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  1. #641
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    The way you guys play, I would seriously consider focusing more on charms, hypnotism, ottos, hold person, command, web, sonic blast... Even if you fail two or three times, charming one giant or ogre will help keep the aggro off of your party. A sorcerer has plenty of SPs to spam charm until he hits one. Same for web.

    I would also consider Enlarge feat for one caster so you can charm from further away while the monsters fight themselves... Then you sweep in and mop up the survivors.

    Effective use of the CC spells available to you will help you from taking damage and aggro.

  2. #642
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    With the second failure in the Tanglewood Chain, Tukcc is re-examining his options for hand to hand fighting. He has always depended on his Scimitar, and it has served him well, but the Hobgoblins they faced are not the least bit warry of it next to the power of the spellcasters that attack them.

    There are a couple of ideas he will be testing and top of the list was inspired by Kierik.

    I have been listening and thinking long and hard about the "rest and recouperation" theme Cogs has been filling my ear with. Grondley and Kierik have both expressed agreement, but did not want to make use of "Shrines".

    Shrines have always been a sore spot with me as I believe they detract from the classic role of the Cleric. So far we've done a decent job of playing "Classic", and I don't want to give in to DDO Playstyle.
    With the party currently at 4, and the only Divine character on the Front line, we have been experimenting with Healing Potions.
    The guideline is Light Heal Potions only, and limited to 1 "Stack". These are practically useless in Combat, but is an acceptable stand-in for a Cleric's healing abilities between encounters.
    I begin to view these as the characters "First Aid Kit". An essential addition to anyones backpack.

    The other night I was thinking about Cogs comments about resting, and I realized that with the "First Aid Kit", a Party could "rest" just about anywhere there wasn't immediate danger.
    Taking this further, if that First Aid Kit were to include Incense and other materials for Meditation, a Caster might be able to regain some of his Spell Power as well.
    In effect, this would be a weaker version of "Shrining" that might be acceptable in our playstyle, and it could be accomplished anywhere and at any time.

    I would like to hear comments about this.

    What I also need to know now is what are the sources of the Mnemonic Potions. Can they be purchased? Where?
    Are they found in breakables, or just in Chests, or in End Rewards?

    Next on my list is Traps. This topic will always be of concern because at Elite Difficulty, the DC will quickly outpace a characters skill if not monitored closely.

    (The following contains a lot of things that are merely assumptions on my part.)
    (If counterpoints exist, I'd like to hear about them)

    Cogs does not want to do "statisics", so I try to roleplay info as much as I can.
    The DC for 4th Level Quests is 18.
    This means 18 for Spot and Search, and 28 for Disarm.

    Cogs has no trouble Spotting things, but he has reported that sometimes he just can't succeed in Search without "concentrating" with his skill boosts.
    It MIGHT be that a small percentage of traps are higher quality and thus are tougher to detect and disarm.
    These might have a Search DC 1-3 points above the Spot.

    As long as a characters Spot and Search skills are about even, this should only be a minor problem.

    If a Rogue has 18 in Disarm, he should have a 50-50 chance to Disarm a Trap at 4th Level. (Roll an 11 or better)
    If not Disarmed, the Control Box should explode 60% of the time. (If the roll was 6 or less)

    When 7th Level is reached, a Rogues Skills can be raised by just 1 point each, while the Trap DC will raise by 3.
    He will need 2 more points to stay "par". In Spot and Search, this may mean the difference between Finding and Not Finding a Trap.
    In Disarm, this means a general -10% decrease in successfully defeating the Trap.

    For Rogues who do not "Gear" the DDO way, Trapping In Elite, 2 Quest levels below Party Level has required an "Administrative" offset of 5 in Spot and Search using the DDO Store purchased Hood.
    Disarm skill has been the responsibility of the Rogue with Feats and Enhancements, the more he commits to Disarm Skill, the better his chances to defeat it.

    That's my rant for the week. Countepoints are appreciated.
    Last edited by intruder1; 11-10-2012 at 08:36 AM.

  3. #643
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    Default Counterpoints

    Quote Originally Posted by kerikofgreyhawk
    ...is that I really don't like shrines, and I don't like potions much either but they're preferable to shrines. Things will change if we can restore at shrines, and not in a good way. For potions, I'd rather carry a (much) fewer number of more powerful potions, because that way their use is strategic.

