is now for 2-3 people, while melee damage is just fine. Also reducing hp-scaling for large parties on mid- and high-lvl content slightly to make direct damage more viable.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Phidius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyiwin View Post
    ... As for the players that don't want to solo, I hear your pain, one of the main reasons I solo is because I can't stand the waiting time for parties to form...
    When I get into the grouping mood, I get pretty good results from the following:

    "First 5 to click, bring what you need, don't release, in progress."

    Once you finish, update the quest in the LFM and the folks who were watching the Social Panel but didn't want to get a late entry penalty will request to join. While the first quest tends to be short-manned, subsequent runs will be full.

    Yes, you'll probably lose the 10% bonus for no one dying, but at least you won't lose the 10% bonus for rentry
    "I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities" - Vaarsuvius, OoTS #674

  11. #11
    Community Member fco-karatekid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAlchemist View Post
    That is a viable playstyle but will be hard for you to understand the way we MMO types (the non soloers) feel about any mechanic that lessens the grouping pool.

    As I said in the other thread we need only look at some of the quests (like Weapons Shipment or In The Flesh) to realize that solo-ing it is easier than trying to group them. Bad mechanic when you can get in and get out faster doing a quest solo than grouping up. Of course I am talking as a non soloer.
    As a soloer, i somewhat (and counter-produtivelyto my interests) actually agree with you for many (not all) quests.

    In the flesh is a prime example of why I solo that one on norm and group only for hard or elite (especially the changes to that quest forced hard into that category - prior to the change I'd solo normal and hard).

    I will agree, though, that something's just not quite right with scaling. There are low-mid-level quests are are harder on Hard skill level than on Elite when solo'ed. Not that it MUST be changed, but it does indicate the balance is off somewhere.

    The last three or four adventure packs have been overall pretty well-balanced, in my experience... a few bugs like the overly-easy Normal Skill fire bomber after the initial release of the cannith pack notwithstanding... but he got fixed, unfortunately.

  12. #12
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danotmano1998 View Post
    Dungeon scaling discourages PUGS.

    It allows a single player to solo things that, without dungeon scaling, wouldn't be possible.
    It's important that we settle this straight away: the second quoted statement is simply not the case. Raids have no dungeon scaling, yet certain raids can be and have been soloed.

    It's also important to point out that dungeon scaling is not a "solo vs. group" matter, as dungeon scaling also benefits duoers and so on up the scale.

    Finally, you mention wasting time, but I feel you have not fully investigated that point. If I am only going to be on for 40 minutes, waiting 20 minutes for a group to fill (for whichever obscure quest) is crippling. The scenario snowballs from there: if I can't get done what I want in 40 minutes, I won't bother logging on. How many times have you heard someone from one of those other games that they couldn't be bothered devoting no less than 2 hour blocks (or whatever) to a game, so they quit? We should not encourage Turbine to implement systems that in turn encourage people to quit.

  13. #13
    Community Member munificence's Avatar
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    If you want to understand why dungeon scaling sucks, try doing epic level cannith challenges solo, with 2 or 3 people, then with a full group. The scaling is absurd in there, to the point where it makes sense to only take 2-3 really good players versus a full PUG with 5 unknown players. This, ultimately, discourages grouping which, in a multiplayer game, is not a good thing to do.

  14. #14
    Community Member AtomicMew's Avatar
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    The problem with dungeon scaling is that it is literally easier for well geared vets to solo quests rather than go in a full party. Two (or three, depending) solid players IS better than solo despite scaling, but the chances for finding another solid player from the LFM isn't exactly high. If you put up a LFM, you basically need to either accept people who are dead weight, make the quest take longer due to dungeon scale and lose you XP through death penalty OR be a jerk and decline a lot of people.

  15. #15
    Community Member DarkAlchemist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munificence View Post
    If you want to understand why dungeon scaling sucks, try doing epic level cannith challenges solo, with 2 or 3 people, then with a full group. The scaling is absurd in there, to the point where it makes sense to only take 2-3 really good players versus a full PUG with 5 unknown players. This, ultimately, discourages grouping which, in a multiplayer game, is not a good thing to do.
    I know a person who excels in those and he flat out refuses to take more than 1 other. He allowed me in with his duo group and the guy is very good but he was complaining about the dungeon scaling and when his friend would leave he would take me and honestly it was night and day. I have done them with 6 in total and, again, night and day difference. From mob's health to how many come to how hard they hit it favors the solo the most or a duo tops.

  16. #16
    Community Member Kinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munificence View Post
    If you want to understand why dungeon scaling sucks, try doing epic level cannith challenges solo, with 2 or 3 people, then with a full group. The scaling is absurd in there, to the point where it makes sense to only take 2-3 really good players versus a full PUG with 5 unknown players. This, ultimately, discourages grouping which, in a multiplayer game, is not a good thing to do.
    Cannith crafting is broken scaling, though. In the last huge thread about it, a developer stated that it wasn't WAI. Baby and the bathwater, and all that.

