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  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by svinja View Post
    My main is a paladin, and I hit myself for ~250 with heal scrolls. This is already enough in most cases. If it isn't, I can CSW myself for 300, or LoH for 550 or something like that. But I invested a lot in my self-healing, something most people complaining about it did not do. I also have far higher survivability than a caster. The only thing I don't have is the ability to kill a lot of mobs quickly.

    The problem is, people don't want to make very cheap +6 cha skills items, they don't want to farm favor and get the stats needed for SF pots, don't want to take metamagics on paladins and rangers, don't even have the minimal 1.7 healing amp anyone seriously trying to self-heal should have...
    Yep, so they just roll up the classes that don't need to do any of those things they don't want to do. Works great if effectiveness is more important than play style to them.

  2. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Yep, so they just roll up the classes that don't need to do any of those things they don't want to do. Works great if effectiveness is more important than play style to them.
    Yet people don't do that, they still play melee and cry on the forums like a baby because they want powerful self-healing without any effort. Even though it's completely unnecessary on melee and mainly a convenience. You can do fine in any content on a melee with 0 self-healing. There is also free self-healing available called hirelings. Assuming group play, it is useful to have good self-heals on casters, ranged and tanks. On DPS melee, it is unnecessary, it is purely a luxury. DPS needs HP, DPS and at least average amp. It will make you healer much happier than you being able to self-heal.
    Last edited by svinja; 04-08-2012 at 05:24 AM.

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Or keep Silver Flame potions, but make them 20x as expensive (they should be emergency heals, not use all the time heals). If they made them that expensive, I'd even be okay with them removing all the negative aspects from them.
    Yes, make potions more expensive in a game where there's little to spend plat on anyway. That will solve the problem. /rollseyes

    This thread is wayyyyyy off base. Any discussion around paladin and ranger healing, or "investment" in level 20 gear isn't what this thread is about. What it is about: Make it easier for melee to self-heal while leveling. SF potions (which realistically aren't obtainable until level 20) are already a sufficient way for melee to heal themselves.
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  4. #324
    Community Member Standal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    Lets be honest, Even in PnP magic-users were not helpless at melee, nor were they ever "glass cannons", hence the very existence of touch attack spells which date back to PnP first edition.

    In fact, magic-users were never presented as weak in melee combat at all, Gandaf is a prime example of what a "Wizard" was, he could cast spells, but he when it came to it, he draw his swords and fought.

    So, in that regard, as far as I could imagine DDO is hitting the nail on the head in regards to how a well specified and geared magic-user should be able to handle themselves in and out of combat.

    As far as I view things, it is now a matter of bringing melee up into the same game balance that casters have enjoyed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Your 'fix' smells a lot like nerf to me.
    The spell pass went way too far. Arcanes had some issues and instead of making incremental improvements they decided to reduce SP requirements for damage spells and add boss DOTs. It was too much. Will the game be fun if all classes can crush all content like a WF sorc currently can?

  5. #325
    Community Member nickzed's Avatar
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    I find hirelings, small self healing, and/or healer party members circumvent the need for huge self healing on melee.

    I think my full healing cleric needs more ability to do more dual wield khopesh damage than a tempest!!!

  6. #326
    Community Member Kysean's Avatar
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    The last time I leveled a melee up (pure fighter), I had silver flame potions at level 16. It is fairly easy to get the favor by that level and they are extremely useful for getting up to cap in zerg/byoh groups.

    That being said, I would love better self healing options for melees for levels 12-16, chugging cure serious through gianthold is not fun.

  7. #327
    Community Member Xeraphim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    This thread is wayyyyyy off base. Any discussion around paladin and ranger healing, or "investment" in level 20 gear isn't what this thread is about. What it is about: Make it easier for melee to self-heal while leveling. SF potions (which realistically aren't obtainable until level 20) are already a sufficient way for melee to heal themselves.

    Yes, it is off base.

    No, the SF pots are NOT an "effective" way to heal yourself. Paralysis for 30 seconds while a crapload of things are bashing your face in is not an effective solution to needing 300 HP in a flash. Supporting the cruelly sadistic penalty to using them is simply idiotic when the well being of the playerbase is in question.

  8. #328
    Community Member Xeraphim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kysean View Post
    The last time I leveled a melee up (pure fighter), I had silver flame potions at level 16. It is fairly easy to get the favor by that level and they are extremely useful for getting up to cap in zerg/byoh groups.

    That being said, I would love better self healing options for melees for levels 12-16, chugging cure serious through gianthold is not fun.
    You probably also had a good group or were running things on Normal. -10 to all stats and total -15 to all abilities is pretty harsh for taking the pot on anything but a drooling idiot melee that only needs 2 stats: STR and CON. The Slow effect on it is just acid on the spike cake.

