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  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    This is why I totally wouldn't mind Kensai Power Surge as a stance and not just a boost with limited uses.
    All the stuff that you many/unlimited charges of but it's annoying to have to reactivate it all the time should just be a stance. Frenzy, Divine Might, Power surge... Frenzy is the dumbest one probably, as it's basically free and unlimited, you just have to keep reactivating it for no reason. Although I'm also pretty unlikely to run out of my 13 or so divine mights, and that's without any enhancements or feats that would increase the number lol. I don't have a fighter but I am pretty sure kensai have a good number of surges too and it's supposed to be a "use liberally" ability, not a "save for the best possible moment" one.

    Rage is the only one I would keep as-is, for obvious reasons (hint: it's not because of level 20 barbs )
    Last edited by svinja; 04-19-2012 at 11:56 AM.

  2. #402
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Acquiring the favor and gear to use SF potions prior to level 20 is the exception, not the rule.
    My point is that they are not necessary. I barely used them even after I got them.
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  3. #403
    Community Member Emili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    This is why I totally wouldn't mind Kensai Power Surge as a stance and not just a boost with limited uses.
    Rage and surge are not stances for simple reason... things lie PA and CE are, What happens when you've one stance active and go into another? That is why I just suggest a longer duration of the surge.

    Quote Originally Posted by svinja View Post
    All the stuff that you many/unlimited charges of but it's annoying to have to reactivate it all the time should just be a stance. Frenzy, Divine Might, Power surge... Frenzy is the dumbest one probably, as it's basically free and unlimited, you just have to keep reactivating it for no reason. Although I'm also pretty unlikely to run out of my 13 or so divine mights, and that's without any enhancements or feats that would increase the number lol. I don't have a fighter but I am pretty sure kensai have a good number of surges too and it's supposed to be a "use liberally" ability, not a "save for the best possible moment" one.

    Rage is the only one I would keep as-is, for obvious reasons (hint: it's not because of level 20 barbs )
    At about level 18 power surge turns into a 10 or 12 count... one minute a piece and do not regen like turns do. People tend hold onto them in longer content or spare them in things where boss fights take longer ...

    Makes me think about last night as I was running my tr'd wiz - "shrines", is kind of funny really... pure melee have a tendency to use them more than those with a blue bar...
    Last edited by Emili; 04-19-2012 at 12:23 PM.
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  4. #404
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Acquiring the favor and gear to use SF potions prior to level 20 is the exception, not the rule.
    well for people who want self-sufficiency, that's kinda messed up. i got it at level 16 as well, as i recall, on a first life fighter. now that the new quest line (free to everyone) is silver flame favor as well, i expect it will be even more common to have it around level 16.

  5. #405

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Acquiring the favor and gear to use SF potions prior to level 20 is the exception, not the rule.
    I got my favor at level 16 too. I think waiting until level 20 is a choice and not really the rule at all. It's more than possible to go farm the favor sooner.

    EDIT: Healing kegs instead of healing potions just for those barbarians with power chug. Just like powder kegs.

  6. #406
    Community Member Emili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    well for people who want self-sufficiency, that's kinda messed up. i got it at level 16 as well, as i recall, on a first life fighter. now that the new quest line (free to everyone) is silver flame favor as well, i expect it will be even more common to have it around level 16.
    I've had access of them for years ... since cap level fourteen. I've always been a favour runner though and SF was the first to hit the 400 favour threshold. SF cap is currently 519? dunno would have to log in a character...

    I remember favour capping over and over again over time, Ya remind me of elite Demon's Den I duo'd my Pure fighter along with riftbow (a ranger) to top it once again back when ... be a good thing Rift played a ranger to it's strengths ... popped the traps, kited Ms'ssss slither while I prepped the halls.

    I favour cap for different reason though... Cannith challenges GRRR, threw in a monkey wrench. My main be a pure fighter and gathering stars far easier with a more versitile doll and gathering people to do such so's be always end up bringing some-class else - even though she'd out-survive many of them... can't get her beyond 4007 and have much to go ... just can't do so alone and well noone will help me. Annoying.