    Alternatives:
    1) we are allowed a maximum number of potions (anything found or purchaseable). Maybe 5? I'd probably have 3 CSW, 1 mnemonic enhancer, and one that would be based on the current mission.
    2) we are allowed to carry any wands we find, but not purchase them anymore. Having a bunch of wands will help with spell points, but not really break things because we aren't able to stock up on the "best" ones.

    ----------

    I don't necessarily agree with the CC/Charm/etc. comment, solely because of the impact on spell points. They are usually expensive spells, and if you have to spam cast them for them to succeed then your SP will drain away all too fast.
    Good points

  4. #644
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    How i wished i had'nt read the e-mail of the above post. Tukcc you infuriate me so much :-)
    SP potion's are found in chests and sometimes end rewards(don't remember ever finding 1 in a breakable). Think how many you've found playing DDO!! You can buy them on AH, for lots and lots of money . Or you can buy them in DDO store for real money.

    The original rogue skill rules in D+D were awful, how often was it easier to smash down the door or open the chest with a 20ft pole. As DM it used to annoy me no end the clever ways players used to avoid traps.
    While i'm on this, DDO rogue's(or anyone else) cannot use rope to descend walls, hence feather fall items are so common and a must have in some quests.
    An old and not very good list of trap dc's. The point is Not all traps are the same ESP regarding damage and wether you can actually just avoid them(DDO style lots of hp/jump/magic items/buffs and last but 1st choice a rogue/monk splash for evasion). Spot is 'deathly' important on elite, 'don't spot the trap' result DEAD. My arti started with a 6 wis but using +wis and +spot magic items only, has had no problems spotting traps.That is a lev 11 character doing level 9+10 quests on elite Problems doing level 11 quests on elite.
    http://ddowiki.com/page/DDO_informat...raps_and_locks

    As with rogue skills, the same principles also apply to spell and melee classes.
    e.g.
    rogue tools vs weapons
    those rusty tools work at 1st then you find that more +'s are needed as traps become more complex. Luckily for rogue's thats where it end's 'all traps are the same'
    those rusty weapons work at 1st then you find more +'s are needed as monsters become tougher. Things also get more complicated for the fighter e.g. As in D+D some monsters were immune to less than +1 weapons plus others like werewolves with silver. But DDO has a lot more immunities and the dreaded DR.

    rogue tools vs spell caster items
    those rusty tools work at 1st then you find that more +'s are needed as traps become more complex. Luckily for rogue's thats where it end's 'all traps are the same'
    that patchwork robe and half broken scepter work at 1st then you find that more +'s are needed as monster's resist your spells. As in D+D some monsters have spell resistance or immunity to certain spells.

    Spell casters can kill one or more monsters with a single spell, fighters 'kinda' don't with a single hit well not with the same dramatic effect that is :-). When a spellcaster fails in his attempt to kill/charm/subdue he's in big trouble, the fighter has armour, a sword to try and kill/stop the monster from eating the wizard :-). The fighters sword never 'runs out' unlike spellpoints.
    Fighter classes have enhancements to damage, special attacks etc just likes wizards can specialise in fire spells. Thats why that half orc barbarian runs down the corridor felling kobolds with 1 swipe of an axe. Thats why cleric's who have low wisdom scores(hence attack spells will fail often) just for healing but with high str score have a much tougher time.

    Causing enough damage/spell to kill/aggro/subdue a monster before it kills you. Magic item limited is fair enough, BUT they are in no way keeping up with the level of monsters. Cogs has a +5 magic hat to 'admin' the game, everyone needs something class equivalent that needs to constanly keep up with level. That +30 fire power item isn't so effective when used on monsters that now have +300 more hit points. Playing quests in guild gives +1 loot boost so that should'nt be a problem for you all.

    You mentioned potion's it's completely D+D to use what you find in a quest indeed the DM probably put some in there to help/makefun for the character's. Now who could resist drinking the potion of wonder they just found. What you don't have in DDO is the old DM's favourite 'item saving throw's'. That potion, magic sword,'simply to powerful for normal use item' that the players needed or just for story was easily removed from play.
    Balance needs to be re-adjusted. The easy/short quests are fast running out.

