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  1. #101
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    Karl.... very true. I think that they have realized the amount of coding and the extreme complication of re-writing the enhancement system. They will basically be "breaking" every "build" in the game. Then the real question is will they allow us a free "lesser", because the feats, enhancements, class breakdown, and gear all affect how the toon is played. The enhancement system WILL be better when they are done and work the "bugs" out, however that looks like it will be a long time away....
    Last edited by Battlehawke; 04-15-2012 at 09:09 AM.
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  2. #102
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    Why is being limited to 3 matter to anyone other than 6/6/6(+2) builds? A melee will still be able to take a single pre to max, and have his melee racial to add to his power. Even a 12/6/2 build can take a tier II, a tier I, and his racial. A caster other then battlecasters or taking tanking enhancements won't gain that amount of power, hence closing the gap.

    As for their intentions for melee, here is part of it, and add in the fact that all racials mentioned are melee/ranged it is simple to see their plan. Melee enhancements will become more varied and cheaper while casters are already seeing things like their +energy/crit/crit chance being separated and costing more. They can't balance the spells without removing them or making the cool downs horrible, so they are balancing via enhancements.



    Cut out some of the irrevalent parts. Bolded important parts.
    it's very simple. currently, a fighter/ranger/monk can have up to 3 PrEs (provided they have at least 6 levels in each class). they have told us that when the new enhancements hit, the intent is that a fighter 20 will be able to choose any or all of the fighter prestiges, and that it will be done by choosing fighter enhancements in sufficient quantities to hit certain milestones. that is, if you have chosen X points from the kensei tree, you get kensei 1, and so forth.

    as such, the way they have described it, you will be able to make a wild mage/archmage combination, or a pale master/archmage, or a pale master/wild mage, or a pale master/archmage/wild mage. 3 PrEs, all on a pure wizard.

    Quote Originally Posted by krogyy View Post
    you underestimate the benefits that blue bars will gain from a racial archmage tab, benefits that far, _far_ surpasses what a melee would get. consider a archmage sorc or, even more insane, an archmage fvs: main school evo for super high implosion DC and cheap nukes, secondary school in conj for 3sp heightened webs (!!!) and last but not least, full kinect line for boosting BBs to the lower stratosphere. all that on a divine!!!!

    that would be beyond broken.
    the DC boosts i suggested would be linked to having the feats, as we know that they have said you will be able to skip many requirements but won't get the full benefits. one thing that most sorcerers, favored souls, and clerics *don't* have is feats to burn on wizard PrEs. furthermore, sorcerers, favored souls, and clerics *should* also be faced with the option of taking multiple PrEs within their own classes. an elf sorcerer isn't getting to have 2 PrEs when they would have only one normally. they *might* be allowed to take 4 instead of 3, or 3 instead of 2 (depends on whether or not sorcerers are getting an actual third PrE instead of getting 2 PrEs with one of those being considered 4 separate ones). alternately, if they do limit us to 3 PrEs, they still won't get access to more than anyone else. they'll just have an extra option. one which, being based on archmage, will likely cost a few feats to get the best toys, and which will mean they're missing out on other goodies their own class PrEs could offer.

    doesn't matter. game balance does. better leave casters pre alone.
    not making the casters further superior to melees is good. leaving casters exactly the same while revamping melees is just a bad idea.

    i repeat myself. we will probably get racial pre in addition to these. what else do you think you will get as automatic bonuses for the racial tab?
    what racial PrEs in addition to these? there are none announced. why would we assume they're making more but aren't telling us? "hey, maybe they'll come out with PrEs that don't work only if you're one specific build later, and that will make everything better"? seriously? i'd rather they do it right *now* and then not have to fix it later, while retaining the option of offering stuff for specific builds without shoehorning that race into that build.

    but how would you gain Ki? it is a monk-only resource and it should be kept this way. when you move class features to racial enhanchments you are not just doing an enhanchment revamp, you are doing a game revamp...

    tempest is a fine and far simpler choice to implement.
    why do monk's *need* to have a monopoly on ki? is there going to be some horrible wave of destruction that will destroy all of creation if they don't have a monopoly on ki? it's merely a game mechanic designed to limit how often monks can do stuff. nothing more. monks should have *more* ki, and be better at using it, than non-monks. but the only thing 3.5 has that is remotely like ki is the stunning fist feat, and *anyone* can take it (although monks get more uses per day and are in general better prepared to use unarmed attacks in the first place).

    the question is: why not assassin? halfling are a weak race anyway, it's nice they get a powerful racial pre.
    because assassin is a melee-only PrE that limits your options. you're not going to choose to be an assassin wizard or an assassin cleric. on the other hand, i almost guarantee you would see acrobat clerics and acrobat wizards if it didn't involve a 12 level splash. right now, just about the only build i expect to see making use of halfling access to assassin are monks, and they'll be missing out on the main ability (assassinate) due to not having enough int to succeed most of the time.

    acrobat, while situationally useful, whould be quite weak if you don't use staves.
    this just highlights your ignorance of how useful the acrobat abilities are. i would be absolutely *shocked* if one of the main things that kills arcanes and divines was not being tripped. the number of clerics who would love to be able to run faster is probably almost exactly the same as the number of clerics being played.

    we don't have info on ravager so i'll not comment on horcs.
    we don't need to know everything about it to make a general prediction of what it will offer. it's not rocket science. it's the ravager, not the flower-picking hippy. it will offer melee DPS. it will offer nothing to builds that are not melee DPS. that is all we need to know to understand that it won't help anyone making anything non-melee.

    i do agree with you that WF need something else than stalwart defender. not sure if occult slayer is the right choice...
    why do WF need something else but none of the others do? unlike most of the others, WF are actually getting a PrE that i expect to see a variety of builds based on. we'll see WF casters (of both arcane and divine varieties), artificers, and some monks taking this in large numbers i expect. maybe even a few for other classes. there are a number of wizards in the game *right now* running around with shields to reduce their incoming damage. do you *really* think the WF ones doing this aren't going to be all over taking the defender PrE? do you really think there aren't going to be people changing to have that PrE?

    WF should have something else purely for the flavor reason of letting them get something different from dwarves. this frankly should take a back seat to the ones that actually need help.

    absolutely not, reasons have already been given.
    reasons given from a state of ignorance regarding what we've been told about how enhancements might work. true, they might change how enhancements work. we don't know one way or the other. but from what we've been told, none of this is too crazy or unreasonable.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    the DC boosts i suggested would be linked to having the feats, as we know that they have said you will be able to skip many requirements but won't get the full benefits. one thing that most sorcerers, favored souls, and clerics *don't* have is feats to burn on wizard PrEs. furthermore, sorcerers, favored souls, and clerics *should* also be faced with the option of taking multiple PrEs within their own classes. an elf sorcerer isn't getting to have 2 PrEs when they would have only one normally. they *might* be allowed to take 4 instead of 3, or 3 instead of 2 (depends on whether or not sorcerers are getting an actual third PrE instead of getting 2 PrEs with one of those being considered 4 separate ones). alternately, if they do limit us to 3 PrEs, they still won't get access to more than anyone else. they'll just have an extra option. one which, being based on archmage, will likely cost a few feats to get the best toys, and which will mean they're missing out on other goodies their own class PrEs could offer.
    i understand that you want more options for your blue bars, but i still feel caster pres given as a racial may be over the top.

    the issue is not how many pre one can take but which ones and how they combine with class abilities. regarding the feats, a sorc or a fvs, especially of the multiple PL kind, certainly have the feats to take two spell focus feats. in fact they already take them.

    besides, i am failry confident it will never happen since granting a blue bar via enhanchments is a recipe for disaster in so many ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    not making the casters further superior to melees is good. leaving casters exactly the same while revamping melees is just a bad idea.
    they will _not_ be the same at all. you will be able to be archmage _and_ palemaster at the same time for example. oh, and you will get lots of new pres too.

    sure, as it stands you don't benefit much from the optional extra tab grated by the race (and you can still benefit if you build a tukaw-like toon) but claiming the caster will be "exactly the same" is ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    what racial PrEs in addition to these? there are none announced. why would we assume they're making more but aren't telling us? "hey, maybe they'll come out with PrEs that don't work only if you're one specific build later, and that will make everything better"? seriously? i'd rather they do it right *now* and then not have to fix it later, while retaining the option of offering stuff for specific builds without shoehorning that race into that build.
    http://ddowiki.com/page/File:Enhs.jpg

    you see the automatically granted abilities at the bottom of the racial tab?
    what do you think those are?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    why do monk's *need* to have a monopoly on ki? is there going to be some horrible wave of destruction that will destroy all of creation if they don't have a monopoly on ki? it's merely a game mechanic designed to limit how often monks can do stuff. nothing more. monks should have *more* ki, and be better at using it, than non-monks. but the only thing 3.5 has that is remotely like ki is the stunning fist feat, and *anyone* can take it (although monks get more uses per day and are in general better prepared to use unarmed attacks in the first place).
    i can see your point and i might agree in principle that they could make improved unarmed strike a selectable feat, etc.

    nonetheless it won't happen as it touches the system core, same with the blue bar. they will need to change code all over the place to make this work. considering the sorry state of unarmed combat today, i certainly don't want them to introduce even more bugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    because assassin is a melee-only PrE that limits your options. you're not going to choose to be an assassin wizard or an assassin cleric. on the other hand, i almost guarantee you would see acrobat clerics and acrobat wizards if it didn't involve a 12 level splash. right now, just about the only build i expect to see making use of halfling access to assassin are monks, and they'll be missing out on the main ability (assassinate) due to not having enough int to succeed most of the time.

    this just highlights your ignorance of how useful the acrobat abilities are. i would be absolutely *shocked* if one of the main things that kills arcanes and divines was not being tripped. the number of clerics who would love to be able to run faster is probably almost exactly the same as the number of clerics being played.
    i do have a rogue and she has been an acrobat from level 12-17. melees don't need this as much due to high strength/dextery values that prevent the trips.

    granted, i see your point about casters wanting this. but, is it a good choice to eliminate one of the few ways a caster can die?

    on the other hand, i think you are lacking imagination about the utility of the assassin pre. artificers, rangers and also splashed rogues will benefit from it greatly. all twf builds will gain a lot of extra damage even if they can't make use of assassinate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    we don't need to know everything about it to make a general prediction of what it will offer. it's not rocket science. it's the ravager, not the flower-picking hippy. it will offer melee DPS. it will offer nothing to builds that are not melee DPS. that is all we need to know to understand that it won't help anyone making anything non-melee.
    i see the pattern, now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    why do WF need something else but none of the others do? unlike most of the others, WF are actually getting a PrE that i expect to see a variety of builds based on. we'll see WF casters (of both arcane and divine varieties), artificers, and some monks taking this in large numbers i expect. maybe even a few for other classes. there are a number of wizards in the game *right now* running around with shields to reduce their incoming damage. do you *really* think the WF ones doing this aren't going to be all over taking the defender PrE? do you really think there aren't going to be people changing to have that PrE?

    WF should have something else purely for the flavor reason of letting them get something different from dwarves. this frankly should take a back seat to the ones that actually need help.
    they don't need something else. but it would be better since, as you said, dwarves have stalwart too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    reasons given from a state of ignorance regarding what we've been told about how enhancements might work. true, they might change how enhancements work. we don't know one way or the other. but from what we've been told, none of this is too crazy or unreasonable.
    leaving aside your accusations of ignorance... i understand what you want: options that benefits casters.

    you will have them, lots of them in the form of new pres, stacking pres and new racial enhanchments (i expect elves to have lots of goodies for arcanes, for example). not to mention that you will be able to make effective melee/caster hybrids without even splashing in the same way you can do an effective caster/archer on live atm.

    it is true that melees will have more options to min/max but, frankly, they need them.
    Last edited by krogyy; 04-16-2012 at 03:04 AM.

  4. #104
    Community Member Rydin_Dirtay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krogyy View Post
    Archmage racial stuff
    that would be beyond broken.
    I don't think he wants things taken THAT far.

    A full-blown Archmage racial would probably not be the way to go, but a watered down caster racial PrE for Elves would seem to be more fitting.
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  5. #105
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    i don't want options that benefit casters, i want PrEs that can potentially benefit *any* build, not just a specific one. drow tempest is useless for ranged builds. ninja spy is not. ravager is very likely to be useless for archer builds. a buffing PrE (which would also offer those buffs to the build itself) would not be. assassin would be at least somewhat useful to any build which doesn't rely on long range (ie greater than 30 feet). acrobat would be useful to any build, period.

    arcane archer is useless to anyone who doesn't plan on using a bow a significant amount of the time. a PrE that allows you to spam defense/utility buffs (or even have some minimal amount of offensive casting which frankly most melee builds wouldn't be able to make effective use of anyways) would be useful almost all of the time, even if all it offers is more efficient use of those buffs.

    right now, unless your drow is a TWF melee, you don't care even a tiny bit about the upcoming drow tempest PrE. it is useless. it would actually be more exciting if they announced drow were getting a +2 bonus to swim checks, because at least *that* would be used some of the time on your build. *that* is the problem i have with drow tempest (and various other PrEs).

  6. #106
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    i don't want options that benefit casters, i want PrEs that can potentially benefit *any* build, not just a specific one. drow tempest is useless for ranged builds. ninja spy is not. ravager is very likely to be useless for archer builds. a buffing PrE (which would also offer those buffs to the build itself) would not be. assassin would be at least somewhat useful to any build which doesn't rely on long range (ie greater than 30 feet). acrobat would be useful to any build, period.
    Who is making a drow archer who isnt already ranger anyhow, and who is making a drow arty would would want to get into melee anyhow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    arcane archer is useless to anyone who doesn't plan on using a bow a significant amount of the time. a PrE that allows you to spam defense/utility buffs (or even have some minimal amount of offensive casting which frankly most melee builds wouldn't be able to make effective use of anyways) would be useful almost all of the time, even if all it offers is more efficient use of those buffs.
    Hardly. Arcane archer is the better of the two ranger PREs right now, even for someone who melees most of the time. Not all time is spent on mobs - most of it is travel. 100 seconds for manyshot to cool down isnt that long of a time, and the fact that it can take an entire hallway of mobs out hardly sucks, even for someone who melees most of the time.

    I think its hilarious when I play with people who build for no ranged option whatsoever and constantly knock ranged because of the lack of DPS, and when its needed, they are the ones who are practically useless. The sacrifice made is like ~15% less melee DPS for ~500% or so more ranged DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    right now, unless your drow is a TWF melee, you don't care even a tiny bit about the upcoming drow tempest PrE. it is useless. it would actually be more exciting if they announced drow were getting a +2 bonus to swim checks, because at least *that* would be used some of the time on your build. *that* is the problem i have with drow tempest (and various other PrEs).
    The same can be said for any one of the races with regards to their racial PRE. I understand YOU dont like tempest, but that is what drow are and have been in lore since the early 80s - a race that doesnt take a penalty for TWFing the same weapon in each hand.

    THF drow arent exactly common, not in DDO and not in D&D in general. Uthegental Armgo is a misnomer among the drow - even accused of not being full blooded due to standing over 6 feet tall and having lots of facial hair. For every one of him there are thousands of TWF fighters.
    Last edited by Chai; 04-16-2012 at 01:40 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  7. #107
    Community Member Cyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    right now, unless your drow is a TWF melee, you don't care even a tiny bit about the upcoming drow tempest PrE. it is useless. it would actually be more exciting if they announced drow were getting a +2 bonus to swim checks, because at least *that* would be used some of the time on your build. *that* is the problem i have with drow tempest (and various other PrEs).
    Yup, I agree with this point.

    Generally useful PrE's to everyone are far preferable to niche PrE's for racial use.

    Ravager is a big question mark right now, but many are betting it will be the 'crit rage' line of things which would be incredibly useful on any number of melee and ranged builds making it very viable for alot of builds.

    Assassin is already very valuable for the same types of builds minus tanking type builds which expect to have agro.

    SD is neat for pretty much any build.

    Human and helves can choose anything apparently which is uber.

    Really it is elf (AA) and drow (tempest) which are the most niche options.

    That is a problem I would say for these two racial PrE options. I think that something more like human/helves would be in order here where you could take one of the racial PrE options, but more limited in scope then the anything helves/human.

    I think the following options for racial PrE's would open up alot more build options for these races.

    Drow - Tempest, Ninja Spy, Pale Master, Savant, mechanic
    Elf - Archmage, the existing FvS one which I can not remember the name of atm, AA, acrobat, Kensai
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  8. #108
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    Yup, I agree with this point.

    Generally useful PrE's to everyone are far preferable to niche PrE's for racial use.

    Ravager is a big question mark right now, but many are betting it will be the 'crit rage' line of things which would be incredibly useful on any number of melee and ranged builds making it very viable for alot of builds.
    Any build including rage you mean which is just as niche as TWF builds are, which is to say, not really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    Assassin is already very valuable for the same types of builds minus tanking type builds which expect to have agro.

    SD is neat for pretty much any build.

    Human and helves can choose anything apparently which is uber.
    Im not so sure the interpretation of "any" carries over to caster and cleric PREs - I think it meant any racial that already exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    Really it is elf (AA) and drow (tempest) which are the most niche options.
    AA being far more niche than tempest. The optimizers love their TWF khopesh builds, which is why its only a very small minority who are complaining about the drow tempest decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyr View Post
    That is a problem I would say for these two racial PrE options. I think that something more like human/helves would be in order here where you could take one of the racial PrE options, but more limited in scope then the anything helves/human.

    I think the following options for racial PrE's would open up alot more build options for these races.

    Drow - Tempest, Ninja Spy, Pale Master, Savant, mechanic
    Elf - Archmage, the existing FvS one which I can not remember the name of atm, AA, acrobat, Kensai
    I think they *could* make a list of PRE the two races could take as their racial, which a limit of ONE racial PRE per toon.
    Last edited by Chai; 04-16-2012 at 02:12 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  9. #109
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    i dare say THF drow and melee artificers are uncommon because those builds are not particularly effective rather than being the result of books that probably more than half the people who play DDO have never seen, let alone read, mentioning that drow are excellent at the TWF style. frankly, there aren't an awful lot of TWF drow in DDO, either. do you blame *that* on what 1st edition D&D said about drow too?

    there aren't a lot of elves being played in DDO. do you blame that on people reading about 1st edition elves being rare?

    there's tons of half-orcs in DDO. and warforged. is that because there's some 1st edition book that tells us that those races are common? are people making THF half-orcs in DDO because THF is how orcs have always been depicted, or is it because THF + orc works really, really well together mechanically?

    WF have a favored class of fighter in eberron. in fact, they were mass-produced specifically to be fighters. why are so many of them wizards and sorcerers and artificers, yet so few are fighters, in DDO? it certainly isn't because of the lore, i'll tell you that much.

    people will play what works well, as a general rule. yes, not everyone optimizes every aspect of their character, but even those who deliberately don't optimize one part tend to optimize others (or else why do we see so many acrobat builds with monk splashes carefully designed to take advantage of the best features of both monk and rogue? why are so many current acrobat builds half-orcs if not because half-orcs get a bonus to THF that helps out considerably when you're using one of the weakest weapons in the game?)

    if you make all the races have useful abilities for only one thing, you will tend to see mostly that one thing. if you make a race that is somewhat mediocre at several things, you will generally see that race get used a lot less. they become less of an option.

    adding an option for drow to become mediocre at melee isn't going to help much. so unless the new tempest makes every other melee PrE look pathetic, to the point where it overcomes the innate deficiencies drow have in melee right now, we're still not going to see a lot of them (barring the initial rush of yet even more attempted drizzt clones).

    also, regarding arcane archer... having a ranged option is great. spending 13 action points and two feats (plus whatever other prereq requirements you choose, potentially including an otherwise not-very useful splash, or a feat, or an action point if you have the right class). i can get bow strength and even bow proficiency with a couple of gear swaps and be *decent* in ranged combat, if not amazing. i can even just carry around a throwing weapon (throwing axes, for example, have a similar profile to a bow) on my melees and have a decent ranged option. i don't need to be able to pull out a greensteel lightning II longbow and use manyshot to be able to use ranged attacks. sure, i won't be kiting around raid bosses while DPSing them like an arcane archer, but for the majority of situations, simply making sure you have a decent ranged option is sufficient. having a top-tier range option does come in useful every now and then, but is not a prerequisite for usefulness in ranged (for example, i could right now cannith craft a +5 holy of bleed thrown weapon for each of my characters. one of my characters even has a noxious fang to throw at people. some are casters, some are already ranged. none of them is completely lacking in ranged capabilities, and yet none of them are arcane archers. in situations where ranged damage is useful, they do contribute, and they do so without spending multiple feats, action points, or possibly even levels on it).

  10. #110
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    i dare say THF drow and melee artificers are uncommon because those builds are not particularly effective rather than being the result of books that probably more than half the people who play DDO have never seen, let alone read, mentioning that drow are excellent at the TWF style. frankly, there aren't an awful lot of TWF drow in DDO, either. do you blame *that* on what 1st edition D&D said about drow too?
    Actually there are quite a few TWF drow in DDO. No they are not all drizzt clones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    there aren't a lot of elves being played in DDO. do you blame that on people reading about 1st edition elves being rare?
    I blame that on people wanting to play something other than the run of the mill cookie cutter hOrc w/ khopesh

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    there's tons of half-orcs in DDO. and warforged. is that because there's some 1st edition book that tells us that those races are common? are people making THF half-orcs in DDO because THF is how orcs have always been depicted, or is it because THF + orc works really, really well together mechanically?
    Hmmm lets see. Highest str score in the game + arbitrarily overpowered weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    WF have a favored class of fighter in eberron. in fact, they were mass-produced specifically to be fighters. why are so many of them wizards and sorcerers and artificers, yet so few are fighters, in DDO? it certainly isn't because of the lore, i'll tell you that much.
    Hmm, lets see. Because ToasterLich® is the most OP class race combo in the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    people will play what works well, as a general rule. yes, not everyone optimizes every aspect of their character, but even those who deliberately don't optimize one part tend to optimize others (or else why do we see so many acrobat builds with monk splashes carefully designed to take advantage of the best features of both monk and rogue? why are so many current acrobat builds half-orcs if not because half-orcs get a bonus to THF that helps out considerably when you're using one of the weakest weapons in the game?)
    True, which is why drow SHOULD be tempest. They are the TWF race in D&D. People do build what works well, and drow tempest + another class works well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    if you make all the races have useful abilities for only one thing, you will tend to see mostly that one thing. if you make a race that is somewhat mediocre at several things, you will generally see that race get used a lot less. they become less of an option.
    Im sorry you feel tempest isnt useful. I disagree. They will make great rogues and TWF barbarians. They will make decent kensai.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    adding an option for drow to become mediocre at melee isn't going to help much. so unless the new tempest makes every other melee PrE look pathetic, to the point where it overcomes the innate deficiencies drow have in melee right now, we're still not going to see a lot of them (barring the initial rush of yet even more attempted drizzt clones).
    Tempest doesnt make drow mediocre at melee. Only you and a few optimizers believe this. /taps sig

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    also, regarding arcane archer... having a ranged option is great. spending 13 action points and two feats (plus whatever other prereq requirements you choose, potentially including an otherwise not-very useful splash, or a feat, or an action point if you have the right class). i can get bow strength and even bow proficiency with a couple of gear swaps and be *decent* in ranged combat, if not amazing. i can even just carry around a throwing weapon (throwing axes, for example, have a similar profile to a bow) on my melees and have a decent ranged option. i don't need to be able to pull out a greensteel lightning II longbow and use manyshot to be able to use ranged attacks. sure, i won't be kiting around raid bosses while DPSing them like an arcane archer, but for the majority of situations, simply making sure you have a decent ranged option is sufficient. having a top-tier range option does come in useful every now and then, but is not a prerequisite for usefulness in ranged (for example, i could right now cannith craft a +5 holy of bleed thrown weapon for each of my characters. one of my characters even has a noxious fang to throw at people. some are casters, some are already ranged. none of them is completely lacking in ranged capabilities, and yet none of them are arcane archers. in situations where ranged damage is useful, they do contribute, and they do so without spending multiple feats, action points, or possibly even levels on it).
    AA is the better of the two PRE because it sacrifices a small % of melee DPS and adds a ton of ranged DPS. People will compare the amounts of time they are in use but they dont compare the impact. The ability to manyshot an entire hallway full of mobs down is huge, even if only used during manyshot which is 20/120th of the time. Compare helves angel to a pure fighter for instance. The melee DPS isnt far off, but the disparity in ranged is huge. Sure a fighter *could feat out for ranged, but that goes against everything you just stated about contributing without having to take feats to do so.
    Last edited by Chai; 04-16-2012 at 03:17 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #111
    Community Member goodspeed's Avatar
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    well If they change tempest the way I heard I think the fighters kensai might be a less desirable way to go then what it would offer. They plan on reworking tempest.

    Though for an aa build helf will still be hands down best. Elf kinda just gets screwed. They have the same thing as a helf except they're missing dili's the versitality, the heal amp And for what? Those lil swords?

    Now for a pure 2 weapon melee i'd say it's a tough call. I mean first off you have fighter. So you got kensai, but then the choice of a racial. Stelward? Everyone can use extra hps. But what about just stacking dps, hp be damned? Well then all of a sudden maybe drow will full tempest. Stacked with kensai, perhaps even ravager. Not sure what it does but if the horcs get it as a racial you know it's gotta stack dmg.

  12. #112
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    it doesn't have to be *far* behind to be behind enough to make it get used very infrequently.

    if you could buy a car for 12,000 bucks or you could buy another car which is functionally identical in every way apart from, say, being 0.5 mpg more efficient, would you buy the one that is more fuel efficient, or the one that is less fuel efficient?

    if tempest does not offer *more* DPS than everything else, then people are going to choose the option that results in having the same DPS but 20 more HP and +1 fort save... never mind the fact that we still don't have anything to actually show that tempest won't also be 5% less DPS than a half-orc with ravager, or that some races may very well offer the same DPS and 40 more HP (or potentially 60, though racial toughness 3 and 4 are usually too expensive for my tastes), or the same DPS plus taking less damage and having *drastically* more HP and the ability to tank when called upon?

    unless there is something about drow tempest that makes it a clear and undisputed leader in damage over other race/class combinations, expect to see it still be uncommon. bearing in mind that if tempest is actually all that good, other races can be rangers, and still get access to tempest (plus the AA prestige you're talking up as well) plus whatever their own racial PrE is. if tempest really is all that awe-inspiring that it makes every other DPS prestige look gimped, personally i'll expect to see more helf/horc/human/dwarf/WF/halfling rangers than i will expect to see drow fighters, barbarians, and rogues.

  13. #113
    Community Member voodoogroves's Avatar
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    Some of that balance is more an art than science Jaid. It's actually kinda related to your car analogy - it doesn't have to be a huge shift to change public opinion enough to swing large groups.

    I don't see Drow Rangers as being that popular if this is a decent PRE; I see Rogues, Paladins, etc. taking Tempest bits in addition to their normal bits.
    Ghallanda - now with fewer alts and more ghostbane

  14. #114
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    it doesn't have to be *far* behind to be behind enough to make it get used very infrequently.

    if you could buy a car for 12,000 bucks or you could buy another car which is functionally identical in every way apart from, say, being 0.5 mpg more efficient, would you buy the one that is more fuel efficient, or the one that is less fuel efficient?

    if tempest does not offer *more* DPS than everything else, then people are going to choose the option that results in having the same DPS but 20 more HP and +1 fort save... never mind the fact that we still don't have anything to actually show that tempest won't also be 5% less DPS than a half-orc with ravager, or that some races may very well offer the same DPS and 40 more HP (or potentially 60, though racial toughness 3 and 4 are usually too expensive for my tastes), or the same DPS plus taking less damage and having *drastically* more HP and the ability to tank when called upon?

    unless there is something about drow tempest that makes it a clear and undisputed leader in damage over other race/class combinations, expect to see it still be uncommon. bearing in mind that if tempest is actually all that good, other races can be rangers, and still get access to tempest (plus the AA prestige you're talking up as well) plus whatever their own racial PrE is. if tempest really is all that awe-inspiring that it makes every other DPS prestige look gimped, personally i'll expect to see more helf/horc/human/dwarf/WF/halfling rangers than i will expect to see drow fighters, barbarians, and rogues.
    Only optimizers think in this fashion and they are the severe minority in DDO. DDO is also not balanced where only severe optimizers complete quests. According to your logic then there will only be one build that gets played alot because there can only be one best build. Since all others - even the ones that are "only a little behind" are still not the best - very few people will play them? That must mean paladins and rangers are uncommon right now. Oh wait, no theyre not. I get them in my raid groups all the time. The myth perpetuated on the forums about having to be the best build or it sucks died in 2009, when people learned that trading a small amount of DPS gained a large amount of survivability, which was better than going all out DPS with no defense. The cookie cutter mentality where everyone has to be a hOrc blizt build with khopesh died with it.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #115
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoogroves View Post
    Some of that balance is more an art than science Jaid. It's actually kinda related to your car analogy - it doesn't have to be a huge shift to change public opinion enough to swing large groups.

    I don't see Drow Rangers as being that popular if this is a decent PRE; I see Rogues, Paladins, etc. taking Tempest bits in addition to their normal bits.
    Exactly. What TWF melee doesnt benefit from full offhand damage, 100% offhand proc, and doublestrike chances?
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #116
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Exactly. What TWF melee doesnt benefit from full offhand damage, 100% offhand proc, and doublestrike chances?
    yes, but half-orcs can be rangers and take ravager too. and they get all the stuff inherent to half-orcs that makes them good DPS in addition to having a good DPS racial PrE. and they get 32 point builds instead of 28, and they don't suffer from less con. if tempest really truly blows away every other melee DPS PrE, i expect to see other races taking the stuff that they already have and adding it to ranger (or just as likely, a ranger with a deep splash in another class), rather than seeing everyone make a drow with some other melee class... because those other races have more inherent advantages (regardless of how minor) than drow when it comes to melee.

    and if you think that the majority of players don't make at least some choices based on effectiveness, i can only assume whatever server you're on is very different from mine. playing an artificer with enough AC to matter in some quests, i can tell you that in the past week i've grouped with probably one ranger with enough levels of ranger that i could have asked for barkskin, although paladins do seem to be a bit more common (then again, defender paladins are considered to be pretty viable for at least some uses, so...)

    or alternately, when was the last time you grouped with a halfling sorcerer or an elven barbarian? no, effectiveness is not the only concern people have. but it *is* a major concern for most people, and even on builds that aren't optimal you will often see people trying to figure out how to make it as good as it can be given those non-optimal choices. i doubt anyone running a QS acrobat rogue with a monk splash (and maybe a fighter level or whatever) thinks their build is the best for anything. but you can bet those people are trying to make their acrobat as useful as they can be within the constraints of being an acrobat.

    if one choice is only likely to be taken in spite of the mechanics of that choice, there is a problem. if drow really do become the best melees, that'll be pretty surprising for me (pretty much all melees could use a DPS boost right now given how much DPS an arcane can provide, so i'm expecting other DPS PrEs from all classes to offer strong offensive options), though at least it would make them a strong option *somewhere*. more likely, i'm expecting them to remain marginalized because other options will be better, even if it doesn't leave the drow option unplayable.

    adding PrEs that provide utility and defense to *every* class does not make wizards more likely to have the DC for their wail of the banshee, nor does it add massive DPS to the sorcerer's nukes. it does mean that drow won't be gimped for choosing a race that doesn't offer bonuses to hit points, shield blocking, and saves to a caster (as well as the option to decide to be an effective tank).

  17. #117
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    yes, but half-orcs can be rangers and take ravager too. and they get all the stuff inherent to half-orcs that makes them good DPS in addition to having a good DPS racial PrE. and they get 32 point builds instead of 28, and they don't suffer from less con. if tempest really truly blows away every other melee DPS PrE, i expect to see other races taking the stuff that they already have and adding it to ranger (or just as likely, a ranger with a deep splash in another class), rather than seeing everyone make a drow with some other melee class... because those other races have more inherent advantages (regardless of how minor) than drow when it comes to melee.
    If 20 HP breaks the game for you then dont play a drow. Drow are 34 point builds with points already allocated, right off the bat. Tempest would shore up drow disadvantage for anything TWF. I think the reason why some are complaining about this is because they dont want the obvious best TWF racial to go to a race whose stat allocations they do not favor. Its hard to optimize in such an environment because theres no clear cut obvious best choice to make. This is a clear indicator that they got this right btw, when such a dilema exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    and if you think that the majority of players don't make at least some choices based on effectiveness, i can only assume whatever server you're on is very different from mine. playing an artificer with enough AC to matter in some quests, i can tell you that in the past week i've grouped with probably one ranger with enough levels of ranger that i could have asked for barkskin, although paladins do seem to be a bit more common (then again, defender paladins are considered to be pretty viable for at least some uses, so...)
    The majority of players are concept builders, who build based on a concept rather than jump on the current FOTM train. The majority of players are also not represented on the forums. /taps sig again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    or alternately, when was the last time you grouped with a halfling sorcerer or an elven barbarian?
    Im guilded with an elven barbarian, play with another on a regular basis in raids. One of the better known barbarians on sarlona is a halfling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    no, effectiveness is not the only concern people have. but it *is* a major concern for most people, and even on builds that aren't optimal you will often see people trying to figure out how to make it as good as it can be given those non-optimal choices. i doubt anyone running a QS acrobat rogue with a monk splash (and maybe a fighter level or whatever) thinks their build is the best for anything. but you can bet those people are trying to make their acrobat as useful as they can be within the constraints of being an acrobat.
    People want effective toons yes but they do not require 100% optimized best of the best in order to play their concept builds effectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    if one choice is only likely to be taken in spite of the mechanics of that choice, there is a problem. if drow really do become the best melees, that'll be pretty surprising for me (pretty much all melees could use a DPS boost right now given how much DPS an arcane can provide, so i'm expecting other DPS PrEs from all classes to offer strong offensive options), though at least it would make them a strong option *somewhere*. more likely, i'm expecting them to remain marginalized because other options will be better, even if it doesn't leave the drow option unplayable.
    They wont be the best melee. They will likely be the best choice for rogue in 0-50% fort situations. This does not mean all other rogues lose viability. It means that More attacks per time unit is the best way to add DPS to the rogue class, and tempest is the PRE that does that. TWF khopesh barbarians will benefit from the tempest PRE as well. With a huge str score, giving them 100% str mod to offhand, 100% offhand proc and doublestrike potential jacks up that DPS quite a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    adding PrEs that provide utility and defense to *every* class does not make wizards more likely to have the DC for their wail of the banshee, nor does it add massive DPS to the sorcerer's nukes. it does mean that drow won't be gimped for choosing a race that doesn't offer bonuses to hit points, shield blocking, and saves to a caster (as well as the option to decide to be an effective tank).
    They can roll a paladin or fighter if they want to be a tank. Tempest would help add threat as it increases damage output. Casters dont need any more damage love. Drow are the highest DC race - why would they need a PRE that jacks up their DCs which would further throw the balance of the game off between casters and melee?
    Last edited by Chai; 04-17-2012 at 05:01 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  18. #118
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    you don't seem to be getting it.

    ninja spy (or any of my other proposed PrEs with the possible exception of archmage for elves, who are hurting so bad for some reason to play them mechanically that i would still recommend it) do absolutely NOTHING for caster offense. they don't increase damage, they don't increase save DCs, they don't improve spell pen. they provide utility and defense options, which *any build* can use, rather than providing options that improve offense in one specific area that only certain builds can use.

    casters are already getting the ability to make extremely effective tanks. that is coming whether you like it or not. they won't need to make a fighter or a paladin or a barbarian to do it. they'll just have to be dwarf or warforged. as an added benefit, they'll also gain better shield blocking, better saves, and better HP.

    and i'm not worried about drow rogues making all other rogues obsolete. rather, my concern is that being able to take tempest:

    1) will not be any better than the ability of a half-orc race to choose ravager, or the ability of a human or half-elf to pick whichever other PrE they prefer, leading to people ignoring drow tempests regardless.

    2) is not limited to drow only, since all rangers can take it, and if tempest really *is* that much better than every other PrE we can expect to see half-orc, human, half-elf, etc rangers that take the tempest PrE and use their own racial PrE to supplement it.

    3) offers absolutely NOTHING to any drow build that does not focus on using two-weapon fighting.

    it is true that the vast majority of wizards and sorcerers, and most favored souls and clerics won't benefit from tempest. it is also true that drow archers won't benefit from tempest. and that drow bards (in many cases) or artificers (in most cases) or THF builds (in all cases) won't benefit from tempest.

    tempest looks like it will offer quite a bit to TWF builds. i see absolutely no reason to believe that other PrEs are going to be terrible either. my problem with drow getting tempest is that it is a gigantic, festering, steaming pile of 100% pure unadulterated grade 'A' suck for anyone who wants to make anything other than a TWF melee character.

    that is the problem.

    and again: while 20 HP is not going to make the difference between a playable build and an unplayable one, if the only discernable difference between two characters mechanically is that one has 20 more HP than the other, expect people to play the build that has 20 more HP. no matter how minor of an advantage it is, there is still a mechanical incentive to play the one that has 20 more HP. except that in this case, the ones that have 20 more HP likely also have bonuses elsewhere as well, like human versatility, or half-orc strength, or half-elf dilettante. and some of them even have more than 20 HP difference as well as getting other useful bonuses, like more power attack (WF) or better saving throws vs spells (dwarf).

    meanwhile, what is drow getting? bonuses to enchant saves, bonuses to throwing shurikens, and better cha and int. oh, and immunity to sleep. [sarcasm] oh goody. someone better hold me back, because i am *all over* that bonus to save vs spells that i can become immune to via the use of commonly-spammed defensive buffs. and sleep immunity! woohooo! oh joy, all those times i've had sleep used on my characters will be gone. why it must have happened at *least* two times in all the questing i've done. maybe even 3 times! thank goodness i won't be suffering from that any more. who needs 4 extra points of strength, or the ability to use a power boost at the same time as a haste boost, or an extra 3d6 sneak attack damage on every attack, i'm gonna be better at throwing shurikens than all (or at least most) of you! so there![/sarcasm]

    a race should offer a better reason than "yeah, it's not the best choice, but i want to play one anyways even though there are better options" to play it. and it should have that better reason (or reasons) for more than one kind of character.

  19. #119
    Community Member Entelech's Avatar
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    For my 2cp, Tempest is a weird choice. TWF is a highly stat-intensive combat mode no matter how you do it, since there are relatively few 1H weapons that let you sub out of Str for your damage stat, even if you use Dex to hit.

    A Tempest / Assassin Rogue with two Midnight Greetings, maybe. Or a Kensai 3 Tempest with a pair of Polycurse Daggers if you just want to proc everything into oblivion...

    /shrug.

    Given the Eberron lore of the Drow, I would make Acolyte of the Skin their racial PrE. The giants infused their favored Elven slaves with the essence of demons and elementals to create the Drow in the first place, after all. If Acolyte of the Skin follows PnP, it will be aimed more at a melee multiclass Sorcerer build anyway, and giving them the only spellcasting-centered racial PrE would offset their crippling build point issues competing against other races in the TR game.
    Give a man a fish, and he demands two more tomorrow.
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    Beat him unconscious with the fish, and it's comedy.

  20. #120
    Community Member Rydin_Dirtay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I think the reason why some are complaining about this is because they dont want the obvious best TWF racial to go to a race whose stat allocations they do not favor.
    Nope, that's not it.
    Khyber:Greenberry, Jemric, Qashta, Leuk, Thurradal + many others

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