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  1. #101
    Community Member Dagolar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    This is double scaling, resulting in smaller parties having an easier time. Not good.
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    This is double scaling, resulting in larger parties having a rather rough time. Not good.
    Fixed.

    Given the nature of challenges, easy soloing isn't that big of a deal. But for having a fun time, for completing objectives, for gaining ingredients.. how the challenges affect larger groups needs to be changed, especially in Rushmore's and Kobold Island challenges.

    Since Challenges were introduced, the ideal group has been three people. For the purposes of having enough people to cover all objectives, this is great, and draws away from simply solo farming. But being 'forced' to run in groups of three because anything more takes 'a moderate challenge' and makes it into 'an extreme challenge' is rather.. awkward.

    Thanks for detailing the basis of the problem.
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    Fly? That would break every quest in the game. You would see folks falling from the sky in Korthos and dying. It would be a rain of newbs.
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    Yeah. It's not "we nuked the city from orbit", it's "the city experienced a brief population drop". Check.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackSteel View Post
    Rushmore is easy with most builds/classes with the right pathing.
    My problem isn't with running out of time. My problem is getting my butt kicked. The spots I most frequently run into trouble are:
    • Too many air elementals in the shrine room.
    • Not noticing that two or more casters are nuking me while I'm fighting a swarm of melees.
    • When my healer hireling charges the boss and dies, making the rest of the fight harder.
    • When my hireling does something else dumb, instead of healing himself or me.

    Usually I'm okay if only one of the above happens at a time.

    I usually go for the rogue first, then the succubus, then the meatshield. I usually beat the rogue and succubus if I get to them. I have yet to beat the meatshield when playing at-level or on Epic. I have trouble hitting him when both earth elementals are up. Lately I've been focusing on taking out an earth elemental first, but that increases the risk of my hireling getting killed by the boss, and may eventually be replaced by an air elemental.

    I'm wondering if ditching the hireling would drop the number and strength of mobs considerably. I can scroll-heal, so the hireling isn't a necessity. I also wouldn't die from "I don't need to to pause to scroll-heal, because my hireling will heal me any moment now".
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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    My biggest beef though is that scaling means you are penalized (with slower and less certain completions) for showing new players the ropes in a quest.
    Strange way to put it, as if the game had no scaling you would still be penalized for that, or for short manning, or for running with anyone who isn't at least as fast and certain to complete as you are. Quests scale down, not up. So removing scaling wont make anything any easier than it is now, just a lot of stuff will become harder.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Haven't read the entire thread so don't know if this has been said yet, but the scaling in challenges is absurd because there is both dungeon scaling and generator scaling occuring.

    Dungeon scaling: look at party composition and adjust monster HP, damage etc.
    Generator scaling: look at party size and spawn less or more monsters accordingly.

    This is double scaling, resulting in smaller parties having an easier time. Not good.
    Thanks for posting this.

    This was actually known to people on Lammia when the challenges were first put in but no one on live would believe me when I tried to tell them that the challenges had double scaling. Now I can point to a Dev post and to prove to people that no, I'm not crazy or stupid as some of them seemed to decide.

    The generator scaling in placing like the mansion is actually very handy as more mobs = better chance at crests that you need for the doors. The only problem is that the increased time it takes to kill them thanks to dungeon scaling makes it really iffy that you will make it to a door to use the crests and that you need to have everyone try the door to make sure a random people does not have the last crest you need. I've had several runs cut short, either solo or in a group, because of missing crests. Either I had killed everything solo up to that point and never seen that crest or the group was scattered and the person with the crest was 30sec-1min away.

    On the mansion it would also help a lot if the clock did not start until the first door is opened. Currently it starts as soon as the first person loads in and this leads to the first minute or so being spent buffing and summoning pets/hires and that minute is time you can't really afford to waste in there.

  5. #105
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    I dont mind all this scaling IF there was some increased reward for doing challenges with more people!

    Right now there isnt any insentive to full man a challenge short of the extractor ones.

    • Kobold mining quests (extraplanar mines and lava caves) need 3 minimum (1 guarding, 1 placing torches, and 1 scouting/gathering) although you can make do with 2.
    • Rushmore requires only 1 but 2 increases the chances of the right crests dropping.
    • Kobold Island can be done with 2 but 6 does actually reward better results.


    of the 3 quest types none really improve rewards for more people...