  17. #17
    Community Member DarkAlchemist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    Cannith crafting is broken scaling, though. In the last huge thread about it, a developer stated that it wasn't WAI. Baby and the bathwater, and all that.
    I bet he didn't mean the scaling per se' but that stupid pre u9 epic ward. Without seeing the dev quote (and thread) I can't really say but there is not a single person on this forum who would say with a non trollish face that DS doesn't have an impact on LFMs. In most games they encourage the group and by grouping it makes quests all the faster and simpler but that is not what DS does but instead is directly opposed to that. It encourages solo/duo play and discourages (regardless of the difficulty) grouping and the LFM bares that out.

  18. #18
    Community Member Belduroz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munificence View Post
    If you want to understand why dungeon scaling sucks, try doing epic level cannith challenges solo, with 2 or 3 people, then with a full group. The scaling is absurd in there, to the point where it makes sense to only take 2-3 really good players versus a full PUG with 5 unknown players. This, ultimately, discourages grouping which, in a multiplayer game, is not a good thing to do.
    Oh yes, dungeon scaling in challenges is really absurd. Dr rushmore is a joke soloing, even on epic levels, while having more people in there makes you having at least a second healer to keep the other healer alive due to the high amounts and duration of stuns combined with high damage. The dungeon scaling on kobold island massively limits the party to only get people with one of the powerful and self-sufficient classes, best with outstanding gear as well, to be able to split up in 6 'groups' and increase the output per challenge. Only Lava caves and extraplanar palace are alright.
    Sarlona
    Belduros // Hazord // Cany // Tyor // Deyra // Yannec // Rawnah // Teyrah // Jaheyra

  19. #19
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    It's important that we settle this straight away: the second quoted statement is simply not the case. Raids have no dungeon scaling, yet certain raids can be and have been soloed..
    Yes, but you're nitpicking here. Raids aren't in question since they have no dungeon scaling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    It's also important to point out that dungeon scaling is not a "solo vs. group" matter, as dungeon scaling also benefits duoers and so on up the scale.
    .
    To a point, yes. I think I remember reading the break even point is somewhere around 4. Less than that, and you've got an easier time in there. More than that, and things get harder.
    I was illustrating the extreme example in this case. You are 100% correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    Finally, you mention wasting time, but I feel you have not fully investigated that point. If I am only going to be on for 40 minutes, waiting 20 minutes for a group to fill (for whichever obscure quest) is crippling.
    Agreed. Time is a substantial consideration when it comes to any hobby, I should think.
    Dungeon scaling doesn't change the time consideration directly. It does indirectly affect the time spent in a quest, as the harder the quest is, the longer it typically takes to complete. (As a general rule)


    But the basic premise still remains.
    Dungeon scaling is actually counter-productive to filling groups, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinerd View Post
    We should not encourage Turbine to implement systems that in turn encourage people to quit
    And who's encouraging that?


    Funny thing is, I am in FAVOR of dungeon scaling, because when time is limited or people are not available, I can just jump in and get things done alone.
    Yet, even though it benefits certain players, it can't be denied that more people = more scaling which in turn = less reason to have other people along.
    Last edited by danotmano1998; 04-03-2012 at 06:45 PM.
    <-Curelite Bottling Company->

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilldude
    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by danotmano1998 View Post
    Dungeon scaling discourages PUGS.

    It allows a single player to solo things that, without dungeon scaling, wouldn't be possible.

    Let's look at it from the perspective of a new guy:
    Hey, this is awesome! I can do this quest my way and take as long as I need.
    *ding* Hmmm. Maybe I should join that group!

    From an experienced guy:
    Hey, I can put up a PUG for this run, but it would be so much faster and easier if I just ran it alone. No waiting, and the mobs are only a pathetic fraction of what they would be in a group.

    From a jaded vet:
    Sweet! Group runs when my buddies are on, otherwise I'll just zerg everything and get max xp.

    PUG? What?? Why? That makes the quest harder, eats up more of my time, and then I inevitably face that -10% from the noobs. No thanks!


    This is the reality that dungeon scaling (and the -10% xp hit from someone dying) brings to the PUG scene.

    I think you are mistakenly focused on a single idea instead of the whole picture.

    You seem to be of the mind that without dungeon scaling everyone who solos with it would instead be grouping and filling up the pug scene.

    The truth is, many people would simply choose to not play the game if they couldn't solo. And that would mean less $ for game development.

    Taking away the ability to solo does not magically turn all those solo players into groupers. It's very shortsighted to act like that's the case.

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