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  1. #1141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    I'd like to understand more of the AI behind the enemy spellcasters. In storm, the kobold shamans plain out stopped throwing lightning bolts when they were engaged in melee (and well before they were dead). Sometimes they hopped back and got into ranged mode again, but not always. In THAC0, there were no melee types in the party so we stayed at range and got continuous lightning bolts from them.

    If this AI behavior change is consistent, it seems a party with solid melee types that can charge the enemy caster and change its behavior is a real advantage. Has anyone experimented with this?
    From what I understand reading DDO.wiki, some of it depends on the difficulty level. On Hard and Elite, casters will respond much like a player's caster. Since most all mob casters lack a Touch spell, like Shocking hands, (in my observations at least), once a melee gets in their face they may try to gain some distance but more often will try to melee back. It seems that the AI will not run away for self preservation or kite.

  2. #1142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zefjoque View Post
    From what I understand reading DDO.wiki, some of it depends on the difficulty level. On Hard and Elite, casters will respond much like a player's caster. Since most all mob casters lack a Touch spell, like Shocking hands, (in my observations at least), once a melee gets in their face they may try to gain some distance but more often will try to melee back. It seems that the AI will not run away for self preservation or kite.
    That is my sense as well. The moment you force the enemy casters to melee, you've won. It fully explains the huge difference in encounter difficulty between Storm (primarily melee) and THAC0 (primarily ranged).

    Ironically, THAC0's careful approach has made the game much more dangerous for them.

  3. #1143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    That is my sense as well. The moment you force the enemy casters to melee, you've won. It fully explains the huge difference in encounter difficulty between Storm (primarily melee) and THAC0 (primarily ranged).

    Ironically, THAC0's careful approach has made the game much more dangerous for them.
    But this will change. Once THACO starts getting into mid level quests, the enemies are going to get much tougher [i.e much more hitpoints, and hit for much more damage]. We've seen just a hint of that now. Dread Zombies are much tougher than regular zombies. Flesh Renders. Beholders. Wait til we start encountering Devils. All our groups are going to have as much challenge as they can stand past level 10.
    Last edited by Zefjoque; 05-18-2013 at 03:19 PM.

  4. #1144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zefjoque View Post
    From what I understand reading DDO.wiki, some of it depends on the difficulty level. On Hard and Elite, casters will respond much like a player's caster. Since most all mob casters lack a Touch spell, like Shocking hands, (in my observations at least), once a melee gets in their face they may try to gain some distance but more often will try to melee back. It seems that the AI will not run away for self preservation or kite.
    Depends on the caster. Arcane skeletons will not melee but will continue to blast away with lightning bolts or cast hold person.

  5. #1145
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    Default This will be in both threads...

    I'm curious. This question is as much for idle readers as well as those playing in THACO and STORM. Given a choice between these two methods of death penalty which would you choose?

    1) Pema-death. Your character dies. You re-roll another character. Different STATs, class(es), skills, etc.
    In a static group this would also mean starting a character as close to the group's level as possible [1,4,7]. Most PD rules have you pass on 1 item you had as heirloom.

    Pros
    This would mean, theoretically, that you would be keenly interested in playing safe and keeping your character alive. It would impart a sense of challenge and excitement for a character getting whomped on.
    Definitely serves the purpose of a death penalty.

    Cons
    It means the player has to either play below the level of his mates, or solo to keep up within or near level parity. The character also must start out with a gear/item detriment (depending on the loaner rules).

    There are of course, more pros and cons, but these are the main two that I think affect players the most.

    2) Chimera-death. Your character dies. You now have to select another Class when you next level up. Your choice. If you die again before leveling, the choice is limited to a random roll. 1d8 for Bard, Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Wizard, Paladin, Sorcerer. If you die a third time - re-roll. You stay on the new class until you die again. Then - same as before. When you have three classes - deaths bounce from one class to the next.

    Pros
    You get to keep your original character, so you don't lose XP level parity with your mates. If you are someone who hates multi-classing, it will serve to keep you playing careful. Definitely serves the purpose of a death penalty. If you like multi-classing the random element will serve to make you play careful just as much as a pure player. Depending on your viewpoint, multi-classing also makes for a more versatile character at the expense of power, so in effect makes the game more challenging as time goes on. YMMV.