    • Kobold Mining, as long as the torch bearer is fast, will reward the same for 1 2 or 6 people
    • Rushmore has little growth beyond the first named which can be achieved solo. If you could finish this quest prematurely I'm sure many would simply release out once the Assassin was dead. the lure of more supply chests is not enough to keep people in the quest for anything other than Stars.
    • Kobold Islands is base on extractor production and if you can get 3 large up ASAP your in for a big reward. however with the scaling its near on impossible.


    IMHO the idea of challenges is sound, however the way they have been implemented is all wrong. Crystal Cove was different because it was on an event timer - people loved it because they could get what they wanted if they put in enough time in the short window the event was there.

    I think Turbine missed the point of the game when they made challenges - DDO quests are all about the completion - people will not run a quest if they wont complete it. Some wont even bother with certain optionals.
    With challenges they are set up to offer completion around about 30-50% through the quest because the quests are on a timer. After you hit completion, your either struggling to optionals or your waiting for the clock to run out so you can do the next challenge. The scaling only moves the completion % closer to the end of the quest timer. At no point does any of this affect end rewards.

    Challenges are one of the main causes for lack of PUGs also:
    I run with 2-3 people constantly (our guild is 4 RL friends) and we rely on PUG members to fill our groups.
    When running challenges we never post groups, we go with what we have because more just hurts our progress.
    On regular quests filling a group with a PUG member helps us complete elite and EPIC quests more efficiently.
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  6. #106
    The Hatchery zwiebelring's Avatar
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    To be honest if this change made many people try DDO and play it for the longterm, then it is a very good idea. But then, if you read people complaining the game had become too easy and something was killing pugs then I'd blame dungeon scaling for it.

    But then, multi TR's profit heavily from it as well as casual players. I don't think removing may an idea but maybe give more content that needs a full team.
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  7. #107
    Community Member Memek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtomicMew View Post
    You're not really understanding the problem. The problem isn't that newbies want to play on normal, the problem is that newbies want to play on elite but they CAN'T.
    A new player probably cant contribute to a TR zerg BYOH split-up group, yes.
    But if the group moves together? A properly built and competently equipped new player character can certainly contribute.
    For example, when Elite streaking players can be up to level 10 to hit Stormcleave Elite - you dont need twink gear to contribute. Only thing that would keep the new player from contributing is if the other player run off and kill everything before he even sees the monsters.
    Another example, Madstone Crater you'd streak at level 16 (!) and of course a half-way decently built level 16 character can contribute.

    If the new player is clueless at level 10 or 16, if he doesnt have 100% Fort at level 16 or if he gimped his build too badly, the problem doesnt lie with Bravery Bonus or other players' LFMs or how most other players wish to play the game.

    Heck, we used to run Stormcleave Elite at level 5 and Madstone Elite at level 12 or so before they removed the XP bonus for running higher level quests. I really dont see why a new player wouldnt be able to contribute at levels 10/16 for those quests. Unless you just run off and slaughter everything before he can catch up but then he probably doesnt belong into and wouldnt have fun in your group anyways, so separating those playstyles is not a bad thing.

    And the new player can always make his own LFM, for whatever difficulty he likes.
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  8. #108
    Community Member Phemt81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Dungeon scaling: look at party composition and adjust monster HP, damage etc.
    Generator scaling: look at party size and spawn less or more monsters accordingly.

    This is double scaling, resulting in smaller parties having an easier time. Not good.
    Are you saying you do not agree in useing these two different forms of scaling?

    I would agree with you if the answer is yes...
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    We absolutely planned for Fighter to still have Haste Boost. It's absolutely a bug. Any similar issues that look "wrong" to any player should be bugged.
    Developers should fix this

  9. #109
    Community Member Arctigis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Net effect of people grouping with whom however? If Im a zerger and I feel I must group in order to get higher XP per minute, Im not reaching out to the PUG scene and picking up randoms. Im reaching out to the TR channels and guildy groups to roll with people I know will stand and deliver. This is why I dont believe it solves the problem. PUG quantity wont increase - guild groups and static TR groups will increase. What will also increase, are the complaints about how this game isnt solo friendly. We've seen this before.
    This. Assuming that people who solo now would LFM/PUG if scaling was removed is false.

  10. #110
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAlchemist View Post
    Yep, not good but this "oversight/bug" is in a lot of your quests and why this sort of stuff has helped to kill off the PUG scene. No pug scene no game for me since I rely upon PUGs for 99% of my gaming.

