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  1. #141
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    not talking about the current game doesn't mean everything is going to work out exactly the way you imagine it. there will be other DPS PrEs. most likely, they will not be completely useless compared to tempest (which may not even stay the same as the preview, frankly).

    and i would still greatly prefer it if the changes they introduce to the game did not generate a great big "was i supposed to care about this" for all except a very specific limited build.

    a PrE that has an impact *regardless of your other build decisions* offers something that will be useful no matter what. tempest has an impact IF AND ONLY IF YOU ARE A TWF BUILD. it is complete and utter useless trash to any other build, and you would be an absolute fool for even considering it on any other build. it may not even be appealing after we see the final versions for a TWF build, and it will absolutely be a pile of raw, putrid suck for any other build in the game apart from a TWF melee. how is this hard to understand?

    is it *really* that hard to grasp that a racial PrE should be at least a little bit appealing to that race for more than one build?
    TWF melee is not just one build. It is one of 3 melee combat styles that ANY MELEE CLASS can take the feats in.

    Where were you on this years ago eh? Funny that the optimizers havent complained like this up til now about tempest, or melee ranger for that matter, pigeonholing you into TWF. We clearly see why they havent, because its not the optimal output choice anyhow. Now they are complaining about it however, and we clearly see why that is as well. When tempest + class combo DOES become an optimal choice for even a few things, they will now have to play drow to be best, or play another race to be second best. Thats a hilarious dilema to put a min maxer in. The race they used to make fun of and care less about is getting a revamped PRE that they used to also care less about that might just make a few combinations of builds have the best output in the game.

    And please, lets just can the whole "pigeonholing us into TWF builds" argument while we're at it. Let the debunking commence: One racial choice isnt going to change anything the optimizers werent already happy to do from day one - take the khopeash feat and weild the arbitrarily broken weapon to its fullest potential. They already pigeonholed themselves on their builds well before this new change ever came along. /furiously taps the hOrc example youve been completely glossing over for multiple posts now. Heres a race that gives bonuses to THF and barbarians, and yet we see alot of TWF khopesh kensai and TWF khopesh assassin hOrcs running around with two khopesh and no barbarian levels - which crushes your entire melee combat style pigeoholing argument.

    Why arent you complaining about dwarf and WF being pigeonholed into tank PRE then? By your own logic thats a far worse restriction than making a PRE that benefits TWF. Oh wait - it doesnt run the risk of becomming optimal DPS output on a race that you dont want to have to play in order to be optimal - no need to complain about that. This train is never late folks.

    Why havent you been complaining about elven AA over the past few years - a PRE that ONLY benefits bow users - a far worse racial pigeonholing experiment than giving drow a strong TWF PRE. Same reason. - doesnt run the risk of becomming optimal DPS on a platform the optimizers do not desire to play on. Its far easier to sit inside their comfort zone and poke fun at the bow kiters. That is....

    ...right up to and until that comfort zone disappears. Then the complaining begins.
    Last edited by Chai; 04-27-2012 at 06:01 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  2. #142
    Community Member HatsuharuZ's Avatar
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    Would the tempest prestige enhancement/tree by itself make drow a more useful race?

    I think that drow need more than just a racial prestige that is only good for one thing. How about some racial charisma and intelligence enhancements? Or, if the devs are feeling generous, let drow be able to select between Tempest, a PrE from an intelligence-based class, or a PrE from a charisma-based class.

  3. #143
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    halforcs give bonuses to all melee styles. and to some extent, ranged styles. more power attack is useful whether you're TWF or THF. more strength is useful whether you're THF, TWF, or ranged. more action boosts is useful whether you're TWF, THF, or ranged. even on a caster, more strength gives more carrying capacity (and for many caster classes, you'll often be carrying around 100 pounds of spell components alone). you see horcs using khopeshes because TWF and THF are both benefitted by being a horc.

    more off-hand attacks is useful if you are using two weapons. full damage to off-hand attacks is useful if you are using two weapons. the race as currently presented offers very little to any combat style at all, and the only reason it will offer anything to TWF (barring a complete revision of how drow are designed) is because of tempest. they have pretty much nothing else to make them particularly good for *any* other melee role.

    and actually, i haven't been objecting to arcane archer because i wasn't around when it was first proposed, and now that they're talking about giving everything a PrE, you'll note that i am, in fact, protesting leaving arcane archer as their only option (i don't think it's reasonable to take it away). you may not *like* the specific alternate suggestions i've given, but it's pretty indisputable that i did, in fact, propose racial PrEs for each race that can provide a benefit *regardless* of what class you choose. i even went so far as to propose that WF and dwarf get different prestige enhancements from each other just for the sake of being different.

    and their "tank" PrE as you call it is in fact extremely versatile. more HP is useful for anyone. more strength is at least marginally useful for anyone. more saves is useful for anyone. more con is useful for anyone. even the aggro generation has potential to be used by anyone. if we don't see multiple arcane/divine tank builds for both dwarves and warforged, as well as various monk earth stance tank builds, i will be shocked. heck, i'll be surprised if we don't see non-tanks using those PrEs at least occasionally, certainly on soloing builds, though they'll have to be careful to not pull aggro at a bad time in raids.

    in fact, if you had been paying attention, you would know that i even suggested different PrEs for half-orcs (purple dragon knight or warchanter, though warchanter might not work) and halflings (acrobat, though last i checked people were still completely unable to grasp that abilities like an immunity to knockdown effects and faster running speed and a massive temporary boost to reflex saves are in fact beneficial to everyone whether QS attack speed is or not) because i felt their current proposed PrEs are going to be only useful for a very narrow group of builds.

    but why am i going on about drow tempest? well, that's what this thread is about. it's not called "all the racial prestige enhancements should be more useful to more builds instead of being very specific". it's called "Drow Tempest in expansion". as such, i'm primarily discussing drow tempest in the expansion.

    and my concerns are that it may very well not be the best choice for TWF characters, and that even if it is the best TWF build, tempest only offers anything at all to TWF characters. it has absolutely nothing to offer to any other build in the game. you are either TWF, or it doesn't even matter.

    (and on a side note, if you think my proposed racial PrE for drow doesn't add significantly to drow TWF melee builds, as well as other drow melee, ranged, and caster builds, then you must be looking at a different ninja spy PrE than i am).

  4. #144
    Community Member Narwe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    i wasn't talking about tempest. i was talking about ravager. you have one thing that you speculate might be the case for it, and are concluding that it won't add a lot of DPS based on that one thing.

    we have seen a preview of tempest, which is getting a fairly significant boost. not just above what tempest was before, but also above what i would suspect most melee PrEs are adding right now. we can assume that the other melee PrEs are not going to be likewise boosted significantly (if in different ways), but that seems somewhat questionable. it particularly seems rather absurd to go off the assumption that prestige enhancements for classes that are pure melee DPS and the PrE is itself pure melee DPS by design will not add much DPS. if those classes add similar DPS to what tempest does (and i don't find that terribly implausible; consider for a moment that frenzied berzerker, for example, adds 6d6 bane damage to every hit *right now* in addition to several other features that boost damage, and could very well be scheduled for an improvement since right now melees are hurting pretty bad in the balance department - you really think ravager isn't going to add significant DPS?)

    furthermore, no matter how you look at it drow are not 34 point, at least not to a melee (to a class that actually values at least two of dex, int, and cha enough to raise them above 14, sure. to a melee that largely only cares about strength, dex, and con, and largely only cares about getting dex to the point where it qualifies them for certain feats, they're essentially not much better than a 28 point build or in some cases worse than a 28 point build, if a very high con is a priority).

    20 hit points won't break your build (although, as i have pointed out repeatedly, it is entirely possible for the difference to be 40 or 60). but it sure doesn't help things along any further when you're already suffering.

    we know that enhancements are changing. we know that drow are (at least currently) planned to get the tempest PrE. we don't know what other enhancements drow might be getting. but unless those enhancements are really really interesting, it is entirely possible that drow will not even be the best rogues, or the best anything in melee (with the possible exception of flavor builds like a TWF short sword monk with a secondary specialisation in shuriken - a build i had been planning to make for a while, and which would in fact benefit from tempest... but which is not at all being chosen for it's effectiveness)

    and this still leaves the fact that most of the builds which drow are pretty much guaranteed to at least be *reasonably* suited for (sorcerers, wizards, artificer, and any non-TWF bard) are getting absolutely nothing whatsoever. instead of taking something drow are good at, and making them really good, we're getting something drow are currently pretty bad at. and we don't even know that it will make them good at it - it may very well wind up that it just takes them from "you do realize this is a bad choice for anything other than a deliberately drow flavor build, right?" to "well, i guess it isn't a *completely* bad idea".

    but even if it does take drow rogues to a point where they are not a bad choice... are you seriously convinced that a racial PrE which is only particularly good for *one* specific build (and which is sorta decent for a couple of other builds) is the best choice in terms of making the race appealing?
    Well, Chai is correct, drow are 32 pt and my paladin/monk TWF AC 2TR build was very happy to have a base 10 stat points (instead of 8 for human for instance) in int (base 10 int +3 tome for CE), dex and chr. If you want a thf barbarian, then you are fine with your approach, but that does not negate what Chai is saying. Tempest will be a nice boost to this build.
    Last edited by Narwe; 05-18-2012 at 12:23 PM.

  5. #145
    Community Member Sirgleno's Avatar
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    You sure tore up that "optimizer" straw man Chai, though as a long time flavor builder (and Drow player), I share the disappointment that Drow will likely now be even further behind other races except when TWF-ing.

    How bout just making Drow 32 points on a first life, and balancing w/ enhancement options. The fact that Drow are already pigeonholed into a small number of top builds isn't helped at all by further forcing a specific fighting style.

    Feel free to rebut, I will be watching this thread, but please note that I have seen your signature and read the whole thread), so further "tapping" of your signature for my benefit is wholly unnecessary.
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  6. #146
    Community Member Aerendil's Avatar
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    Soooooo, to sum about 8 pages of infighting on whether or not Tempest is the correct way to go for Turbine, the end result is that the following combos seem like they'll shine:

    Drow Rogue/Assassin + Tempest (for 100% offhand sneak attack damage).

    Drow Fighter/Kensai + Tempest.

    Drow Monk + Tempest.

    Possibly a Drow Bard/Warchanter or Virtuoso + Tempest, although personally I'd rather split my points between Bardic PrEs if I were a Bard. Full Warchanter with almost full Virtuoso benefits would rock.


    Personally, however, I'm more excited for the non-Drow who can now combine Tempest with other PrEs. A Human, for example, can choose another PrE, such as Kensai, so you could have Human Tempest + Kensai. I think Half-Elves got to choose a PrE as well, so that's a possibility for them too. As already mentioned, you could have Half-Orc Ranger/Tempest + Ravager. Or a halfling Ranger/Tempest + Assassin (although not sure how good your sneak damage will be. But hey, you can get free vorpal weapons). Lots of possibilities here.

    Lastly, regarding scimitars, yes the new Tempest looks to prefer them. However, as others have pointed out, nothing requires you to be the scimitar-wielding Drow. You can use whichever weapon you prefer. Scimitar will simply save you the -2 penalty from not having OTWF, that's all. Weapon Finesse probably isn't going to come into play, as I don't think there are any dex-based Scimitars out there.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerendil View Post
    Soooooo, to sum about 8 pages of infighting on whether or not Tempest is the correct way to go for Turbine, the end result is that the following combos seem like they'll shine:

    Drow Rogue/Assassin + Tempest (for 100% offhand sneak attack damage).

    Drow Fighter/Kensai + Tempest.

    Drow Monk + Tempest.

    Possibly a Drow Bard/Warchanter or Virtuoso + Tempest, although personally I'd rather split my points between Bardic PrEs if I were a Bard. Full Warchanter with almost full Virtuoso benefits would rock.


    Personally, however, I'm more excited for the non-Drow who can now combine Tempest with other PrEs. A Human, for example, can choose another PrE, such as Kensai, so you could have Human Tempest + Kensai. I think Half-Elves got to choose a PrE as well, so that's a possibility for them too. As already mentioned, you could have Half-Orc Ranger/Tempest + Ravager. Or a halfling Ranger/Tempest + Assassin (although not sure how good your sneak damage will be. But hey, you can get free vorpal weapons). Lots of possibilities here.

    Lastly, regarding scimitars, yes the new Tempest looks to prefer them. However, as others have pointed out, nothing requires you to be the scimitar-wielding Drow. You can use whichever weapon you prefer. Scimitar will simply save you the -2 penalty from not having OTWF, that's all. Weapon Finesse probably isn't going to come into play, as I don't think there are any dex-based Scimitars out there.
    As far as folks know, rapiers will still be a racial weapon for drow?

  8. #148
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS-Makk View Post
    As far as folks know, rapiers will still be a racial weapon for drow?
    no information on that really.

  9. #149
    Community Member Aerendil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    no information on that really.
    Yeah, exactly.
    We know they're re-doing the enhancements, which definitely include the PrE abilities. However, as there's a "Race" tab in the new setup, it's entirely possible that the racial abilities may be getting an overhaul too. Nobody knows at this point.
    But for now? Yeah, it's rapier/shortsword for Drow.


    Oh, and one other new class combo for the upcoming changes I forgot to mention.
    Drow Druid Tempest or Drow FvS Tempest with dual-scimitars.

    The melee FvS worked in the past, and I see no reason why Druid wouldn't also be viable (with shapechange, self-healing, and a tank pet? Umm, yeah).

  10. #150
    Community Member Memek's Avatar
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    Not in beta so dont know...
    But i would expect that they dont make Ravager about Barb Rage since then noone except Barbs would be able to take advantage of that.

    So i dont get the excitement about Tempest... Ravager sounds like it's gonna be where it's at. Plus you dont have to roll a smurf for that.

    I dont quite get the excitement, i mean you can get Tempest (yawn) for being a smurf (yuck) or grab Ravager (RAWRRRRRRR) - and NOT be a smurf (UH YEAH).

    Heck, i suppose it's just my lack of beta knowledge which makes the choice seem fairly straightforward...

    So excuse my lack of foreknowledge but if i had to choose between *cough* tempest *cough* and RA-VA-GER (*choo* *choo* *choo*), yeah, i think i'd know what to grab.
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  11. #151
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memek View Post
    Not in beta so dont know...
    But i would expect that they dont make Ravager about Barb Rage since then noone except Barbs would be able to take advantage of that.

    So i dont get the excitement about Tempest... Ravager sounds like it's gonna be where it's at. Plus you dont have to roll a smurf for that.

    I dont quite get the excitement, i mean you can get Tempest (yawn) for being a smurf (yuck) or grab Ravager (RAWRRRRRRR) - and NOT be a smurf (UH YEAH).

    Heck, i suppose it's just my lack of beta knowledge which makes the choice seem fairly straightforward...

    So excuse my lack of foreknowledge but if i had to choose between *cough* tempest *cough* and RA-VA-GER (*choo* *choo* *choo*), yeah, i think i'd know what to grab.
    neither are in beta. or at least, neither are going to be coming out with the expansion, and i consider it extremely likely for the devs to put it into the beta since the earliest it could come out is U15, and there are rumors that even that isn't going to happen, which would push it back to U16... or some time around november, as i understand it.

    personally, while i'm glad to see it not get pushed out before it's ready, i would really like to see it sooner rather than later though... i'd love to see it make U15, but i also don't know how much content they're looking at for U15 either (i mean, if they're gonna put, say, 2 more adventure packs instead of their usual one, i could see that making it hard to get the enhancement revamp done for U15. but i'd still like to see it in U15 anyways )

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