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  1. #41
    Community Member Blackmoors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ainmosni View Post
    What is the name of your healer? i remember being in a pug -something- that went bad and said id reimburse pots but dont remember what the raid was or who the healers were.
    Ok now I understand what went wrong, you were the tank...
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  2. #42
    Community Member Kovalas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5chinoble View Post
    Wow maybe i should have aimed my post at the not so ideal VoD groups,

    In an ideal setup most raids are fine, and can work quite easily, but in the PUG LFM scene, its very rare to get the ideal setup, you will get people who have never run it before, and people who are level 18 first time, no GS, no epic items, frequently get 200hp rogues, 300hp monks, 400hp fighters, maybe i should have clarified my post to fit this

    Mana conservation, well put it this way, I wont say my mana conservation is perfect, but I was still at 75% SP while the other FvS was on a slither on their blue bar (I did at this point think its going to fail and i wont use pots, but its at this point the leader said pots will be reimbersed). about not raising the ones that keep dying, I learnt that a long time ago, i let the 2 that kept dying stay dead

    This post isnt aimed for the Guild/Private VoD groups, more the general PUG LFM's, and I have run many a pug VoD, on my bard, barb, Sorc, wizzy, FvS, i'm not sure if we're playing on the same server or even same game, but with over 50 VoD hards combined on all my toons (I usually stop doing VoD after i get the items i'm looking for), i can count on 1 hand where I've been in a PUG VoD (hard +) where the healer hasnt used a pot.

    We are all talking about Vision of Destruction on hard with a random pug group right ?

    I dont really class it as a bad experiance as we did complete it at the end (and i have had much worse VoDs), What i'm trying to say is, if your running a random PUG VoD hard, and you want healers to join your group, just help them out at the end so they in three days can run with you again ?
    Mate don't worry, I'm an experienced player, and I joined a very similar sounding VoD PUG on Hard just yesterday, apart from the main tank and the other cleric, the rest of the party was horrible, really horrible, couldnt even take down the trash, half my mana went on clearing said trash, and healing crappy melees while the cleric looked after the main tank, boss gets to 50% and i'm out of mana, no way I was going to scroll through that, so I drank down 5 pots I think, and basically the capable brute forced and completed.... dont hate on the gimpy melees, they will learn eventually....

    For me personally, nearly always my time is more imprtant than a few SP pots, I dont want to 'let them die', drop, restart group and try again!!! and for all the people flaming, I hope you not flaming behind a decent guild that walks into all 'older' raids and cake walks them, because everyone is geared/knows the deal?

    Surely you wouldnt be flaming Hero Divines of PUGland from you safety blanket (guild), if so, your pathetic and if everyone thought/acted the same, there would be NO PUG raids at all except BYOH VoDs! LMAO!

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  3. #43
    Community Member harold2560's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmoors View Post
    Ok now I understand what went wrong, you were the tank...
    +1 lol

  4. #44

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    Yes it is really different when you are running pug raids or not. In the days of joy, when the scrolls where dropping from dead mobs and epic quests fluorished with adventurers looking for them, I used to run echrono. Pug echrono were allways endurance runs which took more than 1 hour to finish. Last pug echrono I drank 31 pots at boss fight which took about 50 mins. (didnt need to drink any pot to get there) – really that much. When I joined ravensguard run (they missed just 2 healers) the whole raid took less then 25 mins and after boss fight I ended with more then 50% of my sp.

    So dont blame OP with his bad experience. Sometimes, it is really a strange experience to join pug raid

    Oh and I totally forgot – I received at least thank you from the leader, and he wanted to give me 3 pots (that was all he had) but no pots form other party members. they didnt even gave me the cloak shard lol

  5. #45
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Some people are willing to use their own resources to help towards a completion more than others are. It sounds like the OP is one of those people, and there's nothing wrong with that.


    When my cleric was in a raid or quest that was going bad, I wouldn't hesitate to use a pot or pots. Was it my fault that the raid was going south? Not usually. Could I have let the raid fail in order to "teach" the people who were screwing up a lesson in how to play, how to manage aggro, how to gear their character, etc...? Sure, I could have. But I generally chose not to.


    If there are a few new or simply less-skilled players in a raid or quest, and it turns out I need to use some SP pots in order to keep the raid going, I generally will. I want a completion just like everyone else. If the less-skilled players realize they screwed up and need to improve their play, that's great. If they remain clueless and keep screwing up, oh well... That's their responsibility, not mine. If they seem open to input I will give them a few hints about how they can improve, but that's it.