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by svinja View Post
    Yet people don't do that, they still play melee and cry on the forums like a baby because they want powerful self-healing without any effort. Even though it's completely unnecessary on melee and mainly a convenience. You can do fine in any content on a melee with 0 self-healing. There is also free self-healing available called hirelings. Assuming group play, it is useful to have good self-heals on casters, ranged and tanks. On DPS melee, it is unnecessary, it is purely a luxury. DPS needs HP, DPS and at least average amp. It will make you healer much happier than you being able to self-heal.
    Why is it useful for all those others to have good self heals, if it isn't for the melees? I really don't understand the logic there.

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickzed View Post
    I find hirelings, small self healing, and/or healer party members circumvent the need for huge self healing on melee.

    I think my full healing cleric needs more ability to do more dual wield khopesh damage than a tempest!!!
    Mix in some DPs and dual wield those khopeshi while kitting through a blade barrier and you will likely exceed their DPS. Which is a big part of the problem, there is nothing they can do that you can't, all while retaining 6 or more times as much self healing ability than you need. Kind of makes it foolish to even bring those needy types along as the game plays much smoother when healing another is the exception, not the expectation.

  11. #331
    Community Member nickzed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremmlynn View Post
    Mix in some DPs and dual wield those khopeshi while kitting through a blade barrier and you will likely exceed their DPS. Which is a big part of the problem, there is nothing they can do that you can't, all while retaining 6 or more times as much self healing ability than you need. Kind of makes it foolish to even bring those needy types along as the game plays much smoother when healing another is the exception, not the expectation.
    but too be successful at dual wielding those khopeshes i'm going to have to sacrifice taking some feats, putting points in str, etc. So why not sacrifice as a melee by maxing UMD and using wands/scrolls

  12. #332
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Personally, all I really would like to see is some fast healing for all characters when Out of Combat.

    Slugging down all those pots is just slow. I wish there was a mechanism that when a character is Out of Combat that he could drink down 10 pots at once, just to speed things up.

    Don't know if it's possible but that would help out alot, IMO.

  13. #333
    Community Member licho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Personally, all I really would like to see is some fast healing for all characters when Out of Combat.

    Slugging down all those pots is just slow. I wish there was a mechanism that when a character is Out of Combat that he could drink down 10 pots at once, just to speed things up.

    Don't know if it's possible but that would help out alot, IMO.
    But, but... it spounds as the idea 'from the other game'.
    We dont need such ideas in OUR game.

    /sarcasm off ;-)

    Seriously i agre, outside combat there should be some more convienient way to regain health convienient, all this clicking is boring. But maybe i should just search for the other game. Some people here seems to like grind and repeatous actions.
    Last edited by licho; 04-08-2012 at 12:19 PM.

  14. #334
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    (could be said about any class, but..) You see people saying paladins and rangers are gimp, bad dps spots, and the obvious trade off, spell casting, isnt worth it. Then you read threads about how 'melees' need more self healing to balance with 'powerful casters'.

    My paladin has ~600 sp and 37sp maximized cure serious hits for ~200-280 hp with ardor going (superior clickies for precast, greater potions for tight incombat situations to beef up emergency heals). I like this for survival and making the character more diverse/self sufficient/able to contribute. Lay on hands, pot/wand and umd make for very long lasting healing capability (sometimes for more than just myself).

    I had trouble soloing with my rogue for a while, then I got improved deception and named debuffing weapons and things either get debuffed/paralyzed or just die so quickly, even when I have agro, that I only need to scroll up my HP every once in a while.
    Last edited by CanuckWisdom; 04-08-2012 at 01:08 PM.

  15. #335
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpone View Post
    Make it easier for melee to self-heal while leveling.
    Play better and you won't need self-healing. Or invest in self-healing and self-heal. Or get a hireling. Or join a group.

    Leveling a melee in this game is not hard.
    Last edited by Thrudh; 04-08-2012 at 01:51 PM.
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    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
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    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  16. #336
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Personally, all I really would like to see is some fast healing for all characters when Out of Combat.

    Slugging down all those pots is just slow. I wish there was a mechanism that when a character is Out of Combat that he could drink down 10 pots at once, just to speed things up.

    Don't know if it's possible but that would help out alot, IMO.
    I'd be okay with that too... I have no problem with out-of-combat healing being easier. Silver Flame potions were supposed to be that, but barbarians and fighters can shrug off the -10 to STR.

    So make Silver Flame Potions easier to get, but INCREASE their penalties so they can't be used in-combat... I think that's a great idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh_Troll View Post
    We are no more d000m'd then we were a week ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eth View Post
    When you stop caring about xp/min this game becomes really fun. Trust me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary_Gygax
    No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.

