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  1. #1761
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    What I was doing was poking fun at was the long dialogue and explanation you made regarding how and why OTHER players should gimp their characters so that the game is more fun and balanced for YOU.

    Yet the first time intruder brings up something that affects your character, there is no middle ground, it will be a challenge, whatever.

    Just thought it was both ironic and funny.
    "First time* Tukcc brought up something about my build. Seriously? See my previous post about the changes *I* made for the sake of the group. And then re-read your comments to see just how wrong you are - and deliberately insulting. Again, you really don't know just how much you don't know what you're talking about.
    Last edited by Magiker; 12-10-2013 at 03:37 PM.

  2. #1762
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    PC = "player character" in RPG games.
    PC=Personal Computer in computer games too.

    Oh, and voluntary changes are commendable. Forcing others to play your way for your enjoyment are what I am against.

  3. #1763
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    and deliberately insulting.
    Oh I razz people about stuff all the time. Most of the time they razz me back. Sometimes people get their feelings hurt, for that I apologize.

  4. #1764
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Oh I razz people about stuff all the time. Most of the time they razz me back. Sometimes people get their feelings hurt, for that I apologize.

    You'd have more empathy for the people you razz if you actually had feelings yourself you soulless warforged robot!

  5. #1765
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    I feel this will be a challenge, because its very much dependent on the monster. In our last mission, my enchantments were 100% against the ice flensers but mostly useless against the gargoyles and flesh renderers. Also useless in any undead heavy mission.
    Command undead. Halt undead. Control undead. Three great spells that are extremely effective against undead.

    Web + firewall is even better. And that works on ice flensers and flesh renderers too.

  6. #1766
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Thinking more about 'classic casters,' from the bygone era of 1st edition AD&D.

    I think echoes of power is completely OP and not at all classic D&D. Neither are the SLAs. A caster running around with an infinite number of casts of magic missile, web, hypnotism, niac's, burning hands, or what have you definitely does not have a classic feel.

  7. #1767
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    Appologies to Waldo and Violetta on my absence last night.
    Real life gets in the way some times.

  8. #1768
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Command undead. Halt undead. Control undead. Three great spells that are extremely effective against undead.

    Web + firewall is even better. And that works on ice flensers and flesh renderers too.
    True. Which is where Grondley the Pale Master has great effect. Not such great options for a bard though. I had assumed that a firewall would burn a web, but is that not so?

  9. #1769
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Thinking more about 'classic casters,' from the bygone era of 1st edition AD&D.

    I think echoes of power is completely OP and not at all classic D&D. Neither are the SLAs. A caster running around with an infinite number of casts of magic missile, web, hypnotism, niac's, burning hands, or what have you definitely does not have a classic feel.
    Sure. But on the other hand, in Classic D&D the party was supposed to have no more than 4 encounters between every rest.

    I find that Echoes does two commendable things: 1) encourages me to use my higher level spells early in the adventure instead of "saving up" for the boss fight, 2) makes lowest level spells the largest percentage of spells cast. Just my opinion that these are good things. Definitely not "classic" though.

    Actually, I find that "Sustaining Song" is by far OP. And I've been waiting for Tukcc to have "a talk" with me about it for the past 2 weeks...
    Last edited by Magiker; 12-11-2013 at 09:04 AM.

  10. #1770
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Actually, I find that "Sustaining Song" is by far OP. And I've been waiting for Tukcc to have "a talk" with me about it for the past 2 weeks...
    (Working on Arcane DC's right now. Don't worry, have not overlooked. )

    In DDO, "Classic" is a diliberate choice you have to make.
    Unless you understand what it means, you are on the outside, looking in.
    (Personal oppinion)

  11. #1771
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post

    Actually, I find that "Sustaining Song" is by far OP. And I've been waiting for Tukcc to have "a talk" with me about it for the past 2 weeks...
    Sustaining song has been broken and not WAI. According to the release notes, this was fixed in the last patch.

  12. #1772
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    You'd have more empathy for the people you razz if you actually had feelings yourself you soulless warforged robot!
    Okay seriously, many of my comments were unnecessary and uncalled for.

    Majiker I do sincerely apologize, there was no reason for me to get snarky or insulting. Chalk it up to another foot-in-mouth incident on my part. Please pass the crow (and some ketchup).

  13. #1773
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Okay seriously, many of my comments were unnecessary and uncalled for.

    Majiker I do sincerely apologize, there was no reason for me to get snarky or insulting. Chalk it up to another foot-in-mouth incident on my part. Please pass the crow (and some ketchup).
    Fedora.....I am impressed (once again) by your integrity and honesty. Excellent.

    (glances to the other side of the fence.....)

    Your turn......

  14. #1774
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    Spell Casting is a delicate and complicated subject to control in DDO.
    I will not consider Difficulties other than Normal and here are thoughts so far....

    A Spells effectiveness is dependant on a Targets Saving throw, and to a lesser extent, the Spells minimal resulting effect.

    Start off with the saving throw being the result of a d20 beating a 10. (50%)
    Modify the "10" with bonuses from the Caster for things including Primary Attribute Bonus, Spell Level Bonus, Spell Focus Bonus, Enhancement Bonus(es) and any Magic Item Bonus(es).
    Modify the d20 roll for the Target with the appropriate Saving throw bonus.(Fort, Reflex or Will)

    Simply put, if the Casters Bonus is very close to the Targets Bonus......the result stays about 50%.
    Each Bonus increment represents a 5% push in either direction.

    As you can easily see, it can be very easy to bias the dice roll in favor of the Caster.
    Looking at a "typical" Caster, I see ...
    +7 for 24 Int or Cha (Base 18 + Level Increases + Feats and Enhancements that increase Primary)
    +2 for Normal and Greater Spell Focus

    I did not include Magic Items, which are plentiful.

    No suggestions are being made yet as we can not know how varied a Monsters Saving Throws can be.

  15. #1775
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    Oh, and just to be clear.
    My intent in suggesting "nerfs" to anything related to a characters performance is purely to restrict the "easy button" and support the Classic tennant that "nothing is for certain".

    Things like Disarming, and Spell Casting can easily be accomplished with "anything but a 1" if we play the DDO way and "let it".
    I would like to merely increase that chance of failure from 5% to 20-30% and give that character reason for doubt.

    Drama like that makes a game interesting. (imo only)
    And is the premise for this group.

  16. #1776
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Oh, and just to be clear.
    My intent in suggesting "nerfs" to anything related to a characters performance is purely to restrict the "easy button" and support the Classic tennant that "nothing is for certain".

    Things like Disarming, and Spell Casting can easily be accomplished with "anything but a 1" if we play the DDO way and "let it".
    I would like to merely increase that chance of failure from 5% to 20-30% and give that character reason for doubt.

    Drama like that makes a game interesting. (imo only)
    And is the premise for this group.
    Okay well then (this is not snarky, just trying to understand) how about a melee's chance to hit an opponent in combat? Should that also be about 50%? As Majiker has pointed out, a caster has to also manage his blue bar, whereas a melee does not have any "weapon points" he needs to conserve, he can swing until the cows come home.

  17. #1777
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    (glances to the other side of the fence.....)

    Your turn......
    I disagree. The crow is mine, all mine. I put him on the defensive right from the start. If I had shut up or worded it differently the whole exchange would have been avoided. I know when to admit I am wrong (since it happens often enough).

  18. #1778
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post

    Simply put, if the Casters Bonus is very close to the Targets Bonus......the result stays about 50%.
    Each Bonus increment represents a 5% push in either direction.

    As you can easily see, it can be very easy to bias the dice roll in favor of the Caster.
    Looking at a "typical" Caster, I see ...
    +7 for 24 Int or Cha (Base 18 + Level Increases + Feats and Enhancements that increase Primary)
    +2 for Normal and Greater Spell Focus

    I did not include Magic Items, which are plentiful.

    You also forgot about spell level and the heighten feat which drastically affect the caster DC.

    (DC = 10 + Spell Level + Casting Stat Modifier + Items + Feats)

    SPELL LEVEL


    The wizard in your example above, let's call him Merlyn, would have drastically different DCs depending on the level of the spell he chooses to cast regardless of his own level or his enemy's level.


    If Merlyn casts Hypnotism on the enemy (let's call him Nilbog), his DC for that spell is 10 + 1 + 7 + 0 + 2 = 20. If Nilbog has a +9 bonus to saves, he has to roll 11 or better to save against Merlyn's spell, or about a 50% chance to save against the spell.


    If Merlyn casts Dominate Person on Nilbog, his DC for that spell is 10 + 5 + 7 + 0 + 2 = 24. If Nilbog has a +9 bonus to saves, he has to roll 15 or better to save against Merlyn's spell, or about a 30% chance to save against the spell.

    Same wizard, same enemy, but a 20% better chance to land the spell because it is a higher level spell.


    HEIGHTEN

    If Merlyn is smart, he takes the Heighten feat because it will augment the power of his SLAs for no additional cost. Assuming 5th level spells are the highest level spell Merlyn can cast, Heighten will boost Merlyn's Hypnotism SLA DC from 20 to 24 (10+5+7+0+2= 24) FOR NO ADDITIONAL SP COST.


    For ONE spell point, Merlyn now has a 70% chance to land Hypnotism on Nilbog. And with echoes of power he can cast that spell every few seconds forever. In fact, Merlyn can cycle between Hypnotism, Otto's Resistable Dance, and Hold Person, all with DCs of 24, indefinitely since each spell cost 6 SP or less to cast.


    And if Merlyn is really smart (with 24 INT he should be), he will cast his 24 DC Hypnotism on Nilbog before he casts his other SLAs, so even if Hypnotism doesn't land, Nilbog gets slapped with a -3 to his will saves for the next 8 seconds, essentially boosting Merlyn's DCs to 27 for Otto's and Hold Person. Now poor Nilbog needs to roll 18 to make his save against those spells. Down to a 15% chance.


    In short, just because Nilbog's saving throw modifier is the same as Merlyn's INT + GSF modifiers, it doesn't mean he will have anywhere near a 50-50 chance to save against Merlyn's spells unless Merlyn just doesn't understand how magic works. Nilbog will never approach a 50% success rate. It will be much more like a 15% chance to save.


    Even in THACO's system, casters are insanely overpowered compared to the other classes, which is the main reason I didn't bother playing one in Storm 1. They trivialize content and are just too easy to play.
    Last edited by Postumus; 12-11-2013 at 07:22 PM.

  19. #1779
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    how about a melee's chance to hit an opponent in combat? Should that also be about 50%? As Majiker has pointed out, a caster has to also manage his blue bar, whereas a melee does not have any "weapon points" he needs to conserve, he can swing until the cows come home.

    Which is actually a very good point. I would argue there is a vast difference between what a caster can do with a 1 point hypnotism or 3 point web and what most melees can ever do. To say nothing of firewalls and DoTs.

    THACOs gear restrictions actually favor casters over melee since normal content is a complete joke for most naked casters.
    Last edited by Postumus; 12-12-2013 at 02:32 AM.

  20. #1780
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Which is actually a very good point. I would argue the difference between what a caster can do with a 1 point hypnotism or 3 point web what most melees can ever do. To say nothing of firewalls and DoTs.

    THACOs gear restrictions actually favor casters over melee since normal content is a complete joke for most naked casters.
    Testify, Brother Postumus !!!!

    Intruder, trying to balance any arcane is going to make you die before your time. I'll give you many kudos and pie if you manage this monumental task.

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