    The SF pots while ok the thing I always used the most of in SF armoury were the arrows for my rangers ... was a time there were no quivers and arrows took up pack space in 100 stacks then came quivers and devils next mod ... guess what silver flame arrows (both varieties) are made out of? Yes, between house P and SF a single quiver of 3000 to 4500 arrows made of silver be pretty sweet. Point being I think is that over the years I bet I spent least a mil on arrows there compared to SF pots. O' course "Mark of SF" being part of a holyburst shard also is a very nice perk.

    Last edited by Emili; 04-19-2012 at 04:58 PM.
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  7. #407
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Acquiring the favor and gear to use SF potions prior to level 20 is the exception, not the rule.
    This is my dog in this fight right here. People dont endevor to use the stuff that is available - so why shoulod it be made easier for those who cant be bothered?

    Acquiring the favor and gear to use SF potions prior to level 20 should be encouraged to become the rule. Players should take full advantage of what is available before complaining that more is needed.
    Last edited by Chai; 04-19-2012 at 12:43 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #408

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    There are also complaints about the side effects making you helpless, meaning that those who say this can't even be bothered to make the incredibly easy build choice to get all stats to 11. If you're going helpless, you're not even using gear swaps?!

  9. #409
    Community Member Emili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    This is my dog in this fight right here. People dont endevor to use the stuff that is available - so why shoulod it be made easier for those who cant be bothered?

    Acquiring the favor and gear to use SF potions prior to level 20 should be encouraged to become the rule. Players should take full advantage of what is available before complaining that more is needed.
    Thay are easy enough to attain... but attaining them usually means to those melee. they must grind in melee unfriendly quests. come a pure melee which constantly requires DW and every buff in clickie form & off hireling through most those quests ... be a pain in the arse. I mean is a couple days ago I solo'd elite GoP on my wiz, as I think back I done so on my cleric many times at level too less than a 50/50 shot on a melee ... Elite inferno ... kiting mephs, fleshmaker - used to be able to do so solo somewheres down the line they changed the timers ... my barb, monk and fvs used to get those runes back right/left side np, now even they need grouped.

    Oh, my view? it's far easier on another class ...Near all of those quests from a melee perspective are more work than any other class, when someone speaks about solo this or solo that or I've this favour or that... I see thier class and think to myself - geee ya wet behind the ears yet. Favour run... is logical conclusion and easily makes sense that a blue bar (quick toon) is easier to do so. Ironic really they benefit the least.


    Last edited by Emili; 04-19-2012 at 02:12 PM.
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  10. #410
    Community Member Emili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EllisDee37 View Post
    There are also complaints about the side effects making you helpless, meaning that those who say this can't even be bothered to make the incredibly easy build choice to get all stats to 11. If you're going helpless, you're not even using gear swaps?!
    Personally is not hard to get above mark in any stat, I think the lowest stat on any of my toons is 14 before boat?... Anyways, the reasons I do not go into chugin' fests very often are ... the costs and of course defenses, SF affect more than your six ability stats they affect your saves, ac and skill so marginalize defense and when ya use the big one your offense (which is actually a defense when you think about it... dead mob do not hurt you.) Usually when I drink one is under pressure then I run around and wait it out... otherwise it turns into a compete chug fest... and if not careful there that's when that one spell may come at a low point and take ya down.

    Last edited by Emili; 04-19-2012 at 02:27 PM.
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  11. #411
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ainmosni View Post
    i absolutely 100% agree with you. buff the HELL out of barbarian and kensai dps, buff paladins and ranger a BIT (think fine tune, not complete overhaul- for rangers. i think the pally class needs to be looked at.) and increase defender threat generation to keep on par with barbs and fighters. i think there's nothing wrong with certain classes trading off their self-healing ability for DPS output, in most endgame groups these will be NICHE characters and certainly not anyone's go-to guy for those 'special' runs where anything can happen.
    I thought ranger and esp paladin where already leagues behind fighter and barbarian dps? So lets increase the gap? Yeah ranger and paladin, defenses and self healing are good, but to get their defenses and self healing up to top par they do have to give up something. The way some people go on about the *advantages* of ranger and paladin self healing you would think its as good as cleric/fs self healing? Its not, 250 from cure serious is nice, but its not like a heal from a cleric that tops up your entire hp bar, and its one spell and is on a timmer, and you do have to get some enhancements and gear to get it, and if you want to use it in the middle of epic combate a feat quicken is very useful. Yeah I can beat down 1-3 epic melee mobs often and keep myself up on my ranger but I have to switch to my CC weapons which lowers my dps even further, a decent geared barb or kensai would chop them down even faster.

