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  1. #1161
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    Oh...sorry. 10% chance to find anything in a chest.
    (got hung up on "1" on a d10)

    The remainder of the contents of a chest after Equipables are deleted are Valor, Coin and Gems. (with rare exceptions)
    If you don't roll a 1, it means there wasn't anything of value found anyway.
    Why insist on opening a chest just to see what you missed?

  2. #1162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zefjoque View Post
    So how about over-leveling. Going into a quest ON NORMAL either at level or 1 level higher with NO to LOW gear? By LOW gear I mean number of items equipped, not the ML or Potential. I think this would do away with the growing need for Rogues to have to specialize into Trapping and nothing else, with Melee's falling behind in their combat tactics, and with casters failing in their spell pen. and spell resistance.
    You can't forsee how these will affect quests.
    Every quest is different.
    It is better to underestimate the difficulty of a Module than to overestimate.
    Overestimation gives the party too much power (items) which are difficult to remove once it's discovered.

  3. #1163
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post

    This does raise the good point of how the elite and hard groups will operate without "helper" items. Do hard groups get 20% of everything and elite groups 30%? Or will they get specific admin items? How will that work?

    I think if both our trappers died and lost all their gear and we were going to attempt a trap heavy quest, we would simply run it on hard or normal or run other quests until we are partially geared up.


    As for Storm, since we haven't implemented the chest rolling mechanic, I think fort items drop frequently enough that someone should be able to re-equip back up to 75% of what they had after just one or two quests. I'm assuming any loot found in chests subsequent to the revived player's mishap can be passed as normal.


    This begs the question: can other party members give items from their own banked stash to the characters who have recently died? What about items they have equipped? For instance, if Jedial dies in a quest, can Cadrod and the others all give Jedial some of their lesser or cast off items before the next quest? Or does Jedial get to keep his one item and buy new, non-magic gear to replace anything that was destroyed?

  4. #1164
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    What I meant about over-leveling is, say level 3 group of characters going into a level 4 quest on Normal. Mainly for the low level quests say 1-5. Items can be reduced. The Rogue doesn't need a +5 to Search and Spot item if you are not going in on Hard or Elite. But the higher level is sure to give more of a challenge if the party feels that at level Low level quests are too easy. Same for THACO possibly. If we feel that with item restriction, Normal is somewhat too easy, instead of going to Hard which we know requires better gear (for Rogues esp) going up a level, level 10 quest, might be more of a challenge?

    Boiled down - Normal at level is the way to go. If it feels too easy then go into a level higher, instead of Hard or Elite.

  5. #1165
    Community Member LeadHeros's Avatar
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    Default Penalty box...

    Permadeath. After a year to get to level 9 I'm not interested in starting over.
    Random class. I'm not interested in trying to do wizard stuff while carrying a useless random class level. I have too much invested in Grondley to essentially waste the char. He is a normal wizard build with two birthday tomes sitting in the bank. I don't want a char that was made useless for normal questing.
    Gear loss. I'm carrying an impulse scepter of spell penn; Khorthos robe, mod fort belt, +3 int ring and a vendor wand. Honestly, I don't think losing any of that will effect me that much. The ring costs me 20 spell points out of 526. My spell cost ranges from 4(magic missle) to 30(summon monster). The wand takes 4-6 shots to kill 1 hobgoblin. Jac probably does more damage then I do any more; and the lantern is pretty potent against undead. The last few quests, I've only attacked if it looked like someone was getting hurt, trying to save points for the end fight. If death becomes a huge deal, and we start playing 'safe', that's boring to me. Sneaking through a dungeon, not doing anything during an encounter for an hour is not 'fun'. Running with a bunch of funny guys, doing oddball stuff, THAT'S FUN. If you die and don't get xp and lag behind others in level, how does that help? If you can't even watch the rest of the quest, how can you improve your knowledge of the game? How can you improve your gear if 90% of potentially useful items are off limits. At least 5 really useful items will go unseen in chests before you see something that you can use.
    I am 100% committed to seeing what happens next. I always look forward to Wednesday.
    No Char left behind; original join date, Oct 2010

  6. #1166
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    Default Be cautious.....

    Running with pards is a lot of fun in all three of our current "D&D Test" groups. Please, let's be very cautious not to make our efforts so silly with complex restrictions and heavy penalties that it is no longer fun.

    -Sam

  7. #1167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post

    This begs the question: can other party members give items from their own banked stash to the characters who have recently died? What about items they have equipped? For instance, if Jedial dies in a quest, can Cadrod and the others all give Jedial some of their lesser or cast off items before the next quest? Or does Jedial get to keep his one item and buy new, non-magic gear to replace anything that was destroyed?
    I would say "donations" are fine.
    Just make sure everything is deleted from the deceased, right down to Healing Kits and Material Componants.
    Other than the "one" item, there can be no exceptions.

    If you think about it, a Magic "Limit" can be instituted by just using the Dice Roll. 10% is used because it was actually mentioned in the books as part of a theory behind overall dungeon planning.

    Just as a note......
    Breakables is a term for what was described as "carefully searching an area".
    A "chest" is DDO's device for giving players things that were found in the remains of the monsters they killed.
    "End reward" is just that, except in DDO there's WAY too much Magic to be had.

    "MOB" equals "Wandering Monster(s)"

  8. #1168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fricko View Post
    Running with pards is a lot of fun in all three of our current "D&D Test" groups. Please, let's be very cautious not to make our efforts so silly with complex restrictions and heavy penalties that it is no longer fun.

    -Sam
    No changes have been made.
    These are just discussions.

  9. #1169
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    3 Quests last night.....
    First of "The Lost Seekers" chain, and the first two of the "Catacombs".
    Party is Level 3 playing "at level" on Normal Difficulty.
    Characters only have 1-3 Magic Items each, Misc and Consumables are only what has been found in previous adventures.
    This is NOT an easy playstyle considering what you have to work with.

    There is a lot of research involved in stating that "90% of Treasure found in DDO shouldn't be there under 2nd Edition Guidelines."
    This playstyle is confirming that, every time we play.
    In order to spare players from the stress of opening up a chest from which they can not have the Magic Items, I have suggested that the chest NOT be opened at all.
    This would deny even the Mundane things, Valor, Coin, Gems and Essences, but someone said last night "What about Mastercraft Weapons?" which are considered non-magic, equivilent to Maundane Items.
    It seems there are always "what if's" when guidelines that take away things are given,

    I personnally don't believe the Mundane things in a chest are of much importance beyond first or second levels.
    Further, after reviewing the number charts in the DMG, something caught my eye that I had overlooked the first time.
    It seems the 10% rule referred to Treasure that did not have a Monster Guarding it.
    The actual guideline for "us" should be TWO rolls of a d10, a "1" would indicate a Treasure was found.

    In game, everyone gathers around the chest in question and EVERYONE rolls a d10, the FIRST 2 results that show up in party chat are the ones used.
    If either is a "1", the chest can be opened and distributed.
    In neither is a "1", the party moves on as if it wasn't there.

  10. #1170
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    Default Treasure

    I think there are three different situations:
    1. the treasure chest is guarded by a monster (i.e. represents monster's "gear").
    2. the treaure chest is guarded by a trap (i.e. represents a "hoard").
    3. the treasure chest is not guarded (random ddo loot).

    1 and 2 are fine, 3 could be ignored altogether.


    Also, I think the problem is that each chest does not hold 1 instance of treasure. Rather, ddo has programmed each chest to hold 1 instance of treasure per party member. I think this is where the problem lies. If the chest just held 1 instance of treasure, and that treasure was doled out amongst the party, I think we wouldn't need a roll at all.

    The way to implement this is for a single person to access the chest. Just a thought.

  11. #1171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    I think there are three different situations:
    1. the treasure chest is guarded by a monster (i.e. represents monster's "gear").
    2. the treaure chest is guarded by a trap (i.e. represents a "hoard").
    3. the treasure chest is not guarded (random ddo loot).

    1 and 2 are fine, 3 could be ignored altogether.

    Also, I think the problem is that each chest does not hold 1 instance of treasure. Rather, ddo has programmed each chest to hold 1 instance of treasure per party member. I think this is where the problem lies. If the chest just held 1 instance of treasure, and that treasure was doled out amongst the party, I think we wouldn't need a roll at all.

    The way to implement this is for a single person to access the chest. Just a thought.
    I like this. Question is who gets the magic item? - if there is only one player who could use it or there is only one who wants it, problem solved

    but if it could go to any player, then we roll highest of 1d10 to see who gets it -

    how is that any different then rolling to see if we could have gotten anything in the first place? (does that makes sense? hard to explain.)

    As a side note, I also like Magicker's solution to the death consequence issue, that he came up with in response to my Chimer-death question. I know it will be a moot issue as some characters will have Raise Dead or Resurrection in THACO and Storm are concerned but for general thoughts of having a death consequence for the Guild, it would seem to be the most flexible and there is an option for any type of player. To wit -


    Thinking about the things to which a death penalty can attach:
    1. toon's existence (if you die, delete and start over from level 1)
    2. XP (if you die, you must immediately release from dungeon)
    3. build (if you die, something like suggested above happens to your build i.e. Random class)
    4. items (if you die, sacrifice x magic items)
    5. playtime (if you die, then your soulstone stays where it fell until the quest is over)

    How about something like this?
    1. first death (within any given level) = #5.
    2. second death (within any given level) = player chooses between options #2, #3, #4.
    3. third death (within any given level) = #1.
    And when you gain a new level, you go back to the top of this list.

    Giving the player a choice will level out the impact amongst players that have different expectations of the game (i.e. end-gamer vs. RP vs. challenge vs. etc.)


    Idle question Magicker... are you perhaps an engineer or some type? You seem very apt with breaking down an issue into good bullet points. I also seem to remember an occasion when you solved Rakham's Obstacle course? Hmmmm...
    Last edited by Zefjoque; 05-21-2013 at 02:18 PM.

  12. #1172
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    We have some good ideas floating around.
    Problem is, a resolution can not be overly complicated.
    My suggestions have gone from "Potential", to "Minimum Level", to "Dice Roll".
    Each one simpler than the last.

    A good "house rule" system has to be easy enough to follow by each and every one involved.
    Unless you can get 100% support for a Death "Consequence" in the first place, you're gonna have a rough time of it.

  13. #1173
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Unless you can get 100% support for a Death "Consequence" in the first place, you're gonna have a rough time of it.
    Just pointing out that this is something of a one-sided viewpoint. Some people feel the opposite - i.e. unless you can get 100% support for NO death consequence...there should be one.

    ----------

    I still like the idea of letting people choose their consequence if they die. This is 1 situation with 3 choices. I think the group can handle this level of complexity. Each death results in:
    1. Immediately release and lose XP (keep all items, build is unaffected)
    OR
    2. Forfeit all items currently equipped except 1 heirloom (stay within quest, build is unaffected)
    OR
    3. Random roll for your next level (keep all items, stay within quest, can take 1/level)

    ----------

    I'd also like to switch from "roll the dice for each chest and everyone loots on 1 in 10" to "a single player loots each chest and distributes what he finds throughout the party".
    Last edited by Magiker; 05-21-2013 at 07:04 PM.

  14. #1174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zefjoque View Post
    Idle question Magicker... are you perhaps an engineer or some type? You seem very apt with breaking down an issue into good bullet points. I also seem to remember an occasion when you solved Rakham's Obstacle course? Hmmmm...
    You're making me blush. I'm a good analyst, but a lousy communicator. I should start talking in bullets.

    (and I remember that obstacle course being a team effort...)

  15. #1175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Just pointing out that this is something of a one-sided viewpoint. Some people feel the opposite - i.e. unless you can get 100% support for NO death consequence...there should be one.
    Good counter-point.
    Question: How many players do NOT prefer a Death Consequence?


