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  1. #1641
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Are these things NEEDED to do Normal Adventures, or is it just because these are what we actually play this game for?
    As a caster on Normal, I don't think much is required. Fort items are still mandatory. Take away my sonic quarterstaff, and my DPS goes down (but so does my aggro). I've got some bonus spell points, and few minor effects here and there like (+5 Listen) I could easily dump. I think saves are fairly well balanced on Normal without all the gear bonuses so that spells land fairly well. And Echoes makes things better.

    I'd feel differently if I played an archer or melee type, in which case I'd want the best all-around weapon I could get and a decent backup (but not a walking armory). I suppose an archer with a few different ammo types could get by.

    If you were given the choice of any one magic item up to your magic level in power, what would it be? Assuming you had only that and a fort item, would it be enough?

  2. #1642
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    The reason I ask these things is because, after 10 levels of restricted Treasure availabilities, our characters still find themselves in possession of quite a bit.
    Weapons with 2, sometimes 3 damage multiplying effects.
    Armor with 2 or more effects.
    4-6 Items (per person!) with Ability enhancing effects.

    Are these things NEEDED to do Normal Adventures, or is it just because these are what we actually play this game for?
    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann
    The lvl10 group is now getting into quest territory where things ramp up. If you haven't already, I highly suggest that group does Wiz King on normal to see the step up I am talking about.
    Varhann is both right and wrong IMO. Chamber of Raiyum (Wizard King) is a L12 quest so sending a group of L10 characters through that quest with THACO's low magic rules wouldn't really give you a good idea of how well your system scales with the adventures.


    Normal level is considered quite easy by veteran players regardless of gear. Skilled players will have no problems running Chaimber of Raiyum (wizard king) at level on normal even with THACO's ultra-low magic rules. I believe even Storm 1.0, with its more restrictive gear rules, could have run Chamber of Raiyum on normal or hard at level.


    Right now THACO appears to be running the Threnal chain (which is a L8 - L10 chain) on normal. If THACO can complete the Threnal quests on normal, then I think you can probably complete the Sands quests on normal as well. You may have to run them 1-2 levels below your level as you seem to be doing now with Threnal (eg - your group is level 13 - 14 when you run Wiz King), but based on how LeadHero, Fricko, and Zefjoe played in Storm 1, I think you should have a good chance to complete Wiz King on normal at level 13.


    Honestly I think Wiz King would be easier for THACO than Chains of Flame (which is extremely long) or Offering of Blood (which has many re-spawns so sneaking everywhere is actually a detriment).

  3. #1643
    Community Member Varhann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post

    Honestly I think Wiz King would be easier for THACO than Chains of Flame (which is extremely long) or Offering of Blood (which has many re-spawns so sneaking everywhere is actually a detriment).
    Thanks Postumus. I agree that Chains and Offering would possibly hold more of a challenge, but Raiyum cannot be underestimated. Anything in The Sands is going to make an underequipped group hurt badly. I honestly don't think any of the three is completable under the current ruleset.

    I'd like to be proven wrong, of course. I'm just trying to illustrate the point that taking stuff away at mid level is bad mojo for all. It won't make anything more challenging, just aggravating.

    But the Boss is wont to fiddle with stuff and fiddle he does.

  4. #1644
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    I honestly don't think any of the three is completable under the current ruleset.

    I'd like to be proven wrong, of course. I'm just trying to illustrate the point that taking stuff away at mid level is bad mojo for all. It won't make anything more challenging, just aggravating.

    But the Boss is wont to fiddle with stuff and fiddle he does.
    I'm not recomending anything. I am just interested in how you all feel about it.
    Tukcc and Manatarmss have shed 90% of their Magic in order to compare their contributions to adventures at Normal.
    I'd like to hear more about what everyone believes is neccessary vs what they actually want.

  5. #1645
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Tukcc and Manatarmss have shed 90% of their Magic in order to compare their contributions to adventures at Normal.
    Ah... there's the rub, though. You've said [in game] you noticed a slight lessening of combat prowess but nothing drastic. Being part of a six man team, you wouldn't necessarily see a huge impact to the GROUPS ability to combat the enemy.

    However, I don't doubt that even if we shed the remainder of our magic gear and went in with just normal weapons and level 1 wands, along with EoP, we would be able to complete quest's on normal. For the next couple of levels at least. As Postumus has said, normal difficulty is EASY. It's been made to be SOLO-able, up to a point [with max stats, gear and ship buffs granted].