    Seriously, please help and fix the issues that you think is only happening in challenges but (and I own the pack so I know how bad it can get in them) is really happening in a good bit of your content. Why bother with pugs when you can solo easier and quicker? Don't you see that last part as a really big negative or no?
    The same type of scaling to the same degree doesnt happen on elite. How many PUGs are running normal nowdays?

  11. #111
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    Dungeon Scaling is at least operating by the principle of the reward being in proportion to the challenge, with the problem being that the reward is being held fixed and the challenge adjusted to match the party. A larger party should have to face more of a challenge for the same reward by that principle. The base XP rewards for the quests are already an attempt at varying the rewards, and we know those aren't equal to the challenge of completion either. The only objective measure of the challenge is how long it take you to complete. You could just go ahead and award XP per minute spent completing a quest, but a quest being challenging and the party just being bad is indistinguishable and people would complain that their awesomeness wasn't being properly rewarded. Imagine if the way to squeeze the most XP out of quests as a TR were to complete them as slowly as possible.

  12. #112
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Strange way to put it, as if the game had no scaling you would still be penalized for that, or for short manning, or for running with anyone who isn't at least as fast and certain to complete as you are. Quests scale down, not up. So removing scaling wont make anything any easier than it is now, just a lot of stuff will become harder.
    Your basic premise is incorrect.

    Without dungeon scaling adding or subtracting another person from the group would not make the quest harder or easier.

    It would only make the quest harder compared to the situation with dungeon scaling.

    That is an important distinction because it does not penalize you when running short man, but neither does it provide you bonuses.
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  13. #113
    Developer MadFloyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phemt81 View Post
    Are you saying you do not agree in useing these two different forms of scaling?

    I would agree with you if the answer is yes...
    At the same time and to the degree that we did in Challenges, no.

    Anything that makes it harder for full groups is a mistake.
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memek View Post
    The recent discussions about scaling are simply a reaction to the cries to remove Bravery Bonus because some forum posters want TR zergers to rather sniff the flowers with newbies on Normal instead of doing once and done Elite runs for levelling.

    So when people start whining for removal of BB because they cant find players to run Normal with, i point out that scaling has made Normal=Solo.
    I hope you don't mean the thread I started a few days ago, because I at no time called for a removal of the BB, just a change and I don't remember anyone asking for it to be removed either in their posts. In fact I don't remember ever seen a post/thread about removing the Bravery Bonus...

    I think you just read the title and ssumed that's what I was going for, which it isn't just to be clear.
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  15. #115
    Community Member DrawingGuy's Avatar
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    I personally never PUG now because of Dungeon Scaling. And personally I think that if one finds a quest harder with people to help, there is a problem. Right now the pros and cons of a party are thus:

    Pros:
    - Party members to fill roles that you cannot yourself (healing, traps, cc, dps)
    - Someone to talk to while you party

    Cons:
    - Having to take time to fill a party
    - More mobs
    - Mobs hit harder
    - Mobs have more HP
    - Quests usually take longer due to aforementioned scaling
    - Easier for an individual to die due to aforementioned scaling, thus costing you 10%

    With that many cons, that makes it where people pretty much ONLY party if they can't fill a role or want someone to chat with while questing. If you don't need someone to fill that role, soloing is easier period. Partying should make your quest EASIER, not soloing. That is the whole point of a party, correct? Someone by my side to kill that monster that would kick my arse otherwise... not the monster growing buffer and whistling for buddies if my friend comes to my aid.

    If they get rid of DS, I don't think a single person can argue the point that more PUGs would happen if parties instead made a quest easier/possible instead of the current opposite. To think... an MMO played with more than one person? To band together to handle that quest rather than that quest being bent over so you don't need that band?

    Though, of course, this would completely change how I play the game. To look at the PUG list for something other than Raids because all my characters lost their easy button and now need help to handle elite quests as they were designed? Or to actually post a PUG for a reason other than an altruistic desire to teach newbs a quest (or give a scenic tour in my bag) since I could already solo it on full scaling?

    Of course people here are going "I like the old way, if you go the new way I quit". But that happens with every single change proposal. You don't have time to party? Play casual or normal for something easier. Or build yourself up so you're strong enough to solo and play a quest on the difficulty it was meant to be. And if you quit... pray tell why I should cry over someone that would never have partied with me anyways if the current way is kept?

  16. #116
    Developer MadFloyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snarglefrump View Post
    I must be doing something wrong. For me Dr. Rushmore is by far the hardest group of challenges to solo.