    I see people going on here like casters are king, sure I agree, but ranger and paladin are ahead of barbarians and fighters over all? I disagree, with the game the way it is DPS is king, Take an epic raid like chrono, when theres multiple fighters and barbarians are there groans about the possibility that dps will be lacking? Throw in multiple paladins and rangers instead and notice the divine and arcane casters start to fidget and eye their pots esp if its a pug.

    I don't think what rangers and especially paladins give up in terms of dps for survivability is worth it in comparison to the *current* dps of fighters and barbarians, lets tip the scale even further, good idea. Then you try and squeeze as much dps out of your ranger and paladin builds and you find yourself skimping so much on the survivability aspects of your class that you might as well roll a fighter/barb or your left with the ranger/paladin icon but a very heavy splash into monk/fighter or barb as well if your a ranger, and most likely your giving up something.

    No I dont think paladins and rangers should have the same dps as fighters and barbarians but I do think that it should not be as big a difference as it currently is. When melees join a quest for the harder epics the party is often going to get someone to be a dedicated healer, boom most of the paladins and rangers strengths are immediately less important. Oh having a melee who can emergency heal if something happens to the dedicated healer is an advantage? A ranger, paladin, and a bard apply for that last spot, im most likely taking the bard.

  12. #412
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    I thought ranger and esp paladin where already leagues behind fighter and barbarian dps? So lets increase the gap?
    I agree that the gap should be massive when you consider how much fuss people make about it, like, in the sense that Barbs and Fighters should be doing at least twice the damage output of Rangers and Pallys, if not triple as opposed to the, what? Like 10% extra damage?

    Now this stems, not from a care about fighters, but the point that players bring up time and time again is that "They need to give up DPS for survivability" and if that is the case, that it all hinges in that DPS ladder, then then the DPS of such a dependent toon like a Fighter or Barb should be near god-like compared to anyone else to compensate their lack of survivability.

    If that was the case, Honestly, I'd shut up because then it would be fair. But that is not the case, Pallys and Rangers can get pretty close and in some cases even beat the DPS of a Barb or Fighter, and that does not justify the survivability those two classes had to give up to be max DPS.

    Know what I mean?
    Last edited by Ungood; 04-19-2012 at 06:51 PM.

  13. #413
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I agree that the gap should be massive when you consider how much fuss people make about it, like, in the sense that Barbs and Fighters should be doing at least twice the damage output of Rangers and Pallys, if not triple as opposed to the, what? Like 10% extra damage?

    If the point players bring up time and time again is that "They need to give up DPS" then that DPS should be near god-like compared to anyone else to compensate their lack of survivability.
    If they are doing at least twice the damage output then why bother with ranger and paladin? If Barbarians and fighters did twice the damage of rangers and paladins but have less self healing, spell casters do twice the damage of rangers and paladins and have *better* self healing.......... hmmm ranger and paladin *flavour* class only? A bard or artificer joins the raid and brings more overall dps to the the raid than a survivable type ranger and paladin would and is a better healer and can sustainably better heal others and the tank...... what does a paladin and ranger bring to the table? Solo? often casters can do it much better and still bring more to end game quests and raids.

    also the lower hp pool of rangers negate somewhat their evasion and other defences also rogues as well, was funny saw a 530 well geared rogue appear to get oneshoted by an ogre in epic von1, it was funny at the time. (can they bypass fort?). It wasnt me so I couldnt go and have a look at how much damage the single hit did, or whatever it was, but a higher hp total might give you more a chance of surviving stuff like that.

    yeah when people compare ranger and paladin dps to fighter and barbarian dps and say its not that far behind they do it in the most favourable circumstances, ie its against ranger FE/ or evil outsiders on a Kotc, or the 20 second manyshot, or towards the lower end of survivable ranger or paladin builds, with heavy splashes, especially ranger, more ranger levels than 12? not likely, then they are argue that the said paladin/ranger build that is only 10% 20%dps whatever behind the dps fighter or barbarian dps build in fact has all the advantages of a more survivable ranger/paladin build which actually is 30%/40% dps average behind the dps fighter or barbarian build. While all this is going on, monks are laughing all the way to the bank .

