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  1. #1
    Community Member Caged's Avatar
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    Default Arti Past Life Active feat stack with Capstone?

    Past Life Active Feat:
    "You recall more about your past life as an artificer. When you use a rod, staff, or wand, you have a 15% chance to retain essence and not expend a charge".


    Capstone:
    "Artificer Arcane Empowerment: The patterns of the most complex magical formulae are like children's drawings to you. You treat any non-scroll activated equipped item that casts spells (such as wands, rods, armor, or other activated items) as if they were staves, increasing their caster level to equal yours as well as increasing Save DC's to (10 + your Intelligence bonus + level of spell) if it would be an improvement. These increases are applied after Artificer Knowledge, so do not stack."

    Does that mean the feat will work on anything at level 20 or still only rod/staff/wand?

  2. #2
    Community Member easyaction's Avatar
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    I'm really not sure that question is answerable. Raising the caster level of the spell in an item has nothing to do with your % to not expend a charge. So....yes they work at the same time, but no they don't stack. Hope that helps.

  3. #3
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by easyaction View Post
    I'm really not sure that question is answerable. Raising the caster level of the spell in an item has nothing to do with your % to not expend a charge. So....yes they work at the same time, but no they don't stack. Hope that helps.
    he's referring to the fact that the past life feat (and retain essence) works on only rods, staves, and wands... but the capstone makes things count as staves even if they aren't

    anyways, retain essence works with the capstone, and the active feat is *supposed* to stack with retain essence... so it *should* work. can't say i've tested it personally, or seen anyone test it, though.

  4. #4
    Community Member Calebro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    he's referring to the fact that the past life feat (and retain essence) works on only rods, staves, and wands... but the capstone makes things count as staves even if they aren't

    anyways, retain essence works with the capstone, and the active feat is *supposed* to stack with retain essence... so it *should* work. can't say i've tested it personally, or seen anyone test it, though.
    Actually, it shouldn't work.
    Retain Essence works for rods, staves, and wands.
    The capstone treats non-scroll activated items as staves insofar as spellcasting is concerned. The difference here is that in PnP, you use a staff as your caster level with your own stats/DCs/etc unless otherwise noted by the staff. This isn't true in DDO unless you have the Arty capstone.
    In PnP, when you used a staff to cast a spell (and *only* a staff, no other items worked this way) you would use the caster level and DC from the staff unless your own caster level and DC were higher. If your own were higher, then you could use those instead. This isn't the way that staves work in DDO.
    When it says that "you treat it as a staff" it's referring to staves the way that they work in PnP, not that it acts as a staff for all other in-game purposes.
    It's PnP terminology on an effect that works differently than in PnP.

    The fact that you're treating a wand/rod/armor/other activated items as a staff for spellcasting purposes doesn't magically mean that it *becomes* a staff. It's still not a staff.
    Retain Essence works on rods, staves, and wands.
    That's it. At least, that's the way that it's supposed to work. The fact that Retain Essence works with the capstone allowing other activated items should actually be considered a bug. But it's a bug in our favor, so no one is complaining.
    Last edited by Calebro; 02-16-2012 at 09:37 PM.
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  5. #5
    Community Member Tuney's Avatar
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    Wasn't there a change not long ago where not caster level but DC of spells from staves now use the 'caster's stat' if it is higher? Not to sure about caster level... but for all intents and purposes that just means the silly staff of Arcane power might be caster level as well. (FYI Staff of Arcane power thinks you are a wizard thus uses INT for its DC and not CHA if you are a bard)

    Also I haven't check this in a few months. But was after Arti's came around so the change probbly came in update 12. The wording was probbly something about two handed staves and blah blah.

  6. #6
    Community Member Caged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calebro View Post
    Actually, it shouldn't work.
    Retain Essence works for rods, staves, and wands.
    The capstone treats non-scroll activated items as staves insofar as spellcasting is concerned. The difference here is that in PnP, you use a staff as your caster level with your own stats/DCs/etc unless otherwise noted by the staff. This isn't true in DDO unless you have the Arty capstone.
    In PnP, when you used a staff to cast a spell (and *only* a staff, no other items worked this way) you would use the caster level and DC from the staff unless your own caster level and DC were higher. If your own were higher, then you could use those instead. This isn't the way that staves work in DDO.
    When it says that "you treat it as a staff" it's referring to staves the way that they work in PnP, not that it acts as a staff for all other in-game purposes.
    It's PnP terminology on an effect that works differently than in PnP.