    I'm game for it, but I think to balance the "roleplay" aspect, 1 or 2 items of unlimited magic value should be allowed, as treasured "heirlooms" or whatever to add to the characters - umm... character.
    Last edited by zefjoe; 10-20-2013 at 02:37 PM.

  6. #1646
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    Thanks Postumus. I agree that Chains and Offering would possibly hold more of a challenge, but Raiyum cannot be underestimated. Anything in The Sands is going to make an underequipped group hurt badly. I honestly don't think any of the three is completable under the current ruleset.

    I'd like to be proven wrong, of course. I'm just trying to illustrate the point that taking stuff away at mid level is bad mojo for all. It won't make anything more challenging, just aggravating.

    Since THACO doesn't worry about optionals, odds are it won't have to go through all three towers to complete the quest which makes it easier. And there is a 1 in 3 chance the quest could be quite short.


    I think any group with a sorcerer, a pale master, and a cleric should be able to complete Wiz King at L13-14 on normal. Even without shrines. Until THACO starts eliminating certain spells, feats, and enhancements as OP, and makes everyone run naked with sticks, I think Wiz King is quite doable for it. Perhaps not on the first try, and certainly not without some deaths, but I think it is certainly possible with the current rule set.


    The more I think about it, the more I believe Offering of Blood might be the quest THACO will find the most challenging unless it can adapt to a completely different play style. The "sneak at all times" tactics won't be effective there. And just getting to the quest without using a rest shrine will tough for them. But again we're talking about normal so maybe they will be able to get away with it.


    I know the 'sneak everywhere' tactic will certainly fail in Prey on the Hunter, but that's probably two years away for this group.

  7. #1647
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    As Postumus has said, normal difficulty is EASY. It's been made to be SOLO-able, up to a point [with max stats, gear and ship buffs granted].

    Well it still scales based on party size. But yeah, you should get to the point where normal, even without shrines, is too easy for your group regardless of how much gear you dump.

  8. #1648
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    Default Gonna be sick.....

    Cogoiler read the above pages over my shoulder, took a hefty pull on his "XXX" stone jug o' liquid courage, and whispered in my ear... "I'm gonna be sick them nights! Y'all do be careful?"

    -Sam *face/palm*

  9. #1649
    Community Member Hazelnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    There are many different images we all envision our characters to be. Arcane Death Dealer, Invisible Stalker, Sniper.

    I would like opinions on some things......

    What Feats do you consider most valuable to your character?
    I haven't figure this one out yet. Probably TWF or the dragonmark so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    What Enhancements make the biggest difference to you?
    Each enhancement I choose is a trade-off that has a small affect on how I do things. So far, the Arcane Archer enhancement that lets me conjure returning arrows has been the most used.
    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    What do you prefer, "To Hit" Bonus, Damage Bonus, Critical Hit Bonus or some other Combat Effect from a Weapon?
    Depends on the weapon. So far, for the ranger, To Hit is the least important. I tend to think more defensively, though. I guess the frost/ice effect on weapons is what I prefer the most because I like the shattering game effect. It's just way too much fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Do you prefer Magic Weapons, Armor or Items that enhance Strength, Dexterity or maybe bolster your Spell effectiveness or ability to cast more spells?
    Defensive items, definitely. Fortification is first, spell resistance is second.
    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post

    The reason I ask these things is because, after 10 levels of restricted Treasure availabilities, our characters still find themselves in possession of quite a bit.
    Weapons with 2, sometimes 3 damage multiplying effects.
    Armor with 2 or more effects.
    4-6 Items (per person!) with Ability enhancing effects.

    Are these things NEEDED to do Normal Adventures, or is it just because these are what we actually play this game for?
    In spite of my periodic asking about pushing the limits of the THAC0 way the truth is I enjoy the look and feel far more than the "magic" in DDO. I would happily quest with mundane non-magical weapons and armor as long as it looked good and had a story to follow.
    Last edited by Hazelnut; 10-21-2013 at 12:15 PM.
    Zyinniah Hazelnut and Curissa Hazelnut on most servers.

  10. #1650
    Community Member LeadHero5's Avatar
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    Default Haywire goes weill, haywire...

    The longest quest we have done to date. If any Turbine writers are following this, know that those little sneaky dungeon quirks like hiding the trap box around the corner from the lever or putting a deep pit in a pitch black hallway are catching us out. Spent far too long searching for a 'secret' lever to open a gate only to finally find it RIGHT NEXT TO THE GATE in a little alcove between two pillars. DDO really needs a /facepalm emote. We fiiiiiinnnalllly get to the end after solving the puzzle; and have to run out. "There's flame ellies here" "Just run through the traps!! No time to stop" Ding,.....Ding...Ding. Checking my alignment (lawful neutral) I see there isn't much I can do. Cast teleport. Ding.....Ding. Party wipe with one escape but no quest completion for anyone. Oh, and no chests either...

    Next time I'm learning jump and protection from energy spells.







    Signature edit *except by Grondley Drexelhand
    Last edited by LeadHero5; 10-25-2013 at 04:17 PM.


    Originally posted by Aeryyn "I don't play this game for xp/min, I play for fun/hour. "

  11. #1651
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    Haywire Foundry: Normal Difficulty, 6 players, THAC0 rules.

    As Leadhero stated.....wow, was this an eye-opener.
    Players are so used to "oh, here's a trap, and oh, there's the box."
    That 95% sucess rate at Disarming doesn't do too well if you can't find the control mechanizm!

    It was a fight to the very end. I died twice, one of the rangers died I think 3 times and a couple others died once.
    A huge maze to wander around in and solutions weren't sitting there yelling "Here I am!".

    The puzzle was a hoot. Once the slimies were delt with, we tried EVERY combination we could think of.
    Finally, I just stood there watching the efforts of the others and luckily noticed a "click" which ended up giving us our solution.

    Note also that 4 of the 6 players had never seen this quest before, and the 2 that did were bitting their lip in laughter keeping their knowledge quiet!

    We were totally unprepared for the "race to the entrance", and everyone perished (save the one who bugged out on us!).

    What Leadhero forgot about was that one of our group, whose name I won't mention (Kierik) , actually came away with a Magical Battle Axe.
    Not to mention most everyone garnered Gems, Potions and some Coin in this Dungeon.
    ...So Treasure WAS to be had, just not the DDO Treasure most expect.

    3.5 hours and the screaming and laughing all the way made this an excellent game night.

  12. #1652
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    Something I'd like to mention is the fact that both Tukcc AND Calibhan were both adventuring with but 1 magic item apiece. This was just to see how much of a difference our normal minimal magic makes. Tukcc had magic imbued armor and normal weapons, and Cali a +2 WIS and Wizardry II helm [mainly to bring up his WIS so that tier 5 spells can be cast]. Full plate armor, sword, mace and shield were all +1 items, which at level 10 is "basic" enough.

    However, Cal is foolhardy - not crazy, so he invested in race and class enhancements to shore up any soft spots. He ended with an AC of 30, PRR of 8, DR of 5/- [non blocking]; AC 32, DR 8 [blocking]. Cleric Smite helped his melee and Divine Disciple Light enhancements his spells.

    The only noticeable difference from his normal routine was a slight reduction in damage from his light spells and a bit more endurance in melee. I'm sure if he adopted just racial enhancements that would only increase those two effects.

    My thoughts on the experiment - meh.

    Opting for no magic will make the quests a little more challenging, certainly. As Tukcc stated, we had quite a few more deaths than usual. A result of two of us with very limited characters? Or just a really hard dungeon? And if Cali had died early on - no raises. They would have had to abandon the quest before the end because there were two others that died.

    If the whole party went in like that? Well - consider Cogs relies on all damage [not just SA] from his Heavy Xbow of Lacerating. Ktorr has his bow [don't know exactly what it is] and Dueling Schlager. Take away those and you seriously reduce our ranged damage and point blank damage. Grondley and Kierik would be reduced in spell power [I'm guessing].

    Maybe for the past few levels it would have made for interesting questing, but now that we are approaching level 11 and 12 quests...

    Will Cali go back to his old loadout?
    Will he find his true love for melee and magic?
    Will he escape from the evil machinations of Tukcc?
    Tune in next week - same batsh*t crazy time, same batsh*t crazy channel.

  13. #1653
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    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    My thoughts on the experiment - meh.

    Will Cali go back to his old loadout?
    .
    Yes.
    The difference may have raised the challenge, but the "consequence" is making us too limited.
    Levels less than 6ish may be fine for no magic, but not mid-level, and I suspect not at all when we get to upper levels.

    Tukcc is getting what little gear he had back on.

  14. #1654
    Community Member zefjoe's Avatar
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    tukcc is getting what little gear he had back on.
    lol.

  15. #1655
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    Nice!

    Quote Originally Posted by JayChuck View Post
    After being part of Mortal Voyage for a few years now we finally organized and flagged 12 characters to attempt VoN 5 and 6.

    We easily completed VoN 5 on hard without a scratch in a little over two hours. Most players had only been in the quest once or twice.

    Without spoilers 12 brave Mortals proceeded to VoN 6. . . .

    About 10 minutes later we successfully took down the three pillars simultaneously, lost one character, and moved in to face Velah with the remaining 11 Mortals.

    Well, facing Velah for the first time (even on heroic hard) for 11 Mortals was a learning experience.

    We learned a lot, suffered 6 additional deaths, and was forced to retreat.

    Congratulations to the Mortals for taking on the challenge.

    The guild is very excited to try again as soon as we have replacement characters ready.

    After a FEW YEARS!! Excellent!

  16. #1656
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Nice!



    After a FEW YEARS!! Excellent!
    Which means they played the same L1-10 content over and over again for YEARS. :/

  17. #1657
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Which means they played the same L1-10 content over and over again for YEARS. :/
    True!
    Permadeath is an unforgiving mistress.
    I respect their determination, but I prefer ours.

  18. #1658
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    Default Percy is unemployed!

    After resolving "A Small Problem" last night, there was a discussion about the fact we had three Rangers and NO Cleric to assist on Monday adventures. In light of the fact that certain of our party have discovered the delights of cannonballing off of cliffs into pools of lava, it was suggested that Ranger Waldhorn retire, and Cleric Percy be hired, but at level five.

    I doubt that even Divine intervention will help much, considering the collection of nuts (Lava Diving!!!!) assembled in this particular DDO fruitcake, but it is worth a try! A reroll of Percy to VIP rejoin of DDO at level four leaves a quick one level trip to next week and joining Manatarms and Company at level five. (Hazelnut has a story to tell about lava divers! Don't miss it!)

    What say you, O' Mighty Leader?

    -Sam

  19. #1659
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fricko View Post
    After resolving "A Small Problem" last night, there was a discussion about the fact we had three Rangers and NO Cleric to assist on Monday adventures. In light of the fact that certain of our party have discovered the delights of cannonballing off of cliffs into pools of lava, it was suggested that Ranger Waldhorn retire, and Cleric Percy be hired, but at level five.

    I doubt that even Divine intervention will help much, considering the collection of nuts (Lava Diving!!!!) assembled in this particular DDO fruitcake, but it is worth a try! A reroll of Percy to VIP rejoin of DDO at level four leaves a quick one level trip to next week and joining Manatarms and Company at level five. (Hazelnut has a story to tell about lava divers! Don't miss it!)

    What say you, O' Mighty Leader?

    -Sam
    THAC0 is all about what YOU want, not neccessarily about what we think we need.
    Not having a Cleric may seem to some to be suicide, but hey, I don't know any group who is able to do this without a Divine. It would be big bragging rights to be the first who could.
    Maybe it would require "original thinking".

    I'm sure no one in the group is going to object, so neither will I.

    On another note, I am a bit disappointed with the "ease" we solved the mountain climbing in the last adventure.
    It seemed to be more fun searching "the way" rather than using our Wizards emense Intellegence to reason out the optimal path.
    Jus saying......

    Here's a question......
    Elvish Paladin-----thinking outside the box.
    Someone show me they can see the whole picture.
    Last edited by intruder1; 10-29-2013 at 09:23 PM.

  20. #1660
    Community Member Varhann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    THAC0 is all about what YOU want, not neccessarily about what we think we need.
    Not having a Cleric may seem to some to be suicide, but hey, I don't know any group who is able to do this without a Divine. It would be big bragging rights to be the first who could.
    Maybe it would require "original thinking".

    I'm sure no one in the group is going to object, so neither will I.

    On another note, I am a bit disappointed with the "ease" we solved the mountain climbing in the last adventure.
    It seemed to be more fun searching "the way" rather than using our Wizards emense Intellegence to reason out the optimal path.
    Jus saying......

    Here's a question......
    Elvish Paladin-----thinking outside the box.
    Someone show me they can see the whole picture.
    I apologize if I made it easy.

    But, as there is only one path to the Sky Spirit and the propensity for folks "falling" off cliffs, I thought I would make it possible for us to actually complete the adventure. If I killed the fun, I am sorry.

    I will keep my trap shut in the future.

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