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  1. #81
    Community Member kraaal's Avatar
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    Default Shoot yourself in the foot much

    Communication is what this community wants and your actions are just going to push Devs away , why would they respond when you have the mobs baying for their blood ?
    Its a relationship both the customer and the dev team need nourish and protect not turn into a slinging match, we all want the same thing.
    Perspective : ITS A GAME , they are not sending people to the moon , no one dies if a piece of code has a bug. Believe me ive worked where the software is a 'validated' ( means different things depending on sector but in the medical one its serious bananas) environment, you cant fart without someone triple checking your work and 2 years of paperwork. It leads to very slow progression and innovation.
    Sure they could do better but you dont have to deliver that message with hate!
    Last edited by kraaal; 04-05-2012 at 07:03 AM.
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  2. #82
    Community Member Ziindarax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    This hit the nail on the head. +1 to you sir. Here's why I think so. (And please, these are solely my opinion, I am not trying to persuade anyone to believe me, but rather explain them in a rational matter since many people who criticized me <and pumped me full of neg rep when they didn't agree with me> earlier in this thread were at times off base). For those who know me, and have played with me, I tend to be very quiet but I am also very fair. Where the conflict appears in these thread is that I am a very frugal consumer, have ran and now own my very own business that is successful with 289 employee's. Now that isn't a boast, but rather a bona-fide so people know I am not just pulling things out of my ass.

    There are two main groups that play DDO and are on the forums (casual players on on the forums are another). The first I fit into. I started playing DDO back in the summer of 2007. The game was great at the time and I had such a blast, I've obviously kept playing and have developed a loyalty to the game to some extent and loyalty to the many friends I have met. But ever since my guilds airship disappeared a while ago and we heard NOTHING for months, (no acknowledgement even) I have started to doubt whether DDO was really a "Players" game (as advertised at time) or just like every other game out there. TO ME, the last 2-4 updates have given me the idea that DDO has become too commercialized and the race to put out content has severely had and impact on the quality of the game (but only in the sense of bugs and a few other things.) The MOtU was 'Watergate' for the DDO community up to this point in my opinion. And after the repeated issues (some small, some rather increasingly large) there is a pattern developing over the last year plus. I personally do not forget this until I see the pattern reverse to where there are only small bugs that miss everyone testing, Lama and QA. This has not happened.

    Then there are the diehard fans who have played DDO their entire lives. I will never use the term fanboi's (as that incorrectly lumps other people into this group and it's just a plain stupid word) but these people tend to get all up in arms about minor things, bugs, content changes, lore problems and blow up the forums when Updates go wrong or things break. The as soon as the issue is fixed, they act like it was all good and nothing was, or has been ever wrong with this game. They believe that Developers can do no wrong (a certain percentage, certainly not all of them), and that it's the members of the forums which are the problem. Which is inherently incorrect in the business world. And especially here since the "unhappy base" is fairly prevalent.

    Most companies that continually deliver "sub par" products tend to not do very well. And when I say sub par, I mean riddled with bugs, broken items and developers who don't know why these things are happening. (And yes, I had been a developer for many, many years until starting my own company.) I realize how hard it is, how frustrating it can be. DDO is an exception. They have such a entrenched fan base on the forums and in-game, they have been able to get away with Update releases which would not be considered a finished and polished project in other development/production companies. (For Example: Diablo 3 Beta is leaps and bounds more polished during it's Beta that DDO is a finished product. And please don't tell me that's because it took years, yes it did, but they are releasing it when they feel it's PERFECT +/-). And no I am not a Diablo diehard, I may never purchase the game.

    With all that said, I would never allow an employee of mine to make a post that represents the company in the tone that Maj did preedit. (Sorry Maj, you started doing such a great job and it's obvious the stress of the new Expansion is starting to creep into you). I encourage my employees to post but I frequently remind them that no matter what post they make, they represent everyone and the company they work for.

    If we constantly and continually praise them on sub par work, that is what we will continually get. But if we constructively criticize them and push them to make a better product, everyone wins. If your a person saying that everyone at Turbine is doing a great job and to keep it up, we will inevitably keep getting the same quality updates/Expansion we have been getting. And the huge string of "issues/bugs" over the last number of updates is just about the most proof that statement needs. And if Turbine gets irritated because of the amount of constructive criticism, MMO development and production is a VERY stressful job, and for a lack of a better analogy "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen". But it's our jobs as consumers to PUSH them to make a better product.

    Please remember that this is my sole opinion and doesn't represent anyone else's viewpoint. Let my rep plummet because I know I am a very small minority.
    To be fair, I will be no "yes-man" when the MOTU beta comes out; I will be aggressively looking for bugs and exploits to report (with strong emphasis to fix them ALL before they hit live), and I will hold nothing back. Maj's response might have been unprofessional given the stress he is currently facing, but the thread as a whole was less than tactfully written. Rather than presenting the problem in a mature, rational manner, it was instead written in a hostile, accusatory tone. It was for that reason so many people (myself included) went to Maj's defense.