    The fact that you're treating a wand/rod/armor/other activated items as a staff for spellcasting purposes doesn't magically mean that it *becomes* a staff. It's still not a staff.
    Retain Essence works on rods, staves, and wands.
    That's it. At least, that's the way that it's supposed to work. The fact that Retain Essence works with the capstone allowing other activated items should actually be considered a bug. But it's a bug in our favor, so no one is complaining.
    So currently there is a good chance the past life feat works with the capstone, just need someone to test it

  7. #7
    Community Member Calebro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caged View Post
    So currently there is a good chance the past life feat works with the capstone, just need someone to test it
    Retain Essence, the class feature, works with the capstone (even though it's not supposed to, strictly speaking), and as far as I know the active past life feat is supposed to stack with the class feature, so it should all work together. My arty hasn't TR'd yet, so I can't even swap a feat to test it.
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  8. #8
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calebro View Post
    Retain Essence, the class feature, works with the capstone (even though it's not supposed to, strictly speaking), and as far as I know the active past life feat is supposed to stack with the class feature, so it should all work together. My arty hasn't TR'd yet, so I can't even swap a feat to test it.
    why shouldn't it work? it says you treat things like staves. yes, it goes on to give further explanation, but it doesn't say it doesn't treat things like staves in any other way, so why shouldn't it treat things like staves in every way?

  9. #9
    Community Member Calebro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    why shouldn't it work? it says you treat things like staves. yes, it goes on to give further explanation, but it doesn't say it doesn't treat things like staves in any other way, so why shouldn't it treat things like staves in every way?
    Wow. Really? I already answered that, and I did it in a post quoting and responding to none other than yourself.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calebro View Post
    Wow. Really? I already answered that, and I did it in a post quoting and responding to none other than yourself.
    yes. but what you answered is not what the capstone actually says.

    the capstone says it counts as a staff, then tells us how a staff works. it doesn't say "you treat it as a staff according to the PnP rules but only for the purpose of caster level and stat modifier" anywhere that i can see.

    if you treat it as a staff, and get something that applies to staves, then the something that applies to staves should apply to the something that you treat as a staff as well.

  11. #11
    Community Member Calebro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    yes. but what you answered is not what the capstone actually says.

    the capstone says it counts as a staff, then tells us how a staff works. it doesn't say "you treat it as a staff according to the PnP rules but only for the purpose of caster level and stat modifier" anywhere that i can see.

    if you treat it as a staff, and get something that applies to staves, then the something that applies to staves should apply to the something that you treat as a staff as well.
    And descriptions are NEVER wrong or misleading.

    What thew capstone says is archaic terminology that works differently in this game, which is where the confusion comes from. This isn't the first time it has happened.
    You're rules lawyering, when this is a case not of RAW, but rather RAI.

    Oh, and by the way, Deadly Weapons should make and eSoS do 7d6 damage, not 10d6, which is why it's broken.
    The description couldn't possibly be wrong though.
    Last edited by Calebro; 02-18-2012 at 02:12 AM.
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  12. #12
    Community Member sacredguyver's Avatar
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    So far, my Artificer has never had a charge saved from the "Retain Charge" feat when using a clicky on an item that's affected by "Arcane Empowerment" (excluding wands). That tells me that since the granted feat and enhancement don't always stack, then the past life feat and enhancement won't always stack either (again, saying wands are the exception).

    It's possible the capstone checks for "item that casts a spell" and "exclude potion and scroll." The Retain Charge effect of the active past life feat and granted feat would check for both "does it cast a spell" and "is it a rod, staff, or wand. Exclude all else." Both the enhancement and feats are looking at what type of item they are first, then deciding whether they should apply.


    And the above should be useful if I didn't misread any of the previous posts or the intent behind them. Considering how most of the text blurred together, it's unlikely I got things right. :\
    Quote Originally Posted by macubrae View Post
    A Dwarf's beard should be thick, strong and long enough to tuck under your belt (to keep kobolds from swinging on it and giants from swinging us by them).


  13. #13
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calebro View Post
    And descriptions are NEVER wrong or misleading.

    What thew capstone says is archaic terminology that works differently in this game, which is where the confusion comes from. This isn't the first time it has happened.
    You're rules lawyering, when this is a case not of RAW, but rather RAI.