    Out of curiosity, when you say "solo" is that solo-with-hireling or really solo? I've been bringing a healer hireling, but now I'm wondering if I should leave him behind. What class is your toon?
    Hirelings won't make a huge difference in dungeon scaling.
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  17. #117
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    Summons should cause TRIPLE scaling.. Just to teach people NOT to use them

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalfs_Ghost View Post
    I too despise dungeon scaling and am pleased to see so many others share my sentiment.
    And I share the belief that a game mechanic that makes it so running ANY content solo is easier than in a group, ESPECIALLY on hard and elite, is a broken frikkin mechanic. Simply ridiculous.
    If someone wants to go run quest X on elite by themselves they should have to run quest X on elite, not some watered down, every gimp gets a prize version, but the actual elite difficulty.
    At the very least the scaling mechanic needs some tweaking.
    Dungeon scaling mostly pertains to Normal difficulty. On Hard difficulty there is much less. On Elite there is a very small amount (if any).

    Apart from Challenges where more monsters spawn for larger parties, it should always be advantageous for a full party vs a smaller one - at least that is certainly the intent and I'm happy to look into it if the general consensus is that's it not working out that way.

    I know that when we originally designed it, it was based on a group size of 4. Anything less than that enjoyed scaling, anything above that was unaffected (meaning a group of 5 or 6 had the advantage). I'm not sure offhand if it was changed since.
    The kobold cannot be marked as junk because it cannot be sold. You can destroy it by dragging and dropping it outside your inventory.

  19. #119
    Community Member DeafeningWhisper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrawingGuy View Post
    I personally never PUG now because of Dungeon Scaling. And personally I think that if one finds a quest harder with people to help, there is a problem. Right now the pros and cons of a party are thus:

    Pros:
    - Party members to fill roles that you cannot yourself (healing, traps, cc, dps)
    - Someone to talk to while you party

    Cons:
    - Having to take time to fill a party
    - More mobs
    - Mobs hit harder
    - Mobs have more HP
    - Quests usually take longer due to aforementioned scaling
    - Easier for an individual to die due to aforementioned scaling, thus costing you 10%

    With that many cons, that makes it where people pretty much ONLY party if they can't fill a role or want someone to chat with while questing. If you don't need someone to fill that role, soloing is easier period. Partying should make your quest EASIER, not soloing. That is the whole point of a party, correct? Someone by my side to kill that monster that would kick my arse otherwise... not the monster growing buffer and whistling for buddies if my friend comes to my aid.

    If they get rid of DS, I don't think a single person can argue the point that more PUGs would happen if parties instead made a quest easier/possible instead of the current opposite. To think... an MMO played with more than one person? To band together to handle that quest rather than that quest being bent over so you don't need that band?

    Though, of course, this would completely change how I play the game. To look at the PUG list for something other than Raids because all my characters lost their easy button and now need help to handle elite quests as they were designed? Or to actually post a PUG for a reason other than an altruistic desire to teach newbs a quest (or give a scenic tour in my bag) since I could already solo it on full scaling?

    Of course people here are going "I like the old way, if you go the new way I quit". But that happens with every single change proposal. You don't have time to party? Play casual or normal for something easier. Or build yourself up so you're strong enough to solo and play a quest on the difficulty it was meant to be. And if you quit... pray tell why I should cry over someone that would never have partied with me anyways if the current way is kept?
    I don't have a problem with making sure people can solo content, but DS doesn't "allow" soloing it "encourages" it which is wrong. I think just make all quest run on the current solo scaling so people can still solo and make a full party an easier run then a solo would be great, not to mention logical.
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  20. #120
    Founder Raiderone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Dungeon scaling mostly pertains to Normal difficulty. On Hard difficulty there is much less. On Elite there is a very small amount (if any).

    Apart from Challenges where more monsters spawn for larger parties, it should always be advantageous for a full party vs a smaller one - at least that is certainly the intent and I'm happy to look into it if the general consensus is that's it not working out that way.

    I know that when we originally designed it, it was based on a group size of 4. Anything less than that enjoyed scaling, anything above that was unaffected (meaning a group of 5 or 6 had the advantage). I'm not sure offhand if it was changed since.
    I believe the scaling gives us a false sense of the strength of our toons.

    Then when running elite or hard with a full group, it's like how come i'm not doing as well..

    I'd say if you are running elite, should be no difference from solo to full group...

    Scale Normal and Hard...but not elite.

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