    Do I want Turbine to contiguously produce sub-par content by heaping praises where they are not warranted? No, but neither would I accuse Turbine of actively trying to screw over its player-base (and frankly, if people feel that strongly that Turbine isn't being legit, and they cannot/will not word their posts in a manner that is constructive, the best thing for them to do is to LEAVE). Note: I am not accusing you (drwaz99) of being accusatory and rude, but there have been others in the community who were. There are businesses out there that are doing FAR worse than what Turbine's doing (E.G. Wall Street's glorified extortion ring ("speculating") that causes things like gas prices to inflate well beyond the principles of Supply/Demand, which they do because they know that fuel is practically essential, and because it's currently legal).
    Last edited by Ziindarax; 04-05-2012 at 07:35 AM.
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziindarax View Post
    To be fair, I will be no "yes-man" when the MOTU beta comes out; I will be aggressively looking for bugs and exploits to report (with strong emphasis to fix them ALL before they hit live), and I will hold nothing back. Maj's response might have been unprofessional given the stress he is currently facing, but the thread as a whole was less than tactfully written. Rather than presenting the problem in a mature, rational manner, it was instead written in a hostile, accusatory tone. It was for that reason so many people (myself included) went to Maj's defense.

    Do I want Turbine to contiguously produce sub-par content by heaping praises where they are not warranted? No, but neither would I accuse Turbine of actively trying to screw over its player-base (and frankly, if people feel that strongly that Turbine isn't being legit, and they cannot/will not word their posts in a manner that is constructive, the best thing for them to do is to LEAVE). Note: I am not accusing you (drwaz99) of being accusatory and rude, but there have been others in the community who were. There are businesses out there that are doing FAR worse than what Turbine's doing (E.G. Wall Street's glorified extortion ring ("speculating") that causes things like gas prices to inflate well beyond the principles of Supply/Demand, which they do because they know that fuel is practically essential, and because it's currently legal).
    No worries, I didn't think you were singling me out, you said thread, so that's how I took it. I certainly DO NOT think that Turbine is purposefully actively trying to screw over the player base with sub-par releases. I honestly think that as individual people they try, but due to constraints unseen by us 'forum folk' they are being put into situations that are between a rock and a hard place.

    And lets be honest. We are to blame too. When we chant we want more content, more often, and we do it all the time. the end result is rushed updates so they can appease us.

    I certainly can understand why people came to Maj defense. It's human nature. But if you look at the facts, they came out swinging and saying we were going to get much, much more communication, and we did have a ton then. But what happened to Maj's Friday Updates? We haven't seen a "Let's Talk" thread in a LONG time and the DEV Tracker is relatively quite. I would think with the games largest ever update less than 90 days away, they would be doing everything to get people excited. But there is no info aside from the pre-purchase out there and some generic screenshots on other site. Kinda weak for me.

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    I certainly DO NOT think that Turbine is purposefully actively trying to screw over the player base with sub-par releases. I honestly think that as individual people they try, but due to constraints unseen by us 'forum folk' they are being put into situations that are between a rock and a hard place.
    From the recent spate of reoccurring and item specific bugs, I'd say that most are derived from process rather than individual mistakes. The Dev and QA teams have probably been undergoing a significant upheaval over the past year or so. Their code/build/qa/release methodology has been in flux with them. Not to mention the new WB overlords who have to pee on everything to make it smell pretty. Frankly, I'm surprised there haven't been more issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    And lets be honest. We are to blame too. When we chant we want more content, more often, and we do it all the time. the end result is rushed updates so they can appease us.
    Oh, don't give us too much credit. Avid or even infrequent forum posters represent a small, if very vocal, minority of the user base. What gets fixed and what gets tabled has relatively little to do with our desires. Turbine is a business after all is said and done. Their priorities are driven more by cost/benefit analysis than the shrieking hoards which reside within these virtual walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    I certainly can understand why people came to Maj defense. It's human nature. But if you look at the facts, they came out swinging and saying we were going to get much, much more communication, and we did have a ton then. But what happened to Maj's Friday Updates? We haven't seen a "Let's Talk" thread in a LONG time and the DEV Tracker is relatively quite. I would think with the games largest ever update less than 90 days away, they would be doing everything to get people excited. But there is no info aside from the pre-purchase out there and some generic screenshots on other site. Kinda weak for me.
    Having been where the Dev and QA departments are now, I can tell you that they are all heads down and working OT like crazy. Taking the time to let us know how things are progressing is a luxury - One they likely can't afford, or more likely have been told not to afford. Marketroids get their panties in a wad when developers start telling customers what's really going on.

    Personally, I'm going to sit tight and ride out these growing pains. I can still enjoy the game even with the myriad of annoying yet hardly earth shattering bugs. When we all reach the other side of this "crisis" together, everyone will benefit.

    Best of luck to everyone involved.

  5. #85
    Developer MadFloyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toaf View Post
    it wouls be nice to know if you will make it right. fix it, not screw us out of our nice account bags. something like

    "don't worry, will will be able to revert them back to bound to account" that might go along way.. or something like


    " dont worry VIPS will now get shared inventory space. no more running to the bank for stuff like bags" <---dreaming i know but with the pets they have now im sure it CAN be done
    Just got confirmation that bags will revert back to bound to account in the next patch.
    The kobold cannot be marked as junk because it cannot be sold. You can destroy it by dragging and dropping it outside your inventory.