  17. #337

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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Personally, all I really would like to see is some fast healing for all characters when Out of Combat.

    Slugging down all those pots is just slow. I wish there was a mechanism that when a character is Out of Combat that he could drink down 10 pots at once, just to speed things up.

    Don't know if it's possible but that would help out alot, IMO.
    Barbarian power chug enhancement. I like it.

  18. #338
    Community Member Cardtrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aashrym View Post
    Barbarian power chug enhancement. I like it.
    Dwarfs should get it too, as a Racial Quaff ability.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Zero View Post
    One day I just wrote "Why Do I Die So Much?" in party chat, and that is how I learned about fortification.

  19. #339
    Community Member Emili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckWisdom View Post
    (could be said about any class, but..) You see people saying paladins and rangers are gimp, bad dps spots, and the obvious trade off, spell casting, isnt worth it. Then you read threads about how 'melees' need more self healing to balance with 'powerful casters'.

    My paladin has ~600 sp and 37sp maximized cure serious hits for ~200-280 hp with ardor going (superior clickies for precast, greater potions for tight incombat situations to beef up emergency heals). I like this for survival and making the character more diverse/self sufficient/able to contribute. Lay on hands, pot/wand and umd make for very long lasting healing capability (sometimes for more than just myself).

    I had trouble soloing with my rogue for a while, then I got improved deception and named debuffing weapons and things either get debuffed/paralyzed or just die so quickly, even when I have agro, that I only need to scroll up my HP every once in a while.
    All depends in the trades... the scope of the quest, the group, the environment... a good example is a tweaked out barb can often solo something like elite sins quicker than a rogue using paralyzers, sure it sucks down some sf pots while doing so... but it's a fact. Yet, in same light the rogue will solo that same elite sins quicker than a pally poised to be more self sufficient ... like wise a PM even better or a decked FvS just shear zurges the quest with little there to stop it.

    There is a proportion of it all... too little DPS and more tactics and healing are required, Too little healing and the DPS becomes unsustainable... You do not break speed records without DPS, you do not survive to break speed records without healing... is a fact you want eLoB dead quick you make it so only by means of one way - remove his HP faster... likewise sustaining such to see it so requires a balance to do so... Mana and resources in turn become costly at the point when "not enough umph" is on mark II likewise when not enough mana in group to sustain and keep damages dished forth.

    Not many people know this or have I told this... I actually tapper back and give up DPS in "weaker" groups ... swaping out, I pull out more tactical weaponry, for the point of agro control, replace damage gear for the point of survivability gear because I know the encounters and fights are going to last much longer. Yet in "stronger" groups I am capable of going straight out Blitz an be tossing more aside as the mob will just melt and the boss his time numbered in seconds instead of minutes.

    ... and as we stand at the gate to MA, ToD, LoB, Shroud... on a partly puged group. Then the guild chat fires up, the members... they're looking ... hmmm epic/elite/hard/norm ... what's the power here, if the killers can steamroll and not waste the mana/scrolls... then yes we'll walk in epic/elite, if not they'll decide upon a lesser difficulty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Standal View Post
    The spell pass went way too far. Arcanes had some issues and instead of making incremental improvements they decided to reduce SP requirements for damage spells and add boss DOTs. It was too much. Will the game be fun if all classes can crush all content like a WF sorc currently can?
    Any sorc is fine... is a class which gives up very little to counter and mitigate damage and maintains the top burst DPS in game doing so...

    (a while back in Axer's DPS challenge II the best melee DPS was within the two minute mark - with a healer strapped to it's back, for arcane a Sorc with an under 42 sec mark ... the melee required twenty-six heals, the sorc one scroll heal...

    The sorc's blue bar was nearly deplete at the end likewise the bard with the melee was left with 100sp ... I pondered over such for a while, you see was a fact the melee was only at 40% the efficientcy of the sorc even though the sorc was left with little in end the melee/bard combo took far more resources being SP/Scroll and time, Are no if's and's or but's about it all one was effort of two people... the sorc was alone - beat two classes - not one.)

    Last edited by Emili; 04-08-2012 at 02:25 PM.
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  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by eonfreon View Post
    Personally, all I really would like to see is some fast healing for all characters when Out of Combat.

    Slugging down all those pots is just slow. I wish there was a mechanism that when a character is Out of Combat that he could drink down 10 pots at once, just to speed things up.

    Don't know if it's possible but that would help out alot, IMO.
    Something I saw in another game that would probably work for this. It was a heal over time potion, slight delay but fast acting (IIRC it healed 2% of the characters total hps/second for 50 seconds), but the effect was broken by things like attacking, taking damage or other combat related activities. Worked pretty good for reducing down time without affecting combat.

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