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  1. #1
    Community Member Urjak's Avatar
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    Default Epic Abishai Set Kinda Useless :(

    (Wasn't sure whether to put this thread here of Sorc forum ... since I guess many people will be interested in this I put it here, so more people can see it)

    Okay so yesterday I finished my first 3 piece epic Abishai set on my Air Savant and I was thinking "OMG wow finally ... now my chain lightning will rock even more ... AWESOME!!!!!" ... So went to DD (hard) to do some Eardweller farming ... after a few casts I noticed the numbers seemed a bit off ... switched the set on and off several times and there seemed to be no difference, but well we all know that "just a feeling that something is way off" is not enough. Thus I did some serious testing:

    Test conditions:
    .) Each specific combination was tested exactly 100 times (when I got more than 100 I ignored the numbers past 100)
    .) I did the testing in normal Irestone Inlet, simply because there are plenty of mobs that are not resistant to elec or cold and the mobs are so easy (and there are enough "safe spots"), so it was no problem to stop after each ~20 kills to write down all numbers from the combat log (the combat log has a very small size ... if you kill too many mobs at once numbers will get lost). Additionally since every mob in there dies from one cast, this gave me the nice feature that I could control if I oversaw any numbers by comparing the amount of damage numbers I copied out and the number of kills.
    .) The test was done on a level 20 first life sorc (air savant)
    .) Since Maximize and Empower blow the numbers up even more - creating more variance - I turned both off for all the tests => only active metamagic was Heighten
    .) My sorc has fully maxed out elec and cold lines
    .) I always used superior VIII clickies (ToD belts)

    Tested spells:
    1.) Chainlightning: No ToD set, no Abishai set, Major Lore, Superior Spark VIII
    2.) Chainlightning: Air ToD set, no Abishai set, Major Lore, Superior Spark VIII
    3.) Chainlightning: Air ToD set, 3 piece Abishai set, Major Lore, Superior Spark VIII
    4.) Polar Ray: Air ToD set, 3 piece Abishai set, Major Lore, Superior Freeze VIII
    5.) Eladars: Air Tod set, 3 piece Abishai set, Major Lore, Superior Spark VIII

    For the calculation of the expected damage values I used the following (widely as correct accepted) formular:
    Min damage = (MIN_OF(CL, Max_CL) * MIN_DAMAGE_PER_CL + LOWEST_POSSIBLE_FIXED_DAMAGE) * 2,25 * 1,2
    Max damage = (MIN_OF(CL, Max_CL) * MAX_DAMAGE_PER_CL + HIGHEST_POSSIBLE_FIXED_DAMAGE) * 2,25 * 1,2
    Average damage = (Min_damage + Max_damage) / 2

    In the following calculation you will notice that the actual min/max values will be far higher/lower than the calculated ones. This is very simply due to the reason that the more dice are rolled, the more average the result will be. The exception to this is Eladars, since it only uses one dice.

    Also notice I rounded all calculated results to one decimal. DPS in the following calc means average damage per hit target including target mobs saving 5% of the time for halve damage and including crits.

    1.) Chainlightning: No ToD set, no Abishai set, Major Lore, Superior Spark VIII
    Expected stats: CL 26, max CL: infinity
    Expected damage: 280,8 to 421,2, average: 351
    Expected crit damage: 772,2 to 1158,3, average: 965,3
    Expected dps: 452,8
    Actual damage: 283 to 329, average: 310,7 => ~ -11,5% off
    Actual crit damage: 801 to 905, average: 854,2 => ~ -11,5% off
    Actual dps: 373,5 => ~ -17,5% off

    While I know a sample size of 100 is far from perfect, it still holds a lot of value and errors ranging from 11,5% to 17,5% simply sow that there is something wrong. After a lot of trying around and diverse theories I don't want to delve into here, I came to the conclusion that most probably chainlightning is capped at CL 20. As an Air Savant I have a default CL 26 and +3 max CL on all elec spells. Thus I redid the expected calcs for CL 23:

    Most probable stats: CL 26, max CL: 23 (20 + 3 Savant)
    Most probable damage: 248,4 to 372,6, average: 310,5 => ~0,06% off
    Most probable crit damage: 683,1 to 1024,7, average: 853,9 => ~0,03% off
    Most probable dps: 440,5 => ~ -6,75% off

    As we can see now: The assumption of chainlightning having CL 20 and Savant Pre/Sorc capstone/... working correctly seems to be right (0,03% to 0,06% error is actually incredibly good for a 100 sample size). Some might now wonder why the dps still shows an 6,75% error ... this is simply due to having few crits during those 100 casts ... 100 hit opponents with max elec lines plus major lore should produce ~18 crits ... in this run I only critted 13 times => thus the dps is off ... I don't want to delve too deeply into statistics here ... just let me assure you that a sample size of 100 is okay to check damage and crit values, but its simply not enough to test crit-proc rates. Also during the following tests I then got slightly more than those 18 crits ... it simply evens out over a larger sample size.

    Since we can now assume chainlightning having a max CL of 20, I used this for the new expected damage/crits calculations.

    2.) Chainlightning: Air ToD set, no Abishai set, Major Lore, Superior Spark VIII
    "Newly" expected stats: CL 26, max CL 25
    "Newly" expected damage: 270 to 405, average: 337,5
    "Newly" expected crit damage: 742,5 to 1113,8, average: 928,1
    "Newly" expected dps: 435,4
    Actual damage: 302 to 359, average: 335,7 => ~ -0,54% off
    Actual crit damage: 898 to 1002, average: 943,8 => ~1,69% off
    Actual dps: 440,2 => ~1,1% off

    As we can see, the errors aren't as small as in 1.) but still low enough to suggest our assumption was correct.

    3.) Chainlightning: Air ToD set, 3 piece Abishai set, Major Lore, Superior Spark VIII
    "Newly" expected stats: CL29, max CL 25 => same expected damage/crit damage as in 2.)
    Actual damage: 313 to 359, average: 338,1 => 0,19% off
    Actual crit damage: 883 to 1002, average: 937,5 => 1,01% off
    Actual dps: 432,3 => ~ -0,7% off

    Seems our assumption still stands => we can combine test results of 2.) and 3.) to form a larger sample size of 200 => errors decrease to -0,35%/-0,68%/0,4% which is pretty good

    4.) Polar Ray: Air ToD set, 3 piece Abishai set, Major Lore, Superior Freeze VIII
    Expected stats: CL 23, max CL 25
    Expected damage: 248,4 to 372,6, average: 310,5
    Expected crit damage: 683,1 to 1024,7, average: 853,9
    Expected dps: 408,3
    Actual damage: 288 to 326, average: 311,1 => ~0,2% off
    Actual crit damage: 816 to 876, average: 845,1 => ~ -1,02% off
    Actual dps: 424,4 => ~3,94% off

    While a non-perfect match, those numbers still suggest that everything is working as expected for polar ray .. dps a bit off since i critted more than averagely

    5.) Eladars: Air Tod set, 3 piece Abishai set, Major Lore, Superior Spark VIII
    This one works a bit differently. Since there is only one d6 dice rolled, there should also be only 6 possible different damage numbers popping up. I must admit here that I used a smaller sample size for this spell ... but i got all 6 different values: 56, 59, 62, 64, 67, 70 ... just as expected ... though those 6 numbers were smaller than expected:

    Expected stats: CL 29, max CL: infinity
    Expected damage: 81 to 94,5, average: 87,8
    Expected crit damage: 222,8 to 259,9, average: 241,3
    Expected dps: 120
    Actual damage: 56 to 70, average: 62,9 => -28,33% off
    Actual crit damage: 155 to 185, average: 172,7 => -28,45% off
    Actual dps: 78,6 => ~ -34,52% off

    These numbers (even for a smaller sample size) strongly show that there is something waayyyyyy off. After some trial and error, I assumed max CL 15 for Eladars:

    "Newly" expected damage: 56,7 to 70,2, average: 63,5 => ~ -0,88% off
    "Newly" expected crit damage: 155,9 to 193, average: 174,5 => ~ -1,04% off
    "Newly" expected dps: 83,4 => ~ -5,83% off

    This very closely matches the numbers from the test. Only dps seems a bit off, but once again i critted less than average, and due to smaller sample size this part of the test is especially prone to inaccuratenesses.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Summary:
    Some new CL caps have been tested and confirmed:
    Chainlightning: Max CL 20
    Eladars Electric Surge: Max CL 15

    Since Niacs Biting Cold is basically the very same as Eladars I guess it has the same level cap of 15, although i havent tested it yet.

    Also Polar rays max CL being at least 23 has been confirmed (Description says 25)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Conclusion:
    With these new test results (assuming that other spell descriptions are correct) there are only two damage dealing arcane spells that have a maximum CL higher than 20:

    Black Dragon Bolt [Conjuration]: 25
    Polar Ray [Evocation]: 26

    Only one of them is an evocation and thus affected by the 3 piece Abishai set (and from what I read on the forums the 5 piece set doesn't grant a +3 CL bonus to conjuration and instead gives a +3 bonus to DC, can't test that myself since I don't have the 5 piece set): Polar Ray ... an ice spell.

    So lets look at the usefulness of 3 piece epic Abishai set for savants:
    Air Savant: Raises Polar Ray dps (max+emp+capstone+superior lore+superior clickie) from ~831 to ~955
    Earth Savant: same
    Fire Savant: Raises Polar Ray dps from ~582 to ~706 ... although how many fire savants pick up polar ray?^^
    Water Savant: Raises Polar Ray dps (same as the others + ToD set) from ~1080 to ~1205

    From what I read so far the 3 piece epic set should stack with arcane augmentation IX (epic Staff of Arcane Power/T3 Alchemical) ... in that case it would have the following effects:

    Air/Earth Savant: Raises Polar Ray dps from ~914 to ~1038
    Fire Savant: Raises Polar Ray dps from ~665 to ~789
    Water Savant: Raises Polar Ray dps from ~1163 to ~1246

    I guess in the end it all comes down to how much you use Polar Ray. I for one use it quite rarely, since it is single target spell and for boss fights DOTs + SLAs are more sp efficient.

    Well thanks for the read and I hope I could help some other people with their gear layout planning with this ... all in all the set still got its uses, especially since part of it are the helmet and cloak (+7 Cha, +7 Con, +5 Resists) and all of them have sweet slots ... but I m not sure anymore if I would have put that much effort in it, if I had known that the DOTs and chainlightning have low max CLs when their description would not indicate anything like that =/
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  2. #2
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    may spells have a cap, like BB has a limit of lvl 15 caster, same applies to many lightning spells

  3. #3
    Community Member Urjak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garlor View Post
    may spells have a cap, like BB has a limit of lvl 15 caster, same applies to many lightning spells
    the point is that chainlightning, eladars and niacs don't state that they have max caster levels ... thus many players (myself included) assumed that they have none ... testing showed now that they have a max caster level ... and a quite low one too ... thus reducing the usefulness of the epic Abishai set drastically
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  4. #4
    Community Member Hikup's Avatar
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    Good testing, bad devs.

  5. #5
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    Wow. Thanks for the testing.

    But that's REALLY weak. What in the world is the point of an Abishai set, at this point?

    I, too, thought Chain Lightning and the 2 DoTs had not CL cap. Even put a 5-piece set together for a sorc. Pretty annoyed to find out it'll only work for...Polar Ray.

    What's even worse: to the OP, your Air Savant was finding his Eladar's capped at CL 15? Shouldn't it be 18, since you're an Air Savant? You should test Niac's, make sure it's not capped at CL 12...

