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  1. #21
    Community Member guardianx2009's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    So, for 1 turn + 1 spell cast, I can either:

    A) Kill ONE undead via Turn Undead, and heal my comrades with Mass Heal

    or

    B) Kill FIVE undead via Implosion, and heal my comrades with a Positive Energy Burst.

    Is that the gist of it? :-) Think I'll keep avoiding putting anything into Turn Undead.
    Come now, you only kill 5 if you're real lucky and/or have really high DC. Of course you know that Implosion has long cool down.

    I don't get why it has to be either or? You can use both Implosion and TU you know: Implosion first, the TU to pick off what's not dead.
    Last edited by guardianx2009; 04-16-2012 at 02:12 PM.

  2. #22
    Community Member guardianx2009's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morticianjohn View Post
    Were mobs in epic wiz king immune to turning back when epic ward was in place, before insta kills in epics?
    Yes, probably.

  3. #23
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    great thread. Thanks for the hard work in this.

    I know several in our RP guild have had questions regarding the mechanic that weren't answered as well by the wiki.

    For anyone who plays RP turning undead is still a significant ability of the cleric.

    Also, ever since they fixed radiant burst so the undead actually get to save for half damage (before U13 they used to autofail), so turn is generally a better option at low levels since it will destroy or incapacitate several undead instead of just wounding all of them.
    Last edited by Postumus; 04-16-2012 at 01:33 PM.

  4. #24
    Community Member Henrieta's Avatar
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    Default Turn undead boost

    Great post! Thank you.

    Turn undead is another cool feature in this game which allows players to further diversify themselves, and have fun experimenting with new techniques/attacks, while remaining viable in other roles.

    Although, without boosts, new players may find this classic cleric ability does not work well in DDO.

    I'd rather see it remain in the game and have usefulness.

    I would support enhancing Turn Undead a bit in potency/effect, and perhaps allowing this power to work on select other creatures.
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  5. #25
    The Hatchery Fefnir_2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guardianx2009 View Post
    Come now, you only kill 5 if you're real lucky and/or have really high DC. Of course you know that Implosion has long cool down.

    I don't get why it has to be either or? You can use both Implosion and TU you know: Implosion first, the TU to pick off what's not dead.
    It's not that hard to get your Implosion DC up high enough if you don't dump your casting stat. I find it's more rare to see something resist my implosion than it is to just not get 5 mobs because I ran out of things around me to implode.

    EDIT: not to mention the incredibly poor fortitude saves undead have anyway.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by guardianx2009 View Post
    Come now, you only kill 5 if you're real lucky and/or have really high DC.
    Of course a Wis-dumped build will have trouble landing Implosion, but most Epic undead have crappy saves, and so a divine who actually tries to get DCs will Implode them quite nicely, even without uber-everything. If you're UNLUCKY and one of them rolls a 20 on their save, you might only get 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by guardianx2009 View Post
    I don't get why it has to be either or? You can use both Implosion and TU you know: Implosion first, the TU to pick off what's not dead.
    Only because TU uses are vastly more valuable to me for aura and burst than to kill 1 mob.

    Turn Undead can be very useful in low-level content, especially on Normal difficulty. But the fact that it CAN work in Epic, to take out a single mob, doesn't automatically make it worthwhile to do so.

    Besides, I think a better technique would be to use Undeath To Death to thin them out, then Implosion to finish off the stragglers. There's up to 9 with 2 spells.

    (Similar idea with outsiders: Banishment to thin the pack, Implosion to pick off the stragglers.)

  7. #27
    Community Member guardianx2009's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Of course a Wis-dumped build will have trouble landing Implosion, but most Epic undead have crappy saves, and so a divine who actually tries to get DCs will Implode them quite nicely, even without uber-everything. If you're UNLUCKY and one of them rolls a 20 on their save, you might only get 4.
    I took a stroll out to eLoch to test this. Ran up to the first group of undead cast my 35 DC implosion. Coincidently there were 5 of them, I must either be really UNLUCKY, or I have DC the equivalent of a wis-dumped build. I tried at least 2 times, it did not kill everything both times leaving 3 alive. So I went ahead to the next batch of undead archers. Same result. Then you have rooms where they are spread out..

    I'll conceded the fact that undead do seem to have lower saves than normal for epic, but to say you should able to waltz into a room of undead with just clear it with implosion all the time is simply not true.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    Only because TU uses are vastly more valuable to me for aura and burst than to kill 1 mob.

    Turn Undead can be very useful in low-level content, especially on Normal difficulty. But the fact that it CAN work in Epic, to take out a single mob, doesn't automatically make it worthwhile to do so.

    Besides, I think a better technique would be to use Undeath To Death to thin them out, then Implosion to finish off the stragglers. There's up to 9 with 2 spells.

    (Similar idea with outsiders: Banishment to thin the pack, Implosion to pick off the stragglers.)
    You can use all 3 as part of your arsenal: implosion/undeath/turn. Each one has it's own advantages (implosion is fort saves, undeath is small range will save, turn is single target) Whether you choose to or not is your preference.