    Oh, and by the way, Deadly Weapons should make and eSoS do 7d6 damage, not 10d6, which is why it's broken.
    The description couldn't possibly be wrong though.
    you have a dev quote anywhere that tells you the devs intended it to not work with retain essence?

    because as far as i can tell, the only description of how it's supposed to work that we have is the one quoted. sure, it could be wrong. but unless there's some reason to believe it should be wrong, i don't see any reason to assume that something working as described is anything other than WAI.

    now, if you have eladrin or tolero or some other dev saying "that should be working differently", then fine. but if not, there's no reason to assume it's not WAI when the description of what happens and the actual event match up.

  14. #14
    Community Member Calebro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    you have a dev quote anywhere that tells you the devs intended it to not work with retain essence?

    because as far as i can tell, the only description of how it's supposed to work that we have is the one quoted. sure, it could be wrong. but unless there's some reason to believe it should be wrong, i don't see any reason to assume that something working as described is anything other than WAI.

    now, if you have eladrin or tolero or some other dev saying "that should be working differently", then fine. but if not, there's no reason to assume it's not WAI when the description of what happens and the actual event match up.
    It's not that the description is wrong. The description is correct, but you're reading more into it than you should.
    My reading the intention of it not working is one based in how things go in PnP, which is what this game is modeled after. Following the rules, it should not work.

    The fact that it says "treated like a staff" is the archaic PnP part that causes the confusion. If they simply left that line out and described the how the effect functioned we wouldn't be debating this. But they left it in, to try and give it the PnP flavor. Except that's not how staves work here, so it made it confusing.
    Quote Originally Posted by d20srd staffs
    Staff Descriptions

    Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.

    This means that staffs are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster. Because they use the wielder’s ability score to set the save DC for the spell, spells from a staff are often harder to resist than ones from other magic items, which use the minimum ability score required to cast the spell. Not only are aspects of the spell dependant on caster level (range, duration, and so on) potentially higher, but spells from a staff are harder to dispel and have a better chance of overcoming a target’s spell resistance.

    Furthermore, a staff can hold a spell of any level, unlike a wand, which is limited to spells of 4th level or lower. The minimum caster level of a staff is 8th. Standard staffs are described below.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artificer Arcane Empowerment
    The patterns of the most complex magical formulae are like children's drawings to you. You treat any non-scroll activated equipped item that casts spells (such as wands, rods, armor, or other activated items) as if they were staves, increasing their caster level to equal yours as well as increasing Save DC's to (10 + your Intelligence bonus + level of spell) if it would be an improvement. These increases are applied after Artificer Knowledge, so do not stack
    Notice that entire description is referencing casting a spell from an item, and caster levels, etc. It is referencing the way that a staff works in PnP. It is referencing the way that it worked in the game that this was modeled after.

    The description and the event *don't* match up. You only *think* they do because you don't understand the interactions. You only *think* they do because they left flavor text that was inappropriate in. You're actually seeing an additional effect.

    The rest of your post is more rules lawyering, as I said above. We shouldn't need Eladrin or someone else to come and clarify. Heck, when they show up to clarify you guys all jump down their throats and start 4000 different threads about how things should never get nerfed, even when that "nerf" is a bug fix.
    This is a bug, but it works in our favor and it isn't damaging in any way, so I doubt it will be given any attention.

    Let me give you a real world example of why this shouldn't work:
    Money is used to get onto the bus.
    Credit cards are treated like money.
    Can you use a credit card to get on the bus? No, because credit cards aren't used to get on the bus. Money is. Just because one thing is treated like another in some respects doesn't mean it magically becomes that thing when that thing is specifically required.

    Quote Originally Posted by Retain Essence
    Whenever an Artificer uses a rod, staff, or wand, the character has a chance to not expend a charge. The percentage chance is equal to (Artificer Level)/2 + Int Modifier + Enhancement Modifier + Effect Modifier.
    If RE was intended to work on all non-scroll activated items, there would be a mention of it in the description that stated "at level 20 artificer, this list also includes...."
    But there isn't.
    RE is intended to only work on wands, staves, and rods. Your GS clicky is none of the above. Your RoSS is none of the above.
    The fact that you can retain those essences is a bug.
    Last edited by Calebro; 02-18-2012 at 03:42 AM.
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