    Even now ranger and paladins are starting/have been veiwed as more of a flavour class in end game, unless the paladin is *the* tank people think its a waste of a dps spot if they can take something else. Lets make it more so...... in fact lets just remove the classes altogether. I think that would make a lot of certain other people happy after all ranger and paladin are not considered *dps* by many they can't buff others with rams might or zeal.
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 04-19-2012 at 07:14 PM.

  14. #414
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    If they are doing at least twice the damage output then why bother with ranger and paladin? If Barbarians and fighters did twice the damage of rangers and paladins but have less self healing, spell casters do twice the damage of rangers and paladins and have *better* self healing.......... hmmm ranger and paladin *flavour* class only?
    and now you understand the dilemma and issue that Barb and Fighter face, if they only do 10% more damage then a Ranger or Paladin, why a Barb or Fighter? Flavor Only?

    If a Barb or Fighter is to be DPS King, then they should be just that, the honest King of DPS, Outdoing everyone and anyone else in the game. Right now, if a Pally hits for 100 and barb hit for 115. What is that? a Joke, and even then, on evil outsiders, a Pally can hit for more with all the stacking effects they have.

    So, if this DPS is such a huge deal, then, make it such. Buff the daylights out the Barbs and Fighters, or give them self healing worth something.

  15. #415
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    and now you understand the dilemma and issue that Barb and Fighter face, if they only do 10% more damage then a Ranger or Paladin, why a Barb or Fighter? Flavor Only?

    If a Barb or Fighter is to be DPS King, then they should be just that, the honest King of DPS, Outdoing everyone and anyone else in the game. Right now, if a Pally hits for 100 and barb hit for 115. What is that? a Joke, and even then, on evil outsiders, a Pally can hit for more with all the stacking effects they have.

    So, if this DPS is such a huge deal, then, make it such. Buff the daylights out the Barbs and Fighters, or give them self healing worth something.
    please read the whole post, stop only snipping out the part that suits your arguement, the ranger and paladin builds that are only 10% or so behind the barbarian or fighter dps builds often have just as little survivability or only a little more, and often have to turn to SF pots themselves. Why is it that I hardly see rangers and paladins in epics? 70% of the melee seem to be barbarians and fighters, the rest rogues and monks? Maybe its just khybers love affair with the horc barb? .

    Yeah buff the daylights out of barbarian and fighter dps, make it 200% 400% of what surviable rangers and paladins can even hope of touching, then you go and play only survivable paladins and rangers since their current surviablility is such a *huge* deal. I mean more than a favoured soul or wf sorc the way you seem to over blow it. Yeah rangers and paladins are soloing or duoing epic dq1, chains of flame, every day with their uber survivability and only having 10% less dps than the most dps focused fighter or barb at the same time they get this survivability without sacrificing a thing its served up on a silver platter.

    And I see more than my fair share of rangers and paladins that dont self heal at all, in fact it seems to be a minority that do it to any degree.

    The way some of you go on about ranger and paladin healing its as if it has no limmits or weaknees or trade offs, news flash it does. Just like fighter builds that might splash and sacrifice some dps for a little self healing rangers and paladins as well have to make some sacrifices as well, rangers if they want to have serious dps often have to take a heavy splash which does seem to hurt their cure serious or they dont even have blue bar healing at all, paladins are already feat and enhancement point starved.

    please stop ignoring what im saying that you dont want to read, if you disagree with my estimates just come right out and say it, I don't mind that, but stop trying to twist my words by taking out the bits that are counter to your arguement.

    so the paladin hits for 100 the barb for 115 ok how much do they crit for and how often do they crit? smites? ok how many smites does the paladin get, do they ever run out? how much self healing does this paladin build actually have? how long and how fast can the paladin build sustain its self healing? How long does the barbarians rage and other damage boosting effects last? does he run out? 100 damage and 115 damage, what kind of mob is it against? Does the paladin have AC, what are their saves? evasion maybe? Both 2handed weapon fighting?

    If we
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 04-19-2012 at 08:03 PM.

  16. #416
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    please read the whole post, stop only snipping out the part that suits your arguement, the ranger and paladin builds that are only 10% or so behind the barbarian or fighter dps builds often have just as little survivability or only a little more, and often have to turn to SF pots themselves.
    I am going to have to out-rightly disagree with this, having played 2 pallies to cap, one a survivor build and the other a DPS, while yes, the DPS was a little less surviving, IE: Not as many SP and a pretty cruddy LoH, they still both had Fear Immunity, Disease, and, several decent means to recover life mid fight, not to mention, while my DPS pally had less SP then my Survivor, my DPS could heal mid fight enough to stay alive much better then, quite a few other members of the party, and leveled just fine without SF pots. In fact I have only one toon that has bothered to get the favor for a SP pot, simply because I hate grinding, and that was because I am doing a elite streak and it just kinda happened, and even that toon, I don't use SF pots that much on either (mainly because they can toss a heal scroll with 95%, but that is neither hear nor there)

    Why is it that I hardly see rangers and paladins in epics?
    I would wager it is because you don't hunt with the rangers I know

    70% of the melee seem to be barbarians and fighters, the rest rogues and monks? Maybe its just khybers love affair with the horc barb? .
    I believe this has more to do with the fact that if you do an EPIC with a Melee you need a healer, and if you are going to have a healer anyway...

    The point is, while in the end game, and raids, I'll admit, DPS is King (Unless you are a tank), however levels 1 - 19, the Pally and Ranger own, hands down, and that is not fair either.

    It is like either you can level with ease or you are end game viable, in fact, you will see several builds that mention talking to fried or even LRing as part of being end game ready.

    That sound like good design to you?

  17. #417
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I am going to have to out-rightly disagree with this, having played 2 pallies to cap, one a survivor build and the other a DPS, while yes, the DPS was a little less surviving, IE: Not as many SP and a pretty cruddy LoH, they still both had Fear Immunity, Disease, and, several decent means to recover life mid fight, not to mention, while my DPS pally had less SP then my Survivor, my DPS could heal mid fight enough to stay alive much better then, quite a few other members of the party, and leveled just fine without SF pots. In fact I have only one toon that has bothered to get the favor for a SP pot, simply because I hate grinding, and that was because I am doing a elite streak and it just kinda happened, and even that toon, I don't use SF pots that much on either (mainly because they can toss a heal scroll with 95%, but that is neither hear nor there)



    I would wager it is because you don't hunt with the rangers I know

    Was that so hard to do? why didnt you do that from the start?

    there are items for fear immunity and disease immunity or to remove disease. Did your dps pally have less other *defences* compared to your survivor pally? Its not just all dps, and self healing, you could toss a heal scroll with 95% chance, so didnt need to use your SF pots much? how is this much different then what thrud said about his umd using fighter?

    I believe this has more to do with the fact that if you do an EPIC with a Melee you need a healer, and if you are going to have a healer anyway...

    The point is, while in the end game, and raids, I'll admit, DPS is King (Unless you are a tank), however levels 1 - 19, the Pally and Ranger own, hands down, and that is not fair either.

    It is like either you can level with ease or you are end game viable, in fact, you will see several builds that mention talking to fried or even LRing as part of being end game ready.

    That sound like good design to you?
    was that so hard to do? why didnt you do that from that start?
    Last edited by NaturalHazard; 04-19-2012 at 08:48 PM.

  18. #418
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    please stop ignoring what im saying that you dont want to read, if you disagree with my estimates just come right out and say it, I don't mind that, but stop trying to twist my words by taking out the bits that are counter to your arguement.
    I am disagreeing with you, not ignoring you. and maybe, I'll admit, just working you up a bit. Feeling a little argumentative and took it out on you, sorry.

    But lets be honest with each other, melee are on the bottom rung as it is, compared to casters, melee are a joke for the most part, and I believe that buffs need to be given, and they are long overdue. Maybe the new enhancement line will open a new door and things like that, but, right now, Fighters and Barbs, pretty much get the short end of the stick all the way up the levels.