    To the Devs: either change spells that don't have an explicit CL cap so that they either A) have no CL cap, or B) make their CL cap explicit in their description. And if you go with B, perhaps the bonuses on Savants should be reconsidered: +6 caster level but only +3 to max CL doesn't really mean much of anything (might as well be +3 CL and +3 max CL, since there are only 2 spells, now, with a higher CL than 20), and the values should be flipped, so that Savant gives +3 caster level and +6 to max caster level (making low level spells better, and giving epic items that boost CL some kind of use...).
    Last edited by waterboytkd; 03-14-2012 at 08:45 PM.

  6. #6
    Community Member Kourier's Avatar
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    Did they change the spell description? I know that the caster level cap is 15 from a long time ago and swore that it was in the spell description at one point, but on the wiki that cap is no longer mentioned in the description. That's very peculiar and definitely something to work on (in addition to the lack of spell numerals... What's up with that!?).

  7. #7
    Community Member Urjak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterboytkd View Post
    Wow. Thanks for the testing.

    But that's REALLY weak. What in the world is the point of an Abishai set, at this point?

    I, too, thought Chain Lightning and the 2 DoTs had not CL cap. Even put a 5-piece set together for a sorc. Pretty annoyed to find out it'll only work for...Polar Ray.

    What's even worse: to the OP, your Air Savant was finding his Eladar's capped at CL 15? Shouldn't it be 18, since you're an Air Savant? You should test Niac's, make sure it's not capped at CL 12...

    To the Devs: either change spells that don't have an explicit CL cap so that they either A) have no CL cap, or B) make their CL cap explicit in their description. And if you go with B, perhaps the bonuses on Savants should be reconsidered: +6 caster level but only +3 to max CL doesn't really mean much of anything (might as well be +3 CL and +3 max CL, since there are only 2 spells, now, with a higher CL than 20), and the values should be flipped, so that Savant gives +3 caster level and +6 to max caster level (making low level spells better, and giving epic items that boost CL some kind of use...).
    actually in my testing i confirmed that FOR MY air savant eladars is cast at CL 20 ... minus 3 savant minus 2 tod set means the "normal" max caster level of eladars is 15 which sucks badly
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  8. #8
    Community Member NaturalHazard's Avatar
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    Well my ranger still loves his epic abishai set, +3 str +3 ac +3 con with a +7 con item still pretty much rocks with all those epic slots and +6 str and shocking blow on the gloves.

    But if I make a sorc heh I wont be wasting my spare set I got waiting on that toon then I guess.

  9. #9
    Community Member Zonixx's Avatar
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    Wow I was under the impression Chain Lightning had no max cast level.

    This is indeed dissapointing news for my Air Savant.
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  10. #10
    Community Member decease's Avatar
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    just be patient.. with epic been release am sure they will raise the max cl on most spell..

  11. #11
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    I don't think that it would increase the damage on polar ray for an ice savant seeing as being an ice savant takes you to caster level 26 already, as in the set bonus for tod does nothing as well as the three piece abashia set does nothing for a water savant (I believe)

  12. #12
    Community Member redspecter23's Avatar
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    Every spell tooltip should list the max caster level for the spell and it would be nice if it listed the current modified level you cast it at. So simple, yet so not available. Turbine, information is key. It ain't just a noob quest in the harbor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
    Every spell tooltip should list the max caster level for the spell and it would be nice if it listed the current modified level you cast it at. So simple, yet so not available. Turbine, information is key. It ain't just a noob quest in the harbor.
    LOL, the spell tool tips are still totally borked, they keep breaking aiming on things, they do **** like add a save to wall of fire and then not allow heighten to work on it. And now mobs are getting broken too, fire immune hill giants, undead getting healed by positive energy, the skeleton in the DQ1 pit healed by electrical, yellow named mobs immune to power word kill or phantasmal killer but no death block etc. Getting proper caster level on things is never ever ever going to happen. Ever.

  14. #14
    Community Member Hinedhel's Avatar
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    Well, if the Abi set is useless, I'll gladly help you get rid of any Abi scrolls you might have stashed in Sarlona... Particularly that elusive Envenomed Cloak scroll...