    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post

    I still like the idea of letting people choose their consequence if they die. This is 1 situation with 3 choices. I think the group can handle this level of complexity. Each death results in:
    1. Immediately release and lose XP (keep all items, build is unaffected)
    OR
    2. Forfeit all items currently equipped except 1 heirloom (stay within quest, build is unaffected)
    OR
    3. Random roll for your next level (keep all items, stay within quest, can take 1/level)
    Again.....What are the preferences.


    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    I'd also like to switch from "roll the dice for each chest and everyone loots on 1 in 10" to "a single player loots each chest and distributes what he finds throughout the party".
    This is an interesting idea.
    Maybe we can try this out on Wednesday.

  16. #1176
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    Default Update 18

    Big update, guys. Make sure you login early tonight.


    Couple points of interest:


    1) "Incapacitation has changed for characters who stabilize. Once a character stabilizes, a twenty second timer begins. If a character is still incapacitated when the timer runs out, the character will get up with twenty percent of the character's maximum hit points returned."

    So let me get this straight. You nearly die. Nobody heals you. But twenty seconds later, you're auto-healed to 20% of full health. What?! Diehard feat, anyone?? Looking at you, Tukcc.


    2) "Many undead creatures, particularly in older content, now have smaller Hit Dice values that match their CR. The main effect of this will be to make the Turn Undead ability more effective against them."

    Another bump for Tukcc. Our clericish warrior is gonna shine!
    Last edited by Magiker; 05-22-2013 at 10:54 AM.

  17. #1177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Big update, guys. Make sure you login early tonight.


    Couple points of interest:


    1) "Incapacitation has changed for characters who stabilize. Once a character stabilizes, a twenty second timer begins. If a character is still incapacitated when the timer runs out, the character will get up with twenty percent of the character's maximum hit points returned."

    So let me get this straight. You nearly die. Nobody heals you. But twenty seconds later, you're auto-healed to 20% of full health. What?! Diehard feat, anyone?? Looking at you, Tukcc.
    Hmmm....have to see how this works out. Sounds fishy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    2) "Many undead creatures, particularly in older content, now have smaller Hit Dice values that match their CR. The main effect of this will be to make the Turn Undead ability more effective against them."

    Another bump for Tukcc. Our clericish warrior is gonna shine!
    Yeah, actually it might make Pure Clerics Turning work as it should, especially in harder difficulties. (Prob just what it was intended for)
    It will benefit Multiclass Clerics and make them more "usable" against Undead.

  18. #1178
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Big update, guys. Make sure you login early tonight.
    This won't affect the THAC0 or STORM folks, but I also noticed a change that was not mentioned in the Update 18 Release Notes. You know those mnemonic elixirs you get from the daily roll? They used to be BTC, which was bad if your fighter or other non-blue-bar character rolled. They are now BTA - and if you saved your previous ones they have also changed from BTC to BTA.

  19. #1179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    I'd also like to switch from "roll the dice for each chest and everyone loots on 1 in 10" to "a single player loots each chest and distributes what he finds throughout the party".
    After mulling it over for a long while this SOUNDS good on the surface.
    What it ends up doing is guaranteeing 1 Magic Item for the party from each and every chest you open.
    Whether or not you can make use of it is irrelevent, random treasure is supposed to be just that.....random.

    With the dice roll, for each chest you encounter you get TWO chances @ (10%) to get something.
    This also insures that there is the possibility of finding nothing at all.

    I am siding with the double dice rolls and not opening the chest. (that is a preference, not a decision yet)

    I still would like to hear a vote of "Yes" or "No" to a Death Consequence in general. No details, just you want it or don't.
    A "No" stays with the current "Carry Soulstone".
    A "Yes" opens more discussion as to the details of said consequence.

  20. #1180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    This won't affect the THAC0 or STORM folks, but I also noticed a change that was not mentioned in the Update 18 Release Notes. You know those mnemonic elixirs you get from the daily roll? They used to be BTC, which was bad if your fighter or other non-blue-bar character rolled. They are now BTA - and if you saved your previous ones they have also changed from BTC to BTA.
    Does Storm use items from the daily roll?
    The other two groups do not.

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