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Thread: Khopesh fix

  1. #81
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    There is a difference between WAI or not, and the devs deciding that they would like something to work differently.
    It is all just semantics, but the fact remains that Khopeshs were F(ixed), which is why the deviate drastically from their PnP stats, and have been broken ever since.

    My point was that there are a lot of ways to bring about some semblance of balance, which you ignored.
    And it is self evident that you realize that.
    Last edited by Ungood; 03-07-2012 at 06:23 AM.

  2. #82
    Community Member Aaxeyu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    It is all just semantics, but the fact remains that Khopeshs were F(ixed), which is why the deviate drastically from their PnP stats, and have been broken ever since.
    They are not broken in any way.

  3. #83
    Community Member Feralthyrtiaq's Avatar
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    Default EZ Fix Makes EVeryone Happy :)

    All Weapons do 1d4, x2 20
    Skinned to look like whatever you want
    Enhancements to increase damage dice, crit range and mulitplier

    o wait....

  4. #84
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    especially with how much it deviates from it's pnp statics.
    And this is a problem because... why, exactly? I'm not clear on why mimicking a game as fundamentally and thoroughly broken as 3.5 PnP is supposed to be a good thing. I think DDO, on the whole, is a much better designed game than that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ungood View Post
    the fact remains that Khopeshs were F(ixed), which is why the deviate drastically from their PnP stats, and have been broken ever since.
    The fact remains that Khopeshes were fixed, which is why they deviate drastically from their PnP stats, and have been well-balanced, given the feat cost, ever since.

  5. #85
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    And this is a problem because... why, exactly? I'm not clear on why mimicking a game as fundamentally and thoroughly broken as 3.5 PnP is supposed to be a good thing. I think DDO, on the whole, is a much better designed game than that.

    The fact remains that Khopeshes were fixed, which is why they deviate drastically from their PnP stats, and have been well-balanced, given the feat cost, ever since.
    Did I ever mention how much I love your posts?

  6. #86
    Community Member KillEveryone's Avatar
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    I have no problem with the feat being required to get the special bonuses to the weapons. -4 to hit otherwise isn't a real penalty unless you are a less than full BAB class. I've been leaning toward having the feat tie into something a bit more.

    As far as DPS goes, not sure if messing with kopesh like this is necessary. Some may be tired of seeing kopeshes all around but there will always be one weapon that is top DPS that players are going to gravitate toward if they want DPS with other weapons being niche. If all weapons were balanced to put out the same amount of DPS, what is the point of haveing a variety of weapons.

    I like kopesh the way they are. I would like to see the other exotics get a bit better or offer something more unique.
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  7. #87
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillEveryone View Post
    I have no problem with the feat being required to get the special bonuses to the weapons. -4 to hit otherwise isn't a real penalty unless you are a less than full BAB class. I've been leaning toward having the feat tie into something a bit more.
    Attack bonus is more important than it used to be. Even a Fighter or Barb might not want to invest in Khopeshes without taking the feat.

    But if there's a balance issue with people using Khopesh without the feat, then the non-proficiency penalty should be increased. I think Khopesh is very well balanced with a feat cost. The balance without the feat cost is more questionable, and I could see addressing that. But it needs to be done carefully. The OP's suggestion is one that might look like a minor change, primarily aimed at increasing the non-proficiency penalty, but it's really a very severe nerf, which turns EWP: Khopesh into little more than a flavor feat.

  8. #88
    Community Member KillEveryone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    Attack bonus is more important than it used to be. Even a Fighter or Barb might not want to invest in Khopeshes without taking the feat.

    But if there's a balance issue with people using Khopesh without the feat, then the non-proficiency penalty should be increased. I think Khopesh is very well balanced with a feat cost. The balance without the feat cost is more questionable, and I could see addressing that. But it needs to be done carefully. The OP's suggestion is one that might look like a minor change, primarily aimed at increasing the non-proficiency penalty, but it's really a very severe nerf, which turns EWP: Khopesh into little more than a flavor feat.
    I'm not into the full idea of the OP.

    I just feel that the penalty to hit isn't as much as it should be or something else should tie the feat into the weapon. -4 to hit really isn't much considering how many bonuses we get to hit.
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  9. #89
    Founder Aesop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillEveryone View Post
    I'm not into the full idea of the OP.

    I just feel that the penalty to hit isn't as much as it should be or something else should tie the feat into the weapon. -4 to hit really isn't much considering how many bonuses we get to hit.
    So maybe make Khopesh without the Feat be 1d8 19-20 x2 and the EWP removes the -4 to attack and increases the Multiplier to x3

    would that be acceptable?

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  10. #90
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post

    The fact remains that Khopeshes were fixed, which is why they deviate drastically from their PnP stats, and have been well-balanced, given the feat cost, ever since.
    I hardly call it "fixed" or "well balanced" when theres one generic weapon type in the entire game that has a crit profile that is both better than just 20 and better than x2 at the same time.

    The "it costs a feat" stance is no justification whatsoever. There arent enough good feats in the game that provide anywhere near the overall DPS increase taking khopesh does. Even paladins and rogues who claim their builds are feat starved take khopesh.

    Theres no reason to not take it, none. That does not equate to balance.

    P.S. The part about 3.5 that actually would balance this is that there are so many feats inthe game that are equally as good or even better that its fine to have a better weapon like this. In DDO this kind of balance doesnt exist because theres no other feat to take, even on feat starved builds, that has the same impact as khopesh does.
    Last edited by Chai; 03-07-2012 at 03:28 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #91
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesop View Post
    So maybe make Khopesh without the Feat be 1d8 19-20 x2 and the EWP removes the -4 to attack and increases the Multiplier to x3

    would that be acceptable?

    Aesop
    Make it unequippable without the feat. Theres already no reason not to take khopesh.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  12. #92
    Community Member dkyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    I hardly call it "fixed" or "well balanced" when theres one generic weapon type in the entire game that has a crit profile that is both better than just 20 and better than x2 at the same time.
    This is a superficial argument, based on perceived patterns and not actual game impact. Khopesh could be 17-20/x2 or 20/x5 and be essentially the same DPS as 19-20/x3, and neither of those profiles would break your "rules".

    If you want to argue that % increase in DPS from Khopesh is overpowered, and too much for the feat cost, that would at least make sense. I would agree that there would be a point at which the % increase would be too much. But the notion that being better than both 20 and x2, somehow makes a weapon "overpowered", inherently, is simply absurd, to me.

    The "it costs a feat" stance is no justification whatsoever. There arent enough good feats in the game that provide anywhere near the overall DPS increase taking khopesh does. Even paladins and rogues who claim their builds are feat starved take khopesh.
    I'm still not clear why this argument doesn't also apply to PA, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, and Imp. Crit. EWP: Khopesh is weaker than all of those feats.

    But ultimately, shouldn't "it costs a feat" mean something? Ultimately, whatever Khopesh is I don't see how anything other than being worth that feat cost is a good design. Would you rather make Khopesh a Martial weapon, and balance it in that context?

    Theres no reason to not take it, none. That does not equate to balance.
    Sure there is:

    * non-TWF builds
    * blue-bar melees (especially pure FvS and Bards)
    * Finesse-based
    * Non-Human Rogues (taking the Past Life), Palis (taking Extend), and pure Barbarians (need Cleave)
    * S&B builds

    Kensai Fighers, and Fighter-splash builds, are really the only ones for whom Khopesh is a clear no-brainer. But if not Khopesh, it would just be a barely meaningful choice between Rapier and Scimitar. Is that really a "gain", when you lose the actually meaningful choice over feats for so many other TWF builds?


    I guess, ultimately, this thread strikes me as strange because not only was Khopesh hit the hardest by the recent(-ish) Fortification increases, but melee weapon DPS is barely relevant anymore, anyway. It's like if there was a thread saying that Bows (a Martial weapon) are overpowered, because they are clearly superior to Great Crossbows (an Exotic weapon). That may be true (overall), but nerfing Bows still isn't a good idea.

  13. #93
    Founder Aesop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    P.S. The part about 3.5 that actually would balance this is that there are so many feats inthe game that are equally as good or even better that its fine to have a better weapon like this. In DDO this kind of balance doesnt exist because theres no other feat to take, even on feat starved builds, that has the same impact as khopesh does.
    This is the part I'm most interested in.

    Why not introduce more feats that have similar dps increase (or similar power increase). Particularly ones that would not stack with the Khopesh increase nor each other... (ones that pertain to particular weapon types would do this)

    Book of Nine Swords also has some things that may be able to be adapted to this purpose as well

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  14. #94
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    This is a superficial argument, based on perceived patterns and not actual game impact. Khopesh could be 17-20/x2 or 20/x5 and be essentially the same DPS as 19-20/x3, and neither of those profiles would break your "rules".
    Right out the gate with the rules lawyering. Im pretty sure you understood what I meant, so no, it is not a superficial argument.

    Khopesh is so good as a generic weapon type they had to make a 2 hander that is 5D6 base damage 18-20 x3 and +10 enhancement bonus just to be close in DPS to khopesh.

    Superficial argument? I think not.

    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    I'm still not clear why this argument doesn't also apply to PA, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, and Imp. Crit. EWP: Khopesh is weaker than all of those feats.
    You just literally outlined the template that all "feat starved builds" take. My argument is literally that there are not enough feats in the game that are as good or to justify the OP nature of khopesh by saying it costs a feat. Even a paladin or rogue can take khopesh, plus all of the feats you just outlined. Not taking khopesh is a bad decision for optimizers. Period.

    And then to rail on 3.5 after the fact is so predictable. You could have your little crit profile increase in 3.5 on your TWF khopesh if you desired, (in fact there are exotics that are even better) because I could put together a melee charger build that roflpwns its DPS, without having to be anywhere near the same template (in fact, none of the feats would be the same) - since DDO does NOT have anywhere near that level of feat options, and even in the feat options it does have, most are nowhere near as good, we have one template that rules them all.

    Even a game as primitive as NWN doesnt suffer from this. Sure you could put together a 70 AB exotic weapon master with a huge crit profile and a tenacity that allows it to wade in and destroy that makes the optimizers grin in anticipation of being able to play it, right up to the point where it gets caught flat footed and shadowdanced to death, or it trys to take a few swings at an optimized bard/RDD/PM build and whifs on all attack rolls.

    This is what I mean when I say it would be more balanced if there were more feats that were equal in power. Right now its the cookie cutter khopesh build. Everything else is less DPS unless you farmed an eSOS, and even then, there are situations where generic khopesh still wins.
    Last edited by Chai; 03-07-2012 at 04:26 PM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  15. #95
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesop View Post
    This is the part I'm most interested in.

    Why not introduce more feats that have similar dps increase (or similar power increase). Particularly ones that would not stack with the Khopesh increase nor each other... (ones that pertain to particular weapon types would do this)

    Book of Nine Swords also has some things that may be able to be adapted to this purpose as well

    Aesop
    Yeah I agree. Melee builds right now basically have to take the same 7(ish) feats or be less powerful.

    Id be more satisfied with about 30 or 40 feats that all have the same (roughly) level of effectivness, with like 7 or 8 effective templates, which would branch off about 50 different variations - which would break this cookie cutter scenario we are locked into for melee where if it isnt khopesh, its second rate.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  16. #96
    Community Member Aaxeyu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Khopesh is so good as a generic weapon type they had to make a 2 hander that is 5D6 base damage 18-20 x3 and +10 enhancement bonus just to be close in DPS to khopesh.
    There are other differences between THF and TWF, so that argument is just silly.





    Why did this thread not end at "buff the other exotic weapons"?

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaxeyu View Post
    There are other differences between THF and TWF, so that argument is just silly.





    Why did this thread not end at "buff the other exotic weapons"?
    Buffing other exotic weapons is a place to start but not an ending point.

    Adding in other Feat that compare to EWP in terms of power then would be another avenue to explore.

    I'd like to see Long Sword be used more often (it is rather iconic) so perhaps a Feat that only works with Long Sword and grants a benefit that makes it comparable to Khopesh in terms of power. maybe not something that is equivalent to Khopesh but something near its power level.

    I don't know what right now so don't ask.

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  18. #98
    Community Member Ungood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Right out the gate with the rules lawyering. Im pretty sure you understood what I meant, so no, it is not a superficial argument.
    Don't be so sure. One should know who they are dealing with and what their stand is, and how far they are willing to go to defend it. Case in point, this is where Dkyle is coming from.

    Quote Originally Posted by dkyle View Post
    The fact remains that Khopeshes were fixed, which is why they deviate drastically from their PnP stats, and have been well-balanced, given the feat cost, ever since.
    Otherwise Chai, you have some great points, I hope they do not to waste against the wrong audience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aesop View Post
    Buffing other exotic weapons is a place to start but not an ending point.
    It's not even an option sadly.

    When you consider that the main reason why Nerfing Khopesh is not viable, mainly because there are too many varieties of them, from Green steel and Alchemical to the vast many named and epic ones in the game, it would be a nightmare to try and balance them to other exotics.

    Equally so, it would be a nightmare to try and buff existing weapons for the exact same reason.

    Pretty much, any revision to balance things out would need to be done at "Game" level or "character" level. Mucking with the weapons themselves would just be a huge problem.

    So, harsher penalties for not being proficient need to be put, like -4 damage as well as -4 to hit. But this would affect all weapons, would be a start.

    Buffs, Feats, and Enhancements that favor other weapons, or specific weapons, to bring them up to par with Khopesh in the hands of specific builds and races. Whirling Steel Strike comes to mind as an example of a good try.

    Overall, any changes that happened would need to be done in that direction, so discussing the weapon itself is pretty much moot.
    Last edited by Ungood; 03-07-2012 at 09:13 PM. Reason: Fixed Quotes and SP&G

  19. #99
    The Hatchery Scraap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesop View Post
    So maybe make Khopesh without the Feat be 1d8 19-20 x2 and the EWP removes the -4 to attack and increases the Multiplier to x3

    would that be acceptable?

    Aesop
    I could get behind that one.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesop View Post
    So maybe make Khopesh without the Feat be 1d8 19-20 x2 and the EWP removes the -4 to attack and increases the Multiplier to x3

    would that be acceptable?

    Aesop
    +1, well said.
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