    You know it, I know it, pretty much everyone and anyone that played a pure fighter or barb knows it, and even some people who don't can see how hard they have it.

    So I really fail for the most part to see what your objection is in this situation.

  19. #419
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    I am disagreeing with you, not ignoring you. and maybe, I'll admit, just working you up a bit. Feeling a little argumentative and took it out on you, sorry.

    But lets be honest with each other, melee are on the bottom rung as it is, compared to casters, melee are a joke for the most part, and I believe that buffs need to be given, and they are long overdue. Maybe the new enhancement line will open a new door and things like that, but, right now, Fighters and Barbs, pretty much get the short end of the stick all the way up the levels.

    You know it, I know it, pretty much everyone and anyone that played a pure fighter or barb knows it, and even some people who don't can see how hard they have it.

    So I really fail for the most part to see what your objection is in this situation.
    I think we both want the same thing, the only difference is the how much and how its distributed, and yeah I kinda figured you where trying to wind me up, I can be sucker for that, but I dont mind if its with light hearted intent(after I take a second to calm down).

    Yes I as well do have high hopes for for the new enhancement system. Yes I might be biased against fighters, barbs because they dont appeal to me as much to play as other melee classes. But I got a lot of friends who play fighters and barbs, some even exclusively, and I did find it frustrating where I wanted to take one of these friends on my sins farms, when we both needed shroud mats and even with a healer hire for him and me trying to clear in front of him he kept dying and it wasnt fun for either of us. This was a while ago, i guess now with the lords of dust I can help him grind out some favour for SF pots now.

    I think most of the physical damage classes could do with some dps and improvements to self healing. Also so could have more options abilities for CC, in terms of CC bards are fine I think, monks I think have enough, barbs and fighters maybe could do with some more, and rangers, paladins as well but maybe weaker than those available to fighters/barbarians. I will admit im a little inexperianced in terms of fighter/barb stuns trips dont have one myself, but it seems the cool downs a little bit too long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalHazard View Post
    I think we both want the same thing, the only difference is the how much and how its distributed, and yeah I kinda figured you where trying to wind me up, I can be sucker for that, but I dont mind if its with light hearted intent(after I take a second to calm down).

    Yes I as well do have high hopes for for the new enhancement system. Yes I might be biased against fighters, barbs because they dont appeal to me as much to play as other melee classes. But I got a lot of friends who play fighters and barbs, some even exclusively, and I did find it frustrating where I wanted to take one of these friends on my sins farms, when we both needed shroud mats and even with a healer hire for him and me trying to clear in front of him he kept dying and it wasnt fun for either of us. This was a while ago, i guess now with the lords of dust I can help him grind out some favour for SF pots now.

    I think most of the physical damage classes could do with some dps and improvements to self healing. Also so could have more options abilities for CC, in terms of CC bards are fine I think, monks I think have enough, barbs and fighters maybe could do with some more, and rangers, paladins as well but maybe weaker than those available to fighters/barbarians. I will admit im a little inexperianced in terms of fighter/barb stuns trips dont have one myself, but it seems the cool downs a little bit too long.
    To be honest, I don't really have an issue with the DPS split, I was just ruffling your feathers, sorry about that.

    Here is where I stand, on the eve of a huge expansion, with a new grouping system (Auto-Group) being put in, I can firmly say I feel that it would be best for the game overall to start moving all classes in the direction of more self-sufficiency, each class able to take care of it own, in it's own way, especially in the mind levels, which as it stands Turbine seems to be trying to move players to quickly go though those levels to get to Epic Content.

    Since I have no idea what Epic Content will bring to the game, or how it will balance the game into those levels. I can't speak of that, but, for the Heroic Levels, as I see it, more balance among the classes is better, more survivability, more self sufficiency is the way the game should go. We should be able to group up for a quest with minimal ot no care what classes join.

    Case in point, just work with me on this, when I hunt with my arcane, I normally duo with a cleric. However, when I die, I know it is all my fault, not theirs, not anyone else, it's all mine. And maybe I am crazy, but the more I play, the more I feel that really is the way it should be.

    If I die I (or someone else) dies, they should not be feeling justified or even the urge or need to be screaming at the cleric for not healing them, you know? Not in a normal dungeon at least.

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