    Cons
    It can make for some truly gimped characters. Also many people do not like, at all, multi-classing. Plus there is the re-roll factor, making it much like PD - only more delayed. Last resort sort of thing.

    This is not put out there as a solution, per se, to THACO or STORM's death penalty questions. This is my own curiosity about how other players feel about alternatives to the DDO playstyle.

  6. #1146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Depends on the caster. Arcane skeletons will not melee but will continue to blast away with lightning bolts or cast hold person.
    Using the Harbor as a point of comparison for Storm and Thaco, the point is entirely valid. Storm rolled through the harbor not because of better tactics, or more magic, or more experience, or even arguably better builds. It was simply because they chose to melee the kobold shamans (and thaco didn't, which was foolish in hindsight).

    What I'm getting at is that magic items are much less critical to success than other factors like understanding the AI (except for obvious stuff, like needing ghost touch against incorporeal). So restricting magic now seems kinda pointless to me.
    Last edited by Magiker; 05-18-2013 at 05:45 PM.

  7. #1147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zefjoque View Post
    I'm curious. This question is as much for idle readers as well as those playing in THACO and STORM. Given a choice between these two methods of death penalty which would you choose?
    I'd choose chimera-death.

  8. #1148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    What I'm getting at is that magic items are much less critical to success than other factors like understanding the AI (except for obvious stuff, like needing ghost touch against incorporeal). So restricting magic now seems kinda pointless to me.
    Don't forget though, that magic items main purpose is to increase, often drastically, a players abilities. Whether they be weapons that have better damage, armor that provide better protection, garments that increase stats or items that give magic abilities to those that don't have it, the end result is giving a player the advantage over what they will encounter in the quest. Mobs, traps and Bosses.

    To play challenged is to reduce that advantage [the players advantage over the quest] as much as possible while still being enjoyable to play.

    I think this is THE key to what we all seek when we choose to move away from the DDO style of play.

    There are many ways to do this, restricting magic or lives or gear or classes or races or...

    There is no right way. And whatever way you start with will change, because the basic challenge of quests changes as they move up in levels and difficulty.

  9. #1149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zefjoque View Post
    There is no right way. And whatever way you start with will change, because the basic challenge of quests changes as they move up in levels and difficulty.
    As I said, balance is a moving target. What gets weird is, the better (smarter) you play, the less challenging it becomes. It's not always about the amount of magic items carried.

  10. #1150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zefjoque View Post
    Pros
    You get to keep your original character,
    This is not a "pro" if forced to randomize the build. If I had a level 5 paladin (which I do) and by luck of the roll had to m/c into a sorcerer, cleric, or wizard I would consider this a "con". No way I'd have fun with that. I'd rather re-roll a new level 1 character.

  11. #1151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    This is not a "pro" if forced to randomize the build. If I had a level 5 paladin (which I do) and by luck of the roll had to m/c into a sorcerer, cleric, or wizard I would consider this a "con". No way I'd have fun with that. I'd rather re-roll a new level 1 character.
    I think your defintion of fun is different from Zefjoque's. Some people just want to win, and some people just want a good challenge (and don't mind losing). Some people only care about the end result (i.e. epicness), and some people care only for the journey. Its a fundamental difference, and the factors that make one style fun inherently make the other style less fun.

    Of course there are other types of fun - some people just want to hang out and chat with friends (ever spend all night in the inn chatting away and never getting to a mission - lots of people do that). Some people like to immerse themselves in the roleplay aspect of adventuring.

    This is the 2nd time we've had this discussion in this thread (the first time being after our favored soul left the group over philosophical differences). Tukcc then updated the first post in this thread with the question "What type of player are you????" Its a good question.

  12. #1152
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    Guys, it is plain you are all passionate about your oppinions.
    As biased as "I" am about this subject, there is no "right" way to play.

    Just for clarity, "my" intent in starting this group was not to increase the challenge.
    It was to take what Turbine supplied and and "make" something that was closer to 2nd edition.
    I "preferred" 2nd edition to all the versions that came afterwards.

    I'll make a suggestion (briefly) here and discuss at length when I see ppl in game.