    I tend to believe that refusing to use resources in order to let the raid fail and thus "teach" the less-skilled players is pointless. The idiots who play like idiots are not going to "learn" anything from being in a failed raid. I always look at it more along the lines of "If I can keep the raid going despite the three idiots who keep screwing the pooch, the other players will likely appreciate that." Again, I have my limit, and no matter how much I want a completion I am not going to use dozens of pots in a single raid or quest. I also think I can gauge how likely a completion is, and I won't throw more pots at a hopeless cause.
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  6. #46
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobrien316 View Post
    Some people are willing to use their own resources to help towards a completion more than others are. It sounds like the OP is one of those people, and there's nothing wrong with that.


    When my cleric was in a raid or quest that was going bad, I wouldn't hesitate to use a pot or pots. Was it my fault that the raid was going south? Not usually. Could I have let the raid fail in order to "teach" the people who were screwing up a lesson in how to play, how to manage aggro, how to gear their character, etc...? Sure, I could have. But I generally chose not to.


    If there are a few new or simply less-skilled players in a raid or quest, and it turns out I need to use some SP pots in order to keep the raid going, I generally will. I want a completion just like everyone else. If the less-skilled players realize they screwed up and need to improve their play, that's great. If they remain clueless and keep screwing up, oh well... That's their responsibility, not mine. If they seem open to input I will give them a few hints about how they can improve, but that's it.

    I tend to believe that refusing to use resources in order to let the raid fail and thus "teach" the less-skilled players is pointless. The idiots who play like idiots are not going to "learn" anything from being in a failed raid. I always look at it more along the lines of "If I can keep the raid going despite the three idiots who keep screwing the pooch, the other players will likely appreciate that." Again, I have my limit, and no matter how much I want a completion I am not going to use dozens of pots in a single raid or quest. I also think I can gauge how likely a completion is, and I won't throw more pots at a hopeless cause.
    There's nothing wrong with spending your own resources if you want to complete, certainly....I personally only stopped using pots much (still use lots of heal scrolls, but those are relatively cheap) after a few times saving really bad runs...only to have no pots paid back (and occasionally with the worst thing, "I'll get you back after this raid"). If you want to use resources like that to save runs...you will have to accept that the vast majority of pugs will NOT repay your expenditures, even when they get to ridiculous amounts (~10 pots, btw, is around 200k plat on my server last time I checked...that is a VERY significant cost just for one raid).
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  7. #47
    Community Member Terebinthia's Avatar
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    I think there's some good advice in this thread. I don't PUG VOD on my divines unless I know the leader and know the tank is a good one (actually don't need anything from there on either of them so if I'm healing it's a favour to a friend ). I love love love AC tanks. If I'm presented with a WF barb, I wish them well and go do something else.

    15 pots as usual expenditure sounds like a lot to me, I'd work on being pickier about your groups. Don't be afraid to just say no and walk away. Think about the raid loot and whether it's really worth it to you - are you even interested in Omniescence and the pally sword? Only thing I grabbed on my FvS prior to completionist were the gloves and the bracers, and the bracers were mainly for levelling purposes (and the effect looks cool ).

    You can afford to be picky.

    I'm selective about TODs, too.
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  8. #48
    Community Member Monkey-Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    I actually think you set the bar a little high there.

    My goals when making a group:

    - Normal: First 12 as long as we have either a WF tank, an AC tank, a Pale Master tank. If we have none of those, a very experienced fleshy melee can fill in.
    - Hard: A 'good tank' (81+ AC counting all available raidbuffs, or an extraordinary Pale Master tank with Insightful Reflexes and Shield Mastery, or a no-AC stalwart fleshie that knows the raid well). DPSers and tank need DR breakers but they do not need to be good. Either any two people on CC, or one epic-ready wizard (36+ DC in enchant or 38+ in Necro or Conj, 24+ spellpen). Melees must understand cleave attacks and make a good effort to move out of Suulo's cleaves when he turns.
    - Elite: A 90+ AC tank with voice chat, two epic-ready CCers (or one that is epic DA ready - 27 spellpen, 39 enchant or 41 in another school), melees with high-quality DR breakers and most of all, good situational awareness.

    Divines really don't need much at all in this sort of group, as long as they understand not to use any spellpoints at all except when trash is damaging the raid (or in an emergency).
    I really don't think his to-hit is that high in VOD. 85 AC tanks get missed enough on elite they can easily be scrolled through it, even in Tower.

  9. #49
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey-Boy View Post
    I really don't think his to-hit is that high in VOD. 85 AC tanks get missed enough on elite they can easily be scrolled through it, even in Tower.
    The 90 is probably for when Suulo gets chain-happy, which reduces AC.
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  10. #50
    Community Member Spartywinz's Avatar
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    Default Oof

    I guess it really puts users resources in perspective, I for example dropped 1397 greater mnemonics to run a cleric life for past life and don't ever really think about drinking pots. I am a lazy healer, id rather drink pots and spam heal/BB whatever but I also despise playing cleric/fvs.

  11. #51
    Community Member MownDown's Avatar
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    a competent anything can solo heal a crappy pug without using any where near that many resources, have done it on my fvs with no pots used and i suck as a divine healer.....

  12. #52
    Community Member Adken's Avatar
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    Put a max pot usage. Let's say 5 (+bauble). That will be the amount that will come out of your pocket,if you drink the 5 pots and need more, just let the group wipe. Let them know that and they will reimburse you or won't take you in the group. You get either a completion without 1 bazillion pots or avoid to join a group that will drain your resources.

    If i'm new to a quest, i never expect anyone to give me back any pot tho, and i don't care how many i have to drink as long as it's a reasonable amount (less than 12 maybe).
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinruko View Post
    I believe you missed my above post. When someone can solo VoD on hard on a melee toon (Monk) I would hope a group of twelve can do it with minimal resource consumption.
    I'm sorry but that's an inappropriate comparison. It's a little like saying "If the university professor with
    10 years of experience can solve the problem in 10 minutes I would expect that 12 people with high
    school diplomas can get it done in an hour."

    The fact that some extremely talented people that have super well built and geared toons and play
    immensely well can accomplish something has very little effect on how the average or below average pug will
    do.

    I do agree though that if you're using 15 pots something is going wrong. Make sure to check your tanks heal amp
    and preferably AC. Everyone else needs to be on the back, casters need to keep cloudkill up on suulu and
    webs/balls on devils.

    Did you have tank assigned to one healer party to other? You should be able to scroll heal+capstone almost
    exclusively if you have a good tank. For a mediocre on the occasional heal might be necessary. If the tank has
    no AC consider buying 100+ remove curse pots and clicking curse pot, heal scroll/spell
    in succession to make sure you're not wasting that heal. I have lately found this more efficient then
    having a different person remove curses just due to lag and player delays.

    If you have suulu turning make sure to explain to people they need to drop their hate. I hate few things as
    much as the no ac/reflex fighter that has decided to make a 10/20% incite dragontouched and then wears it
    when not tanking (Yes I have seen this). If people are still pulling consider whether it's easier to have a worse
    tank or to just reduce dps output by having everyone turn off PA or slow down dps in other ways.

    Most importantly learn to call it. If the healers are at 10-20% mana before half time, just say I'm sorry guys
    this isn't working and politely explain why you are unwilling to chug pots for a group that's apparently either
    hugely under prepared or incapable of following instructions.

    Just my 2 cp.
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  14. #54
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    Sigh...

    I take a week off and I miss an awesome VoD pug. You have no idea how sad it makes me that I missed a run like this.

    True, I usually do guild/channel runs, but I love pugging VoD on hard or elite. It's one of the few things that's still fun for me in this game. Sure it's an "easy" raid, but in a true pug there's no guarantee of success, and that makes it an enjoyable experience. One of the best parts is seeing how many people die on the way down, even when I clear the way and complete the "puzzle" myself.

  15. #55
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey-Boy View Post
    I really don't think his to-hit is that high in VOD. 85 AC tanks get missed enough on elite they can easily be scrolled through it, even in Tower.
    Suulo is (since U11) a lot tougher in VOD than he is in TOD.

    Elite TOD Suulo hits for 60ish IIRC, and DBFs/Chain Lightnings for 100.
    Elite VOD Suulo hits for 110ish and his spells for 250.

    In TOD, incoming damage from Suulo is low enough that yeah 85 AC and scrolls is fine. But in VOD you want almost the same stats as you would on a Horoth tank on the same difficulty (except that you don't need the HP buffer for Disintegrate).

    I've done elite VOD at 87 AC and 2 scroll healers could not keep up with the tank damage without using SP heals.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5chinoble View Post
    i can count on 1 hand where I've been in a PUG VoD (hard +) where the healer hasnt used a pot.
    you must play with very bad people too often

    IMO players need to have a skill when they join a raid, something like spiderman and the danger awareness, I usually smell tragedy on groups when I join them

    somebody told you to myddo the tank, that is extremely important, also is to have a fast look at the caster/s, I don't run much vod lately with my healer, but except on some notsoperfect for elite makeups I have never used a pot, and my fvs is quite weak ( 1st life, 380 hp's 2500 mana )

  17. #57
    Community Member mobrien316's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garlor View Post
    you must play with very bad people too often

    IMO players need to have a skill when they join a raid, something like spiderman and the danger awareness, I usually smell tragedy on groups when I join them

    somebody told you to myddo the tank, that is extremely important, also is to have a fast look at the caster/s, I don't run much vod lately with my healer, but except on some notsoperfect for elite makeups I have never used a pot, and my fvs is quite weak ( 1st life, 380 hp's 2500 mana )
    It always cracks me up when people use MyDDO as though it is likely to contain accurate information.


    If you look up my current character, it has two listings of him, one a deleted past life and the other his first life at level 10. Aside from being 29 levels behind where he actually is, and not listing a single piece of gear he currently uses, and listing him as the wrong character class, the only information you can find on him via MyDDO is how to spell his name.

    If you are looking for a tank for a certain raid, isn't it better to just ask people if they can tank? If someone says, "What's a tank?", does it really matter what their MyDDO indicates? Likewise, if someone responds with, "Yeah, I can tank VoD. My Intimidate is 88, I have 109 AC and 1035 hit points, and I have +100% hate gen" are you really going to boot them if MyDDO indicates they are armed with a Mace of Smiting because that was the last thing they had equipped when they beat up the training dummy before logging off?
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinruko View Post
    If you drink sp pots while running VoD you're doing it wrong...
    This sort of post isn't terribly helpful. I for one cringe every time I read on this forum "if you need to <xxx>, you're doing it wrong" -- it sounds like smug elitism.

    Oh really? What exactly is "doing it right?" For example, I've solo-healed shroud many times with no pots, and I had one run as one of two healers when I used half a dozen. It would be easy to say (and it has been said here many times), "If you need pots to heal shroud, you're doing it wrong". Of course, "doing it wrong" in that case merely consisted of hooking up with the wrong party. It had nothing to do with SP management.

    You want to be helpful? Give some advice on how to do it RIGHT. And if you don't know, don't bother with an uninformative link about how some uber player with an uber build soloed the quest. Congratulations to him! But that is so atypical that it contributes NOTHING in terms of advice on how to heal a group in there.

    In short, all a post like the above does is to tell the OP he's doing something wrong, and that much more uber players exist. It does nothing to help.

    So please, the next time someone gets the urge that oft-repeated line "if you're XXX, you're doing it wrong", stop and consider adding some constructive advice on how to do it RIGHT.

  19. #59
    Community Member sweez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justagame View Post
    Of course, "doing it wrong" in that case merely consisted of hooking up with the wrong party.
    Hooking up with the wrong party = doing it wrong

    You want to be helpful? Give some advice on how to do it RIGHT.
    Treat yourself better by being pickier~
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  20. #60
    Community Member Chette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pape_27 View Post
    Spoken like someone who hasnt pugged in a very long
    No, spoken by somebody who pugs quite a lot actually...
    Spoken by somebody who can't stand seeing people coast by because others pick up the slack for them.

    I play four different healers, and I pug on them regularly. If I get into a group, and it's clearly failtastic, I do my best to try and explain to them what they're doing wrong. I use my knowledge, and my instructions, to try and make them better players. I don't just waste my SP and my resources, because that won't make them any better. All it will do is reinforce into them the idea that they are good players, because once again, somebody else was willing to make up for their incompetence.

    I enjoy pugging, particularly if I can bring along a few people I know to be competent, in the hopes that it will teach others to be better players.

    But I'm not going to chug potions to make them feel good about themselves and get them free loot. That doesn't help anybody and it is actively BAD for our server community.
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