  15. #15
    Community Member Blackmoors's Avatar
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    Well, I dont know were you got your info mate but almost all spells have a max caster level:

    :: Chain lightning (max level 20)
    :: Divine Punishment (max level 20)
    :: Eladar's Electric Surge (max level 15)
    :: Blade Barrier (max level 15)
    :: Polar Ray (max level 25)
    :: Niac's Biting Cold (max level 15)

    As a Savant III, you get +3 on the caster level of the SPELL and +6 to YOUR caster level. The ToD set gives +2 to SPELL and Abishai set gives +3 to YOUR caster level. What this means is that (for instance) a Water Savant III with both sets will have +5 on his cold/water spells and +6 on his casting level for this spells (+9 if they are both cold and evocation assuming both sets stack). In practical terms:

    :: Niac's Biting Cold (max level 15) -> (max level 20)
    :: Polar Ray (max level 25) -> (max level 29)

    Hope that explains a bit
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmoors View Post
    Well, I dont know were you got your info mate but almost all spells have a max caster level:

    :: Chain lightning (max level 20)
    :: Divine Punishment (max level 20)
    :: Eladar's Electric Surge (max level 15)
    :: Blade Barrier (max level 15)
    :: Polar Ray (max level 25)
    :: Niac's Biting Cold (max level 15)
    ..and I wonder where you got your info from .. Just guessing? From the tooltips in game? Or from the wiki?

    I think the Max Level info for the dots on the wiki was added only recently. (Probably by the OP after he made this thread?)

  17. #17
    Community Member Blackmoors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupTyr View Post
    ..and I wonder where you got your info from .. Just guessing? From the tooltips in game? Or from the wiki?

    I think the Max Level info for the dots on the wiki was added only recently. (Probably by the OP after he made this thread?)
    No, I got it from casting the spell and measuring the dmg, hence the fact I stated almost every spell and not ALL spells, since there are a few I haven't tested or couldn't test thoroughly - for instance I think DP is lvl20 but it could be higher, I just cant confirm that since my FvS doesn't have Abishai set to see if it goes up to lvl23 or stays at lvl20. I may be wrong or my testing may be flawed thou so just log on and test yourself
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  18. #18
    Community Member CountHenri's Avatar
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    Well yes and no...

    Not long finished putting together the epic 5 piece set for my Sorc...

    Thing is he's an Earth Savant and those spells are Conj rather than Evo...

    As an added bonus extra sticky webs...

    He was using the eDiabolists robe for that and now its redundant...

    As an aside any suggestions what to replace the robe with? At this point a crafted large slot Lifeshield is looking good...
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  19. #19
    Community Member Kayla93's Avatar
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    Well.... honestly I dont find abishai set usefull for casters. For melees yes. For casters I dont find this 5 set bonus to be worth 5 slots.
    Not bad, but also not fabulous.

    Just as I think red dragon scale is practically useless for most builds and classes, and there are a lot better and cheaper armors... But people still do these to look cool xD.
    Well Im more than happy to sell them FRDSes - if they pay me a lot just to look cool im going for it.
    I finds epic red dragon scale only usefll for casters who use fire a lot (and not a lot poeple do that cause theres a lot immune mobs).
    So well...

  20. #20
    2015 DDO Players Council Ironforge_Clan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CountHenri View Post
    He was using the eDiabolists robe for that and now its redundant...

    As an aside any suggestions what to replace the robe with? At this point a crafted large slot Lifeshield is looking good...
    I went with DT and farmed for runes that would/could be beneficial. Healing Amp, Greater False Life, and Spell Pen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayla93 View Post
    Well.... honestly I dont find abishai set usefull for casters. For melees yes. For casters I dont find this 5 set bonus to be worth 5 slots.
    Not bad, but also not fabulous.
    I tend to disagree. +6/+7 stat bonuses, an insane number of epic slots, permanent 30 point resists for fire, acid, cold, and electric, +3 Str, +3 Con, and +3 Conjuation DC for my earth savant rock!
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