    Remove any and all restrictions as to what you're allowed to have EXCEPT for WEIGHT. (10% of the Max allowable)
    End rewards are Valor Only.
    Chests are NOT even opened UNLESS someone rolls a "1" on a d10 in party chat.
    Items found in breakables are 100% yours.
    The only Vendor you can use is one that supplies NORMAL items. This includes Material Components.
    No Shrine usage.

    I MAY have overlooked some small addition to the above, but this is how the Monday night group is suggested to play.

    Death "Penalty"?
    I resist using the term penalty. I'd much rather use the term "Consequence".
    Look, with as much thought as you've all put into this, none of the suggestions has been embraced by everyone.
    You can't reroll. The groups progress so slowly all ready.
    You can't multi-class. Not everybody would be having "fun".
    You can't further reduce Magic. Too many reasons to list.

    Maybe........Consider this.
    Characters who die, stay with their soulstone on the floor.
    After the Quest is resolved, the player chooses ONE of his items and DESTROYS EVERYTHING ELSE. (I mean everything, even banked items)
    That character then re-equips using normal item vendors only.

    The character effectively becomes a NEW character of the same Level/Race/Class as the previous.
    Items disposition follows guidelines I read from a PD Guild.

    Think about this before replying.

  13. #1153
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Guys, it is plain you are all passionate about your oppinions.
    As biased as "I" am about this subject, there is no "right" way to play.

    Just for clarity, "my" intent in starting this group was not to increase the challenge.
    It was to take what Turbine supplied and and "make" something that was closer to 2nd edition.
    I "preferred" 2nd edition to all the versions that came afterwards.

    I'll make a suggestion (briefly) here and discuss at length when I see ppl in game.

    Remove any and all restrictions as to what you're allowed to have EXCEPT for WEIGHT. (10% of the Max allowable)
    End rewards are Valor Only.
    Chests are NOT even opened UNLESS someone rolls a "1" on a d10 in party chat.
    Items found in breakables are 100% yours.
    The only Vendor you can use is one that supplies NORMAL items. This includes Material Components.
    No Shrine usage.

    I MAY have overlooked some small addition to the above, but this is how the Monday night group is suggested to play.

    Death "Penalty"?
    I resist using the term penalty. I'd much rather use the term "Consequence".
    Look, with as much thought as you've all put into this, none of the suggestions has been embraced by everyone.
    You can't reroll. The groups progress so slowly all ready.
    You can't multi-class. Not everybody would be having "fun".
    You can't further reduce Magic. Too many reasons to list.

    Maybe........Consider this.
    Characters who die, stay with their soulstone on the floor.
    After the Quest is resolved, the player chooses ONE of his items and DESTROYS EVERYTHING ELSE. (I mean everything, even banked items)
    That character then re-equips using normal item vendors only.

    The character effectively becomes a NEW character of the same Level/Race/Class as the previous.
    Items disposition follows guidelines I read from a PD Guild.

    Think about this before replying.
    I like it! Definitely incents players to stay alive but without the shock and awe of requiring a delete and reroll (which can be brutal if players have a run of bad luck and cannot roll up veterans).

  14. #1154
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Maybe........Consider this.
    Characters who die, stay with their soulstone on the floor.
    After the Quest is resolved, the player chooses ONE of his items and DESTROYS EVERYTHING ELSE. (I mean everything, even banked items)
    That character then re-equips using normal item vendors only.

    The character effectively becomes a NEW character of the same Level/Race/Class as the previous.
    Items disposition follows guidelines I read from a PD Guild.

    Think about this before replying.
    I'm good with it.

  15. #1155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    I think your defintion of fun is different from Zefjoque's.
    Agreed, though maybe the term "definition of fun" is not exactly correct, as "fun" is not a word with several meanings. I do get your point and agree though. Fun remains fun, but what I consider fun vs what someone else considers fun may not be the same thing. I think you are right.

    I have fun playing DDO with the STORM group, you and Intruder included. However, within DDO certain things are fun to me, like playing Paladins, Rangers, and some multiclassing to include fighters, rogues, or artificers. DDO is not fun to me when playing Wizards or Sorcerers or Clerics. So while ANY character might do if DDