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  1. #1
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    Default First Rogue - Critique Please

    Heya,

    I'm going to TR my TWF Kensai into a rogue - int based. I want to play an assassin type because it will be a different form of gameplay than I have become accustomed to.

    I'm thinking Helf or Halfling.

    Do we get to keep tomes after next update?

    Half Elf Stats (34):
    Str: 16
    Con: 14
    Dex: 15
    Int: 16 ------> level ups

    or Halfling:
    Str: 12
    Con: 14
    Dex: 15
    Int: 18 ------> level ups

    Half-elf = more burst dps, +1 to hit, +2 damage, more hp
    Halfling = better to hit and damage while sneak attacking, better saves

    Feats:
    1) Toughness
    1) Artificer Dilly
    3) TWF
    6) Khopesh -> maybe switch to lightening reflexes at 20 and uses a Kronz cruel
    9) ITWF
    10) Improved Evasion
    12) Improve Crit: Slash
    13) Opportunist
    15) GTWF
    16) Skill Mastery
    18) Power Attack
    19) Slippery Mind

    Assassinate DC should be around 47
    Int: (16/18 base, +5 level ups, +6 item, +3 exceptional, +3 tome, +2 capstone, +2 ship, +1 Helf dilli enhancement, +1 human versatility if Helf, +2 yugo) = 40/41
    DC: 10 base + 20 levels rogue + 15 int bonus + 2 item = 47

    I copied and pasted this info, so it could be wrong. I assume a DC of 47 will be pretty effective, and I could potentially improve it with a +4 tome or litany.

    How high does a rogues UMD get - do you hit 39 easy enough - or hard with only base charisma?

    Weapons:
    Min2 and Lightening2 Khops while levelling
    Midnight greetings and Kronz Cruel for Trash and crafted DR breaker and devil's ruin slotted kronz for bosses.

    Personally, I like the look of the halfling, but am open to your thoughts.

    Thank you!
    Last edited by BoBoDaClown; 02-22-2012 at 04:54 AM.
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  2. #2
    Community Member scottmike0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoBoDaClown View Post
    Heya,

    I'm going to TR my TWF Kensai into a rogue - int based. I want to play an assassin type because it will be a different form of gameplay than I have become accustomed to.

    I'm thinking Helf or Halfling.

    Do we get to keep tomes after next update?

    Half Elf Stats (34):
    Str: 16 (+2 level ups here
    Con: 14 (+ 1 level up here)
    Dex: 15
    Int: 16 ( + 2 level ups here)

    or Halfling:
    Str: 14 (+ 2 level ups here)
    Con: 15( and 1-2 here )
    Dex: 15
    Int: 16 (no need to boost int i mean its more of optimal but if you want i'd put 1-2 here)

    Half-elf = more burst dps, +1 to hit, +2 damage, more hp
    Halfling = better to hit and damage while sneak attacking, better saves

    Feats:
    1) Khop -> maybe switch to lightening reflexes at 20 and uses a Kronz cruel
    1) Artificer Dilly
    3) TWF
    6) PA
    9) ITWF
    10) Improved Evasion
    12) Improve Crit: Slash
    13) Opportunist
    15) GTWF
    16) Skill Mastery
    18) Toughness
    19) Slippery Mind

    Assassinate DC should be around 47
    Int: (16/18 base, +5 level ups, +6 item, +3 exceptional, +3 tome, +2 capstone, +2 ship, +1 Helf dilli enhancement, +1 human versatility if Helf, +2 yugo) = 40/41
    DC: 10 base + 20 levels rogue + 15 int bonus + 2 item = 47

    I copied and pasted this info, so it could be wrong. I assume a DC of 47 will be pretty effective, and I could potentially improve it with a +4 tome or litany.

    How high does a rogues UMD get - do you hit 39 easy enough - or hard with only base charisma?

    Weapons:
    Min2 and Lightening2 Khops while levelling
    Midnight greetings and Kronz Cruel for Trash and crafted DR breaker and devil's ruin slotted kronz for bosses.

    Personally, I like the look of the halfling, but am open to your thoughts.

    Thank you!
    why will you put a halfling with a low strength, come on man at least 14 is base for almost every character i have.
    , anyways I'd say go human for the extra feat, because sometimes that extra feat is very worth while, and who wouldn't love extra skill points as well.
    Just remember to cast divine power when it really deals out the damage
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  3. #3
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    halfling of course! much cooler. (OK OK helf might have some cool stuff...)

    OK, TBH, I never got the point of int based rogues. An assassinate of 42 is enough for almost anything in the game, save for say stuff like Orthons in eDA. Don't forget that to assassinate you need good sneak (hide and move silently) or mobs will simply see you and you can't assassinate even with super high DC.

    Seems to me (again I am not int-rogue expert) you should go more dex based, use rapiers and short swords (we don't use the GS much anyway at epic lvl). Indeed start with high int, but put the lvl ups into dex.
    Unless of course you already have GS kohpeshis.

    Re UMD. Yes you can get it to 39 with even starting 10.

    maybe do: 12, 16, 16, 16, 8, 10. Adjust according to your +3 tomes. With lvl ups into dex. Then get the +7 Illusionist's Garb and with the rest of your list of int buffs, should get you pretty high. Even with halfling.

    your spot will stink until you can put on a +6 wis item. I made a wis GS necklace before I TR'd. It's a tier II item, so it's practically free to make.

    Just my opinion.

    Edit: I agree about the 14 str. Plan ahead with your +3s. like: 13, 16, 15, 16, 8, 10 or something.

    hf
    Last edited by SSFWEl; 02-22-2012 at 03:02 AM.
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  4. #4
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    Default Umd

    Don't worry too much about UMD - failure is a funny part of the game ;-)

    But let's count basics:

    easily achievable:
    skill points: 23
    Rogue Skill Boost IV: +5
    Skill Mastery: +1
    Greater Heroism: +4

    total = 33

    achievable:
    Voice of the Master (or another luck bonus): +1
    The Big Top: +1 (+3 on epic)

    total = 35+

    ... and your charisma
    8 base
    +6 item
    +2 ship buff
    +2 tome

    is +4 you need to 39 total not counting exceptional charisma skill boosts and competence bonuses (the whole list is there: http://ddowiki.com/page/Use_magic_device)

  5. #5
    The Hatchery stoerm's Avatar
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    You can't take Exotic Weapon Proficiency at level one, it requires a BAB of 1.

    Will you be able to hit mobs with a starting STR 12? Power attack on (-5 penalty to hit), and even with TWF you'll have -4 penalty on both hands.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottmike0 View Post
    why will you put a halfling with a low strength, come on man at least 14 is base for almost every character i have.
    , anyways I'd say go human for the extra feat, because sometimes that extra feat is very worth while, and who wouldn't love extra skill points as well.
    Just remember to cast divine power when it really deals out the damage
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    Halfling = -1 damage compared to a 14 str toon (they get +1 to hit).

    Human might be worth doing - be similar to Half Elf really.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoerm View Post
    You can't take Exotic Weapon Proficiency at level one, it requires a BAB of 1.

    Will you be able to hit mobs with a starting STR 12? Power attack on (-5 penalty to hit), and even with TWF you'll have -4 penalty on both hands.
    I forgot about the BAB issue. I need Khops for my greensteel Khops at level 12. I need to tinker with my feat order.

    I wouldn't be using Power Attack until the late levels - whether that can be used on a low str build I'm not sure. Removing it would give room for Insightful reflexes.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoBoDaClown View Post
    Weapons:
    Min2 and Lightening2 Khops while levelling
    Midnight greetings and Kronz Cruel for Trash and crafted DR breaker and devil's ruin slotted kronz for bosses.
    Thank you!
    What will you use before GS weaps? It hardly worth the feat for reusing your khops.

    For rogue, you really want to build Rad2 rapier before TRs. With this low-strength rogue, build short sword for second hand (avoiding -2 attack because lack of OTW feat).

    Think about some good low-lvl two-handed weapons (i.e. Carnifex or Hellstroke Great Axe) if you have wizard in your party (masters touch)

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSFWEl View Post
    Seems to me (again I am not int-rogue expert) you should go more dex based, use rapiers and short swords (we don't use the GS much anyway at epic lvl). Indeed start with high int, but put the lvl ups into dex.
    Unless of course you already have GS kohpeshis.
    I have greensteel khops.

    I personally wouldn't make a dex build - there are more ways to boost str, but that's just me.

    I will make a radiance weapon.

    Thanks for the feedback.
    Last edited by BoBoDaClown; 02-22-2012 at 03:30 AM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JV_cz View Post
    What will you use before GS weaps? It hardly worth the feat for reusing your khops.

    For rogue, you really want to build Rad2 rapier before TRs. With this low-strength rogue, build short sword for second hand (avoiding -2 attack because lack of OTW feat).

    Think about some good low-lvl two-handed weapons (i.e. Carnifex or Hellstroke Great Axe) if you have wizard in your party (masters touch)
    Thanks for the UMD feedback.

    Do Artis get Master touch? if I have the Arti Dilly I could master's touch Carnifex. Otherwise I will just craft some rapier/ss combos for the early levels.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoBoDaClown View Post
    Thanks for the UMD feedback.

    Do Artis get Master touch? if I have the Arti Dilly I could master's touch Carnifex. Otherwise I will just craft some rapier/ss combos for the early levels.
    Name: Master's Touch
    Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1

    If you cast it from scroll, the problem is, you cannot hold two-handed weapon in your hands in the same time.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JV_cz View Post
    Name: Master's Touch
    Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
    I don't know where you have that from, but I just logged into one of my artis and she has master's touch.

    (if it's from the wiki, it needs updating)
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dandonk View Post
    I don't know where you have that from, but I just logged into one of my artis and she has master's touch.

    (if it's from the wiki, it needs updating)
    Yes, wiki. http://ddowiki.com/page/Master%27s_Touch
    Thx for correction.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoBoDaClown View Post
    I will make a radiance weapon.
    If you make a slashing radiance weapon, I suggest to make a Kukri. Firstly, because it has the better crit profile than the Khopesh, and Radiance procs on crits.
    Secondly, because it is a light weapon and can serve as an effective +2 to hit when wielded in the off-hand.
    And lastly, because it doesn't need to be MT'd, as long as you wear a Midnight Greetings, which grants Kukri proficiency (not only to itself).

    Re: UMD.
    Personally, I don't like to make my UMD score dependent on Skill Boosts (it would be HV IV, in the OPs case, which would make the number of boosts even more valuable). However, I am very happy that my base 9 Charisma Halfling can hit 40 UMD with the help of one single gear swap (a ring with +6 Charisma and Persuasion does the same as an Epic Big Top (charisma-slotted), or a GS item: +6 UMD).
    Due to UMD, you will also be able to UMD the Master's Touch scrolls.

    Re: Helf vs. Halfing.
    If I were to reroll Meinir (my pure Halfling Rogue), I'd probably reroll her as a Helf or Human (mainly because of the HV + Haste Boost interaction). Either your build in the OP, or a Str-based with decent Int, i.e. something very close to your build.
    The 16 Str will help you while leveling quite a bit.
    Btw: The Halfling has roughly the same to-hit as the HElf, as long as he uses a weapon which has the finesse property, such as EMG. (That's excluding situational boosts to Str, ofc.)
    While leveling, I'd either pick the Fighter Dilly (for some convenience with Radiance Kukris) or the Barbarian Dilly.

    Personally, I like the look of the halfling, but am open to your thoughts.
    I couldn't agree more. Helves look like Drag-Kings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JV_cz View Post
    If you cast it from scroll, the problem is, you cannot hold two-handed weapon in your hands in the same time.
    Hilarious.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by karl_k0ch View Post
    If you make a slashing radiance weapon, I suggest to make a Kukri.

    What about a scimmy? Scimmy main hand, emg offhand (at 20). I heard Helves get scimmy use - is that right?

    Personally, I don't like to make my UMD score dependent on Skill Boosts (it would be HV IV, in the OPs case, which would make the number of boosts even more valuable).

    I agree - I have a +6 cha skills item.

    Re: Helf vs. Halfing.
    If I were to reroll Meinir (my pure Halfling Rogue), I'd probably reroll her as a Helf or Human (mainly because of the HV + Haste Boost interaction). Either your build in the OP, or a Str-based with decent Int, i.e. something very close to your build.
    The 16 Str will help you while leveling quite a bit.

    I'm a liitle worried about my reflex save. I also thought the Halfling SA damage would add up to a greater amount than the boosts over the course of a quest - espeically as you get the boosts anyway as a rogue - you just can't use them concurrently. Your thoughts?.

    Btw: The Halfling has roughly the same to-hit as the HElf, as long as he uses a weapon which has the finesse property, such as EMG. (That's excluding situational boosts to Str, ofc.)

    I'm not sure what you mean about finessable - don't halflings get +1 to hit to all weapons - or is it only light weapons?
    Thanks for the feedback!
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  17. #17
    The Hatchery karl_k0ch's Avatar
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    What about a scimmy? Scimmy main hand, emg offhand (at 20). I heard Helves get scimmy use - is that right?
    Unfortunately, I don't have any solid info on that. Iirc, HElves get no weapon enhancements at all. (But I might very well be wrong on this as I do not have first hand info.)

    I'm a liitle worried about my reflex save. I also thought the Halfling SA damage would add up to a greater amount than the boosts over the course of a quest - espeically as you get the boosts anyway as a rogue - you just can't use them concurrently. Your thoughts?.
    Don't worry.

    very conservative Dex breakdown: 15 base, 2 tome, 6 item, 1 enhancement, 2 ship: 26 Dex = +8 mod

    12 class
    8 dex
    2 luck
    5 resistance
    4 GH
    ---
    31 Reflex, excluding the temporary +6 of uncanny and the situational +6 of Trap sense.

    One other issue I'd look at when comparing the two races is APs. I suggest to compare them in an Enhancement planner (eg this one http://ddo.motd.ru/planner), and to see for yourself which one actually offers more tasty stuff. I decided not to fit in Cunning and Guile IV on Meinir, as they are just too costly.

    I'm not sure what you mean about finessable - don't halflings get +1 to hit to all weapons - or is it only light weapons?
    Halflings do get the +1 with all weapons. I was not referring to light weapons in general, but actually to the item property Finesse: http://ddowiki.com/page/Finesse, which can be found on the Epic Midnight Greetings and allows your halfling build to use Dex as the to-hit stat for EMG, should the Dex of 15 + boosts be greater than the Str of 12 + boosts.
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    Thanks for info re: finesse.

    Hmmmm 31 reflex seems a little low. Insightful reflexs instead of PA might be the way to go.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoBoDaClown View Post
    I'm a liitle worried about my reflex save. I also thought the Halfling SA damage would add up to a greater amount than the boosts over the course of a quest - espeically as you get the boosts anyway as a rogue - you just can't use them concurrently. Your thoughts?.
    I have some experiences with dex 15 assassin (+2 tome, +2 ship buffs, GH and alike) with +6 dex item and Uncanny Awareness Parasitic Breastplate and he can walk through almost any trap in the game incl. epic.
    Last edited by JV_cz; 02-22-2012 at 04:56 AM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSFWEl View Post
    An assassinate of 42 is enough for almost anything in the game
    not... really... not even in normal content.
    If assassinate is a big part of your gameplay, definitely roll up INT and go Human/Half. Your to-hit may be a problem but you can supplement with HV attack bonus. Also, once you get eMG, you shouldn't have to worry about hitting anything (especially if you have tharnes goggles, you have those right? or the tinker set?).

    Looks like a solid build. There's lots of options out there. I would say go make a radiance khopesh (I prefer rapiers but you already have a stock of khopeshes).

    Glad to see these are becoming more popular.
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