    Shrine use is simply a question of 'does it make sense for the quest' in classic D+D style
    e.g Irestone inlet is a perfect example for shrine use in classic D+D, its a big open area regular patrols would take maybe more than 1 pnp gaming session to complete. In fact it took well over the usual 2 hrs to complete .Using that principle the hills quests orc outpost and my fav rescuing the farmer dogs though not needed serve as an example of : Doing the wilderness/getting past the patrols bit resting then on to victory.
    A perfect example of a quest not allow shrines would be rescuing venn durks ringleader etc.
    Also actually getting to a quest can be an adventure all by itself, why not sometimes allow rest before entering the quest itself. In fact as you level that will sometimes become a must.
    Tangleroot and how that can be made 'classic d+d' shrine friendly.
    For a start its called the Outer and Inner fortress!!. Without spoiling you kill a few orc's report back then go kill some more untill eventually the inner fortress is clear-ish. Then onward you go, its perfectly classic d+d style to attack some orc's even better if you find a camp/squad and manage to kill a captain(red-named or mini boss) then 'make camp'(inner fortress shrine was a nice place back there). There can however a problem with quests that 'send out more patrols'(respawn).
    In classic D+D style nearly all shrine's make no sense at all, esp when 50 feet away from a 1 inch thick wooden door that your summoned hellhound is firing fireballs at, behind which are 1 or more often many crazed monsters hell bent on ending your adventuring career, more worringly eating you for dinner!!!!!
    Toons can relax 'here mates there's a shrine'.
    Characters are happy to run for their lives back to the last 'safe' place they found.

    You also have the option to mimic/pretend the shrine sp 'top up' was a potion. Also when you are having difficulty in a quest a top up from 'half empty' as oppessed to 'out of gas' will be needed sometimes.

    I'm english so this link's title was just too amusing to resist
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=320329&page=5
    Last edited by SlowDM; 11-11-2012 at 10:10 AM.
    Just awestruck, wether it be a Dragon flying overhead Stormreach, that glowing character who just zoomed in'n'out of the Pub, or that i can drink a Beholder under the table and best of all rescuing Damsels in distress.

  5. #645
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    Default Delving in Spellcasting....

    This thread is excellent. (IMO)
    It discusses thoughts and concerns in the development of Spellcasters that might be very interesting.
    It's a long read, but I think worth it.
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=397223

    Just as our Rogue must weigh his Skills, Feats and Enhancements, so do Arcanes.
    It is with info like this, we can figure out if Arcanes will require an "Adjustment" item, or just a better understanding.

    NOTE: This thread is really not for our playstyle (as Kierik just pointed out to me). My interest is the underlying mechanics of how spellcasting works.
    Numbers, Numbers, Numbers.
    Last edited by intruder1; 11-12-2012 at 05:33 PM.

  6. #646
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    Default Turbine....just in case you're listening.......

    It would be great for "Classic" players to be able to pack our backpacks with food items purchased from Taverns for consumption inside a Quest.
    Can you say "Dungeon Rations"?

    There are Rations in the DDO store, but not everybody wants to (or can) use TP's.

  7. #647
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    Default Forget finding traps, Make and Set your own

    Here are some videos of rogue trapmaking something D+D 'mentioned' a rogue could do. Just how many rogue's make use of this in DDO is probably about the same as back then e.g. very little
    You need to find the trap parts and the more powerful the trap the more the need. You can also make grenades also +1 to +5 rogue tools. Its very easy indeed. I used noisemaker and small force trap for these video's

    1st video Where in the Habour to buy book to read, and other rogue-y things. Also where to go to make traps.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HExu-OCzJgk&feature=plcp

    Successfully setting a trap . A 2 an half min video of claw of vulkoor on elite but ashamedly i'm lev 12
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdcCIaY3qzo&feature=plcp

    2 short video's of setting traps in tangleroot, again for a demo only
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEyOIzs2wiQ&feature=plcp
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnqQoWlvh6Q&feature=plcp

    A 4 min video of my trying miserably to set traps . This Video is NOT really worth watching but i know Cogs likes them.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WnBKEwQnmg&feature=plcp
    Just awestruck, wether it be a Dragon flying overhead Stormreach, that glowing character who just zoomed in'n'out of the Pub, or that i can drink a Beholder under the table and best of all rescuing Damsels in distress.

  8. #648
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    After considering the impact of Critical Hits on our playstyle, I question if it really enhances or detracts from our enjoyment.
    Our characters will never have the Hit Points to mitigate CH.

    We already allow Light Fortification without Magic Status. I will suggest we try Moderate and see how this works for us.

    I have gathered a Moderate Fort Shard for each of the party and will need either a Belt or Ring from each of you.

    If you arrive in game tonight try to meet with me and we'll get you set up.

  9. #649
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    Default Trap Link + Kudos

    FYI: http://tinyurl.com/trapmaking-guide

    Looks like Cogs is going to Trap Making School!

    Thanks Azz!

  10. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fricko View Post
    FYI: http://tinyurl.com/trapmaking-guide

    Looks like Cogs is going to Trap Making School!

    Thanks Azz!

  11. #651
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    Default Game Night

    The Guild began the "Shan" chain. Part 1 (Level 3) was interesting, though tougher than I suspected by it's level. In the end, Tukcc (Ftr/Clr), died due to a 1-2 punch of Ice Storm followed by 2 Lightining Bolts. Ouch!

    We were accompanied by a Ranger, new to Stormreach, and his presence was very useful.
    If (when) he reaches Party Level, and adopts our guidelines, his inclusion to the Guild will be voted on by the membership.

    Part 2 didn't go too well at all. We lost Cogoiler (Rog) before the final battle and being unable to return to the entrance (as per Guild guideline), pressed on and was over-run by Shaagh and his bodyguards.

    The Guild adopted "Moderate Fortification" as our standard and Administrative Belts were obtained for each member.
    Critical Hits are fine and good, but because of our playstyle and the fact that monsters get way too may "Natural" 20's, we agreed that we would try to lessen the threat of it.

    The "First Aid Kit" concept has been accepted by the Guild, but there remains the question of just how many Cure Light Wounds Potions are enough and still be able to retain a logistical element. Most are leaning to 50.

    Finally, this Guild has discussed and accepted many guidelines, and we operate on an HONOR system as to their implementation. We agreed no bags or quivers, no Auction House items unless administratively allowed, no Pawn shop items, and the only things purchased are Cure Light Wounds Potions, Magic Wands and normal componants, supplies and ammunition.

    We have created an interesting "Magic Item" scoring system that tries to recreate the likelyhood of possessing a Magic Item in line with Classic D&D theory.

    It is up to each Guild Member to insure they are following the guildlines agreed upon.
    Most of these guidelines are designed to emulate a logistical sense. It give us more roleplaying things to consider.
    Last edited by intruder1; 11-15-2012 at 09:35 AM.

  12. #652
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    the fact that monsters get way too may "Natural" 20's,

    Don't monsters have the same crit ranges as we do? So couldn't a monster have a 19-20 crit or 17-20 crit depending on the monster and weapons used?

    I don't know the actual answer, but I guess I never expected them to only crit on a natural 20 if players can crit on a 15-20 for certain weapons.

  13. #653
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Don't monsters have the same crit ranges as we do? So couldn't a monster have a 19-20 crit or 17-20 crit depending on the monster and weapons used?

    I don't know the actual answer, but I guess I never expected them to only crit on a natural 20 if players can crit on a 15-20 for certain weapons.
    Yes, you are correct. I should have said they were getting a lot of "streaks" of hits.

  14. #654
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    Default

    Another interesting note I thought.....

    Quote Originally Posted by someoneelse View Post
    Splashed builds, while attractive for being very generalized, have two distinct drawbacks. First, a new player does not get the full feel for any class because they never reach the capstone. They also have to spread out their skill points across various skills, and leave them a tad thinly stretched. Second, if you screw up the build, it is slightly harder to repair.

    Moreover, people who put out these builds often do not highlight their shortcomings...and there are shortcomings. No matter which direction you go for a first life, you are going to have limitations. So when you put up a splashed build, one of the things you should highlight is where the shortcomings are, and how to offset them.

    Plus there is a distinct difference in what environment you run your toon: solo or PUGs. Or you can add a static group in there if you like.

    Solo runs are fairly straightforward. You play your toon the way you play your toon, and if you wipe in a quest you either do a different set of quests where your toon will be more successful, change tactics, or hope you get lucky on one or more die rolls. There are really no expectations on how you use your toon other than your own.

    Static groups are probably much easier because everyone knows the strenghts and weaknesses of everyone else. So, after a while, you almost end up working as a cohesive unit.

    I do a lot of PUGs. In fact, for the last year, most of my play time has been spent in a PUG. The demands on a class - any class - depends on the makeup of the PUG, and that has a wide field of variation. Yeah, you'll get the occasional "every man for themselves" group. However, many of them are going to demand specific skills from specific classes, on a wide range of quests. If you're billed as a wizzy, I can almost guarantee you that you'd better do decent charms / holds / disco balls and instakills. I mean, I personally don't have a problem with an evocation or conjuration spec-ed wizzy if they can pull it off well. But I'm generally in the minority.

    Just to reiterate, whether you go splashed or pure on a first-life toon, you're going to have limitations. No one, it seems, has a problem pointing out the limitations on a pure class build. But there are a lot of people touting splashed builds as if they are the end-all-be-all of the game. And a new player picking that up and going that direction, I believe, will learn a difficult lesson that they are not, especially in a PUG. I'm not saying that you, specifically, are touting a wizzy / rogue splash as an end-all-be-all build, but simply that many people do.
    Last edited by intruder1; 11-17-2012 at 05:15 AM.

  15. #655
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    Default Adventuring group looking for a Strong Arm

    THAC0 Fellowship is seeking a Strong Sword Arm (or Mace!) to aid in adventuring.
    Will pay 200 Plat to the right person per Adventure, plus a share in any Treasure found.
    Selection is limited. Please see first post of this thread for employment details.

    Guild membership MAY be offered to a character who shows dedication and appropriate interest.

    Contact Tukcc (Intruder1) for interview.
    Last edited by intruder1; 11-24-2012 at 08:23 AM.

  16. #656
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    Default How can you keep a Caster from being killed?

    Quote Originally Posted by someone else View Post
    On Displacement - This isn't meant to be an Always running spell, it's the "oh, we are now in an encounter where I could be attacked spell".
    Quote Originally Posted by someone else View Post
    A Wizard's defense comes from one of three things
    1. Not being where damage is occurring/out of reach - position and proximity and displacement and mobility are the keys
    2. Prevention of being attacked - Crowd Control, be it holding an enemy in place or turning the enemy on itself
    3. Elimination of threat - Be it "Boom Stick" or instant removal

    That is basically the purpose of a pure wizard in my mind. Either blow it up and hope it doesn't reach you, or avoid the target. Wizards in the D&D universe have always sort of been this way, they have a good chunk of "Oh-Sh*t" spell's when things get very hairy and up close/personal. But the consensus is to stay further away from a fight and do what you can to control it at a distance.
    Some good thoughts? How do you guys view this subject?
    Last edited by intruder1; 11-21-2012 at 04:37 AM.

  17. #657
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    Default How can we keep our casters from being killed

    Quote Originally Posted by kerikofgreyhawk
    1. I agree with how to use Displacement.
    2. Not being where damange is occurring: this is where I have consistently failed. My goal is/has been/will continue to be to evolve into a sniper, but I don't have that mindset yet.
    3. CC at the lower levels just doesn't work in a spell point limited game.


    It works for me to hold off on high hp opponents until they're down 50%. In the meantime, I can use a cheap debuff that doesn't pull aggro. Perhaps I need a better summons too. I'm still more concerned about enemies that are fast and trip, like worgs.
    Agreed......Keep it up. More suggestions?

  18. #658
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Originally Posted by kerikofgreyhawk

    3. CC at the lower levels just doesn't work in a spell point limited game.

    I think you have arrived at an incorrect conclusion. Experienced players have proven that CC at lower levels actually works quite well if you use the right spell for the right situation. Arcane L1 and L2 CC spells that are extremely effective even on 1st life characters are: Sonic blast, web, and command undead.


    In my experience Sonic blast is probably the most effective CC spell an arcane can use at low levels. A level 1 spell, with extremely long range, a medium area of effect, and a bit of damage for a mere 4 sps. You can literally stun a kobold caster and several of his closest friends from across the length of the dungeon allowing for a quick follow up with a Niac's or two until it is a pile of icicles.


    Three quick sonic blasts in a row from a sorcerer can stun an entire party of kobolds in 2 seconds allowing your melee to close ranks and dispatch them, or buying your ranged and casters more time to launch missiles and rays at the shamans and throwers. Sonic blast works wonderfully on kobolds, wolves, worgs, goblins, hobgoblins, and even spiders. It will also damage oozes and undead, it just won't stun them so in your shrineless campaign it wouldn't be as cost effective against them.


    I think the second best CC spell at low level is web. But a sorcerer can get three sonic blasts off for the cost of one web, so in campaigns with shrine restrictions web is better saved for bigger targets that have more hit points and may take longer to beat down - like ogres. The main drawbacks for web is it can be difficult to target at first and firey blasts (from friend or foe) will destroy it.


    Command undead is probably the most effect spell against undead at low level. Skeletons (including archers and arcanes) and zombies have such low (or no) will that it is essentially an automatic charm. Command undead turns arcane skeletons from menace into ally for just 15 sps. This spell alone turns chains like Catacombs & Delera's into a cakewalk.


    Even with the strict rules you have adopted for your group, these three spells are sure fire game changers for low level CC. And on first life, un-twinked characters too.


    I'm not posting this reply to simply contradict Keirik, but to explain how CC can and is used effectively at low levels. I encourage your casters not to get frustrated and give up on it. With your group's makeup at the moment, effective CC will make a world of difference. I don't know how you have broken out your stats, but even with above average scores - say 16 or higher - in the stats affecting caster DCs (INT for Wiz, CHA for sorc) you shouldn't be having difficulty landing these spells in the content you are running.
    Last edited by Postumus; 11-22-2012 at 06:21 AM.

  19. #659
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Msg from Kierik

    1. Sonic Blast does work well, but does not last long and can quickly pull aggro from a group of monsters. I've died from Sonic Blast more than once. Another issue to consider other than spell points is that this group has no tank (no frontliners at all actually), no intimidation skill user, and only the spell casters do "immediate high" damage.
    2. Web is a bad spell in a spell-point limited game with 2 casters that use fire spells quite a bit...and its really hard to aim...and its AoE is too small for anything other than a doorway, which we can block with summons anyway.
    3. Command Undead - haven't really tried this one. Not enough spell slots.



    Last night was a great time. Welcome again to Cal!

    Tukcc, my comment about "backing up" was not a complaint, just a note that if I'm backing up and the fight breaks out up front before you scamper back then I can't support you. Cogs got to 0 HP before I was able to run forward and turn the corner to join the fight, and I felt that his near-death was "on me".

    On a related note, I think I improved a bit last night with my "sniper" mindset. Learned another lesson - wand of lightning is more deadly to me than my enemies. I should never have used it in the final fight. I pulled aggro from every caster right away. I thought I had already learned my lesson about AoE spells (i.e. sonic blast), but apparently not. I'll be purchasing a new wand that is more appropriate for a sniper. Something that does high damage against a single foe, rather than low-medium damage against a bunch.
    aa

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    Default Game night

    Last night's adventuring ended with mixed results. Total time was about 2.5 hours.

    We were able to complete the second "Shan" quest, but at the cost of 3 deaths.
    The final battle went more in our favor in large part because of 2 new additions to the Guild.

    In the end battle, 3 died while Cogs and myself were incapacitated. Ktorr (the Ranger) was able to avoid wrath while Grondley's conjured Skeleton continued the battle to eventual Victory over Shaagh.
    Tukcc recovered from his incapicitation and was able to revive Cogs before he slipped away.

    The three took up the bodies of the other 3 party members and found their way out of the Steamtunnels.

    It was a very good adventure! Many thanks to the THAC0 Fellowship.

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