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  1. #61
    Community Member In_Like_Flynn's Avatar
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    The troll has stepped out, but its legacy lives on.
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  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak View Post
    Just putting the numbers out here for ya.....

    50% base
    15% healers friend 1
    10% DT
    10% ship buff
    20% ToD ring
    30% Epic Gloves of the Claw
    --------------------
    135% total
    It doesn't quite work like that. Healers friend is a direct additive to the base healing amount, but the rest stacks multiplicatively.

    I.E With Healers Friend 1 and the mods you mentioned:

    0.65 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.3 = 122%, truncated.

    Edit: Beaten to the punch, but oh well its there as info
    The Theorybuild Author
    Quote Originally Posted by twinstronglord View Post
    Up to this point we've all been beating around the bush. Lolth has a very small box in which you can hit her.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey-Boy View Post
    Have you actually healed a WF Barb in Elite ToD since U11?
    Not sure what your point is ?

    Healing pre or post U11 doesn't really matter. WF melees have always been PITA.
    The only reason reason WF tanks even had their glory days pre HOrc was damage and HP.

    Anyone remember healing TOD WF Tanks when it first came out...it was heal spell, heal scroll...repeat as fast
    as possible...oh **** still low on HP...mass heal, heal spell, heal scroll until your fingers were numb.

    For you people running healing amp numbers...it doesn't matter.
    Assume the max healing possible on WF melee = still sucks = always better options.

    Max Heal amp DOS III WF Tank will get you about 210 or so on a heal scroll. That simply does not cut it.
    Last edited by DragonMageT; 03-09-2012 at 10:40 AM.

  4. #64
    Community Member Monkey-Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonMageT View Post
    Not sure what you point is ?

    Healing pre or post U11 doesn't really matter. WF melees have always been PITA.
    The only reason reason WF tanks even had their glory days pre HOrc was damage and HP.

    Anyone remember healing TOD WF Tanks when it first came out...it was heal spell, heal scroll...repeat as fast
    as possible...oh **** still low on HP...mass heal, heal spell, heal scroll until your fingers were numb.

    For you people running healing amp numbers...it doesn't matter.
    Assume the max healing possible on WF melee = still sucks = always better options.

    Max Heal amp DOS III WF Tank will get you about 210 or so on a heal scroll. That simply does not cut it.
    Not disagreeing . . . I've always been of the mind that barbarians, particularly WF, were not the best tanks. But before the U11 changes (which were nerfed a little in U12) it was at least possible.

    I've heard of max healing-amp humans still being possible, I just haven't seen an attempt on this above normal that didn't lead to a DING.

  5. #65

    Cool sure it's a necro thread but meh

    I tank elite ToD quite often on my Koopa (Warforged) tank quite often and generally the healers get bored. I guess maybe there are cheap knock off Koopa tanks out there that give the superior Koopa race a bad reputation.

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  6. #66
    Community Member Monkey-Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrtigo View Post
    I tank elite ToD quite often on my Koopa (Warforged) tank quite often and generally the healers get bored. I guess maybe there are cheap knock off Koopa tanks out there that give the superior Koopa race a bad reputation.
    But he's an AC tank, right? We're talking about barbarians.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey-Boy View Post
    But he's an AC tank, right? We're talking about barbarians.
    Yes, he would be an AC tank, Barbarians could be AC tanks as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrtigo View Post
    I tank elite ToD quite often on my Koopa (Warforged) tank quite often and generally the healers get bored. I guess maybe there are cheap knock off Koopa tanks out there that give the superior Koopa race a bad reputation.
    Take that tank into an ELOB...you don't really have to...I know how it will end up

  8. #68
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    What I really don't get is Sirgog's stance on this.

    It is OBVIOUS that Warforge win EVERY TIME in the "same build" scenario given by the OP.

    The same build is a Soul Survivor, right? I mean, who builds melee's that aren't soul survivors anymore?

  9. #69
    Community Member WruntJunior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey-Boy View Post
    But he's an AC tank, right? We're talking about barbarians.
    "Barbarian" and "tank" shouldn't be used together....with how raid bosses are now, a class that HAS to significantly damage itself to hold aggro is by far the worst tank.

    Barbarians are DPS no matter what way you turn it. :P (Please, people, stop trying to make healers heal barbarian "tanks" through raid boss fights....unless you intend to repay each and every mana pot...there may be a few capable barb tanks, but those are the extremely rare exception!)
    Eternal Infinity: Wruntjunior ~ DI Sorc // Youngwrunt ~ Survivalist Paladin // Wruntarrow ~ Monkcher // Wruntsonmonk ~ Wis-Based Monk

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonMageT View Post
    Yes, he would be an AC tank, Barbarians could be AC tanks as well.



    Take that tank into an ELOB...you don't really have to...I know how it will end up
    I do tank Elob on my tank and i have the intimidate for him.

    I will agree the other sediment that barbarians are not tanks they're just DPS that you happen to heal though getting the snot beat out of them by bosses.


    A tank is someone who does that but has mitigation to the damage their taking above and beyond the normal dps'er

    Keeper of Keenbean's Heart

  11. #71
    Community Member ainmosni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonMageT View Post
    Not sure what your point is ?

    Healing pre or post U11 doesn't really matter. WF melees have always been PITA.
    The only reason reason WF tanks even had their glory days pre HOrc was damage and HP.

    Anyone remember healing TOD WF Tanks when it first came out...it was heal spell, heal scroll...repeat as fast
    as possible...oh **** still low on HP...mass heal, heal spell, heal scroll until your fingers were numb.

    For you people running healing amp numbers...it doesn't matter.
    Assume the max healing possible on WF melee = still sucks = always better options.

    Max Heal amp DOS III WF Tank will get you about 210 or so on a heal scroll. That simply does not cut it.
    the point was, was a pain in the ass pre u11 but now that boss mobs have increased fortification and twice the hitpoints, and hit harder than they did before, the healer's job is multiplicatively harder. even healing a HUMAN well geared barbarian for elite horoth makes my stomach turn on my healer, but if i joined an elite tower and asked who the tank was and tehy pointed to the WF barbarian, i'd laugh and ask again, and if i got the same answer i'd drop group.
    Soturi . Ghallanda Rerolled
    [7/18/2012 12:22:24 AM] D. H.: i mean, i'm not as experienced as, say, a vegas hooker, but i can confidently say that you're a lot more aggressive than like 90% of the guys i've been with.

  12. #72
    Community Member ainmosni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonMageT View Post
    Yes, he would be an AC tank, Barbarians could be AC tanks as well.


    Yes, a 12 barbarian/8 stalwart with monk dilletante and every AC item in the game could probably get a meaningful AC for tanking some raids, maybe.

    but speaking from a logical standpoint, barbarians absolutely are not AC tanks. they take penalties to AC when they rage, a barbarian who doesnt rage has neither the hitpoints nor the dps to hold aggro.
    Soturi . Ghallanda Rerolled
    [7/18/2012 12:22:24 AM] D. H.: i mean, i'm not as experienced as, say, a vegas hooker, but i can confidently say that you're a lot more aggressive than like 90% of the guys i've been with.

  13. #73
    Community Member ainmosni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonMageT View Post



    Take that tank into an ELOB...you don't really have to...I know how it will end up
    ive healed koopa tanking in an elob before. it wasnt that bad. damage mitigation, healing amp gear, and experience go a long way.

    your average warforged barbarian has a max of one of those three pre-requisites.
    Soturi . Ghallanda Rerolled
    [7/18/2012 12:22:24 AM] D. H.: i mean, i'm not as experienced as, say, a vegas hooker, but i can confidently say that you're a lot more aggressive than like 90% of the guys i've been with.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ainmosni View Post
    ive healed koopa tanking in an elob before. it wasnt that bad. damage mitigation, healing amp gear, and experience go a long way.

    your average warforged barbarian has a max of one of those three pre-requisites.
    I find your choice of words interesting..."it wasn't that bad"

    Which implies..your sugar coating the matter

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by ainmosni View Post
    but speaking from a logical standpoint, barbarians absolutely are not AC tanks. they take penalties to AC when they rage, a barbarian who doesnt rage has neither the hitpoints nor the dps to hold aggro.
    Agree, I was just pointing out that they "could be" especially on norm/hard and maybe elite.
    You don't have to rage, you could have Intim.

    And speaking from a logical standpoint...anything but a WF makes a better tank / melee given same build.

  16. #76
    Community Member ainmosni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonMageT View Post
    I find your choice of words interesting..."it wasn't that bad"

    Which implies..your sugar coating the matter
    that's not sugar coating, that's not sarcasm, that's the truth. healing koopa was not bad. but koopa's warforged tank =/= the average wf tank.
    Soturi . Ghallanda Rerolled
    [7/18/2012 12:22:24 AM] D. H.: i mean, i'm not as experienced as, say, a vegas hooker, but i can confidently say that you're a lot more aggressive than like 90% of the guys i've been with.

  17. #77
    Community Member Caliban's Avatar
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    Meh, I just don't buy into the "healing AMP is the most important factor in a tank" argument that some people seem to be pushing.

    Yes, it's good to have, and yes it makes things easier on the healer. But if the tank is well built for damage mitigation, they can be perfectly viable even if they don't get healed as much as the uber healing amp guy, because they won't NEED as much healing as the uber healing amp guy.

    WF can be perfectly viable tanks, just takes a little more work in certain areas. In return, you get a host of immunities, which makes leveling and soloing so much more convenient. It also means you don't have to spend gear, potions, or epic augementation slots on defending against poison/disease/deathward/underwater action/exhaustion, freeing you up to use a wider variety of gear and still be effective. Also, casters don't need to spend SP on protecting you from or removing those conditions.

    And a side benefit is you can be healed by arcane casters, which lessens the burden on the regular healers if you are off-tank instead of main tank, or in a group that simply doesn't have a healer.

    I've had to take over tanking more than once on my WF monk after the fleshie with all the healing amp fricken DIED because he didn't have any effective damage mitigation and the healers was slow with one heal.

    I can easily believe that once you get all the proper end-game gear and are dripping with epics, that it's more effective to be a fleshie for the increased healing amp and potential AC/DPS increase, but until then a well built WF is just as effective as a well built fleshie for 99% of the content in the game. And better than a fleshie at lower levels, which some of us still play.

    The game is more than just Epic LOB.

  18. #78
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    truthfully, the vast majority of people who think they are tanks suck at tanking. of course, the vast majority of those people also think that all you need in order to be a tank is to be a fighter or barbarian (or paladin) and you're good to go, with absolutely no further requirements.

    you can make almost any character into a tank (or into a good DPS melee, for that matter). it's just a heck of a lot easier for some than others. in the case of WF, they can be ok as DPS in many situations, but the only particularly compelling WF tank that i am aware of is the arcane tank that self-heals while DoTing the boss. of course, they are quite obviously not melees...

    regardless, it seems a bit silly to rip into WF tanks specifically, when frankly there are plenty of really really bad fleshy tanks out there too. sure, the WF has to invest a bunch to get the same heal amp, but quite frankly all too often none of the tanks available are good options in the first place. it's like choosing between getting kicked in the shins, and kicked in the head: if you absolutely had to, you'd probably choose to get kicked in the shins, but you'd rather not be kicked at all.

  19. #79
    Community Member Monkey-Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caliban View Post

    And a side benefit is you can be healed by arcane casters, which lessens the burden on the regular healers if you are off-tank instead of main tank, or in a group that simply doesn't have a healer.

    It's pulling teeth these days to get casters to buff, even throw haste, on a party . . . you expect them to heal to?

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arlathen View Post
    It doesn't quite work like that. Healers friend is a direct additive to the base healing amount, but the rest stacks multiplicatively.

    I.E With Healers Friend 1 and the mods you mentioned:

    0.65 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.3 = 122%, truncated.

    Edit: Beaten to the punch, but oh well its there as info

    just going to start a new thread on this subject since its off topic sort of..
    Last edited by adamkatt; 03-09-2012 at 02:44 PM.
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