  6. #86
    Founder Lifespawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Just got confirmation that bags will revert back to bound to account in the next patch.
    yay
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Fernando has yet to even suggest a nerf of anything.
    Oh and by the way (referring to your sig), we aren't nerfing the Torc.

  7. #87
    Community Member sacredguyver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Just got confirmation that bags will revert back to bound to account in the next patch.
    Cool. That's great to hear.

    While you're at it, think someone could slip a Docent version of the Epic Cavalry Plate into the next patch before Crystal Cove returns?
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  8. #88
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Just got confirmation that bags will revert back to bound to account in the next patch.
    Thank you, this was the only concern me and many others had about the whole thing.

    I assume that by "bound to account" you mean, BTA when something BTA is inside, and otherwise unbound. IE, their original status, and not permanently BTC.

    So, presuming the above is what's meant, I thank you for getting a definite response out. Cheers.

  9. #89
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Just got confirmation that bags will revert back to bound to account in the next patch.
    Neat, but many bags were unbound before this patch are those also going to convert back to their original status?
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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Just got confirmation that bags will revert back to bound to account in the next patch.
    The appropriate response was:



    Madfloyd: You ain't got no problem, Toaf. I'm on the bagbug. Go back in there and chill them others out and wait for Lolth, who should be coming directly.

  11. #91
    Founder THAC0's Avatar
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    Thx. You and Maj. ... Keep posting the way you have....rather have the human interaction than the read by a dev stamp. :-)

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Just got confirmation that bags will revert back to bound to account in the next patch.
    How about the bags that weren't originally bound tat all that became BTC when this happened? I have 4.

  13. #93
    Developer MadFloyd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drwaz99 View Post
    How about the bags that weren't originally bound tat all that became BTC when this happened? I have 4.
    My understanding (from the engineer who fixed the bug) is that all affected bags should go back to their proper state (as their bound status is calculated upon login).

    Disclaimer: QA needs to test and confirm this.

    (maybe we can get Maj to come on post "Confirmed by a dev" )
    The kobold cannot be marked as junk because it cannot be sold. You can destroy it by dragging and dropping it outside your inventory.

  14. #94
    The Hatchery danotmano1998's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    My understanding (from the engineer who fixed the bug) is that all affected bags should go back to their proper state (as their bound status is calculated upon login).

    Disclaimer: QA needs to test and confirm this.

    (maybe we can get Maj to come on post "Confirmed by a dev" )
    Thanks for the update!
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    Dude, did you see they way that guy just pressed button 1? It was amazing! A display of skill unseen since the 1984 World Games where in the men's room, between events, a man washed his hands with such unbridled majesty that people were claiming the faucet he used was OP.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    My understanding (from the engineer who fixed the bug) is that all affected bags should go back to their proper state (as their bound status is calculated upon login).

    Disclaimer: QA needs to test and confirm this.

    (maybe we can get Maj to come on post "Confirmed by a dev" )
    Thanks.

    *cross fingers* but this is still weeks and weeks away if Maj's estimate about patch 2 was correct.

    I have an interesting problem..I just removed a couple of items to mail to another toon so he can craft. But the LDS and LSS were both BTC now too.(and every ing I took out afterwards was too, so I stopped) That makes me sad. I submitted a bug report, but black screened. and a GM just shut me out. Hopefully you can get back to read this.

  16. #96

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    My understanding (from the engineer who fixed the bug) is that all affected bags should go back to their proper state (as their bound status is calculated upon login).

    Disclaimer: QA needs to test and confirm this.

    (maybe we can get Maj to come on post "Confirmed by a dev" )
    I've got $10 that all of the store bought bags that were bought during the brief window when they were BtA will become BtC, since that is their "proper status" now.

    The proper solution to -that- problem is to make all store bags BtA. Hint. Hint.
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  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    ...snip...

    (maybe we can get Maj to come on post "Confirmed by a dev" )
    Pouring salt on wounds ehh lol. BadFloyd is more like it..

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  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    My understanding (from the engineer who fixed the bug) is that all affected bags should go back to their proper state (as their bound status is calculated upon login).

    Disclaimer: QA needs to test and confirm this.

    (maybe we can get Maj to come on post "Confirmed by a dev" )
    I hope he comes and post one of his honest and great replies. I really hope the few complaining replies didn't win over him. Either way, thank you for the bags fix.

  19. #99
    Community Member Rumbaar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajMalphunktion View Post
    Guess my forum good will has run out. I try to be honest, but I'll stick with 'read by a dev' for now on.
    Maybe get those tasked with community relations to deal with the community. The lack of response from them was noticeable!
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  20. #100
    Hero DanteEnFuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumbaar View Post
    Maybe get those tasked with community relations to deal with the community. The lack of response from them was noticeable!
    I must have the VIP Dev Posts access... ;-). Not sure I agree with you, but "dealing with the community" is pretty subjective.
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