    It can still be very useful in epic. Whether you agree or not isn't the focus of this topic. Fact of the matter is that it works and is available as an option.

  8. #28
    Community Member guardianx2009's Avatar
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    Did some more testing, updated the formula in the Original Post to be more accurate, confirmed that TOD rings do grant +3 bonus, among other things.

  9. #29
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    How do I get moar turns?
    The main sources of turns are:
    Code:
     Base                - 3
      +Charisma Modifier - 28 charisma (+9)
      +*Items            - Lesser Turning item (+2)
                           Alchemist Pendant (+1)
                           TOD Ring set: Radiant Servant (+1) 
                                         Warpriest (+2) 
                                         Silver Flame (+3)
      +AP               - Extra Turning Enhancements (Max +4)
      +Feat             - Extra Turning Feat (+4)
                          Past Life: Cleric (+1, max+3)
    
     *Items that grant additional turns do not stack with each other.
    Additional details regarding turn undead can be found here:
    http://ddowiki.com/page/Turn_Undead[/QUOTE]

    Last night I was fiddling around with my maximum turns after resting and I was puzzled to find that the Warpriest set and a lesser turning item (Token of the Faithful trinket) did not stack, but the Alchemical conservation property did appear to stack.

    Can anyone confirm this is working as intended: 1) alchemical conservation stacks, 2) ToD bonuses don't stack? I've regenerating turns and I tested the maximum amount from finishing out of a quest, from resting, and from sitting in a tavern and waiting for turns to regenerate. These values appeared consistent in those scenarios.

    I would be highly, highly disappointed if a level 18 set bonus is duplicated and made redundant by a level 9 trinket but that's what the wiki does say. Turning is a useful ability, as we've discussed, but it's certainly not powerful or in need of such balancing that we can't allow a level 18 set bonus to stack with a level 9 trinket.
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  10. #30
    Community Member guardianx2009's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    Last night I was fiddling around with my maximum turns after resting and I was puzzled to find that the Warpriest set and a lesser turning item (Token of the Faithful trinket) did not stack, but the Alchemical conservation property did appear to stack.

    Can anyone confirm this is working as intended: 1) alchemical conservation stacks, 2) ToD bonuses don't stack? I've regenerating turns and I tested the maximum amount from finishing out of a quest, from resting, and from sitting in a tavern and waiting for turns to regenerate. These values appeared consistent in those scenarios.

    I would be highly, highly disappointed if a level 18 set bonus is duplicated and made redundant by a level 9 trinket but that's what the wiki does say. Turning is a useful ability, as we've discussed, but it's certainly not powerful or in need of such balancing that we can't allow a level 18 set bonus to stack with a level 9 trinket.
    I just did some testing last night. Just swapping in the necklace, the extra turn from alchemical conservation from the pendant does not stack with the warpriest set. The pendant grants extra human skill, but the maximum number of turns remained the same.

  11. #31
    Community Member akiraproject24's Avatar
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    Every time I read the word turns I get more excited to try this out..Im currently going thru my cleric lives for my wizzy. I only went with a 12 starting cha but just crafted an eternal faith shard, and sorta hope I can use this ability to some extent.
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  12. #32
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    Is there any differences for paladin turning? I noticed the hunter of the dead prestige has +1 caster level bonus per tier. Is that the only difference for them?

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by akiraproject24 View Post
    Every time I read the word turns I get more excited to try this out..Im currently going thru my cleric lives for my wizzy. I only went with a 12 starting cha but just crafted an eternal faith shard, and sorta hope I can use this ability to some extent.
    With a 12 base cha, you should be pretty successful turning undead with an eternal faith shard, the spell, and a charisma item.

    Now that undead no longer auto-fail the radiant bursts, I find turning undead to be very useful. Sometimes it's better to destroy the wight caster and a few others with a turn than just injure all of them with a radiant burst.

  14. #34
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rush007 View Post
    Is there any differences for paladin turning? I noticed the hunter of the dead prestige has +1 caster level bonus per tier. Is that the only difference for them?
    Their base turn is -3 levels from their current level but that can be overcome by HotD prestige and higher charisma. My L14 HotD hits his turns reliably at level. Again casting Seek Eternal Rest is very valuable if you plan to try to turn undead.

  15. #35
    Community Member EatSmart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rush007 View Post
    Is there any differences for paladin turning? I noticed the hunter of the dead prestige has +1 caster level bonus per tier. Is that the only difference for them?
    You also have to double their hitdice to destroy as a paladin or non-radiant cleric (which will become relavent whenever other cleric PREs come out). I'm not sure how turn resistance factors into that calculation in DDO. Turn is a 1 minute helplessness state (that doesnt apply damage amp). As hotd pally with 3 cleric past lives, eternal faith and seek eternal rest, I found that turn destroyed some undead on elite at bravery level in every quest except xorian. In epic, she was making deathknights in lord of dust helpless.

    So basically the difference is that you'll mainly be only seeing the turned (not destroy) state when running bravery elite, unless you are significantly invested via past lives. Turn will hit deathwarded targets though.

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  16. #36
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    Default Pardon the slight necro but...

    I'm considering an 18/2 Cleric/Pally (weapon proficiencies & Cha+ to saves) and was wondering if the pally levels would add or hinder in any way for turning purposes?

  17. #37
    Community Member guardianx2009's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juduss View Post
    I'm considering an 18/2 Cleric/Pally (weapon proficiencies & Cha+ to saves) and was wondering if the pally levels would add or hinder in any way for turning purposes?
    I'm guessing pally levels hinder. You are probably turning as if you are 18 cleric, as opposed to 2 pally. Doubt they stack. This speculation of course, don't have an 18/2 to test/confirm with.

  18. #38
    Community Member bringjoy's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Great thread! TY so much for gathering all this info in one place.

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  19. #39
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Epic Destinies which boost cleric level could boost you to a base of 25. (correct?)

    Quote Originally Posted by guardianx2009 View Post

    It is interesting that Eternal Faith grants +6 to totalHD. It appears the +2 to maximum hitdice applies to both cleric level and totalHD. This makes Hallowed/Silverflame items even more useless. I will update the OP with this new data.
    Any update on this? I already wear eternal faith, but if this is working as stated, the silver flame affect on my shield does nothing and i can use a different shield.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirValentine View Post
    So, for 1 turn + 1 spell cast, I can either:

    A) Kill ONE undead via Turn Undead, and heal my comrades with Mass Heal

    or

    B) Kill FIVE undead via Implosion, and heal my comrades with a Positive Energy Burst.

    Is that the gist of it? :-) Think I'll keep avoiding putting anything into Turn Undead.
    At level 23 my cleric has unbuffed 42 wisdom and 32 charisma. On my first Caught in the Web (on my cleric) with an 11 man group (also had a FvS who was helping heal.) I stood in the melee group and used aura and occassional burst to heal (can't say how much the FvS was doing, I'm sure he did some and I know he helped with those not in the central melee group.) I never got below 50% mana and I ended up with 71 kills (most in the group.) I cannot say the breakdown of how many died from aura/burst/heal/turn, but I know turn was working and working fast.

    Next, the turn check mechanic still confuses me somehow. Check my numbers please:
    20 cleric levels
    3 cleric levels from Epic Destiny
    4 cleric levels from 2x cleric past lives
    1 cleric level from imp turning feat
    3 cleric levels from enhancements
    4 cleric levels from "seek eternal rest" spell
    2 cleric levels from eternal faith item
    ---
    37 cleric levels

    Using my unbuffed CHA of 32, what are my turn check and damage check numbers? (i have both eternal faith and silver flame items if it matters.)
    Last edited by redoubt; 01-07-2013 at 12:23 AM.
    /sigh

  20. #40
    Community Member guardianx2009's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Epic Destinies which boost cleric level could boost you to a base of 25. (correct?)



    Any update on this? I already wear eternal faith, but if this is working as stated, the silver flame affect on my shield does nothing and i can use a different shield.
    Silver flame is junk. Eternalfaith covers everything already.
    Edit:
    eternal faith grants +2 clr level +4 totalHD (+6 total turn damage)
    Silver flame grants 0 clr level +6 totalHD (6 total turn damage)

    At level 23 my cleric has unbuffed 42 wisdom and 32 charisma. On my first Caught in the Web (on my cleric) with an 11 man group (also had a FvS who was helping heal.) I stood in the melee group and used aura and occassional burst to heal (can't say how much the FvS was doing, I'm sure he did some and I know he helped with those not in the central melee group.) I never got below 50% mana and I ended up with 71 kills (most in the group.) I cannot say the breakdown of how many died from aura/burst/heal/turn, but I know turn was working and working fast.

    Next, the turn check mechanic still confuses me somehow. Check my numbers please:
    20 cleric levels
    3 cleric levels from Epic Destiny
    4 cleric levels from 2x cleric past lives
    1 cleric level from imp turning feat
    3 cleric levels from enhancements
    4 cleric levels from "seek eternal rest" spell
    2 cleric levels from eternal faith item
    ---
    37 cleric levels

    Using my unbuffed CHA of 32, what are my turn check and damage check numbers? (i have both eternal faith and silver flame items if it matters.)
    Epic levels/destinies as it stands do not boost turn levels in way. Eternal faith grants total of 4 turn levels. You breakdown should be:

    20 cleric levels
    4 cleric levels from 2x cleric past lives
    1 cleric level from imp turning feat
    3 cleric levels from enhancements
    4 cleric levels from "seek eternal rest" spell
    4 cleric levels from eternal faith item
    ---
    36 cleric levels

    You should be able to turn mob cr 37 - 40

    I should update the to reflect the new EN-EE system one of these days...
    Last edited by guardianx2009; 02-09-2013 at 09:56 PM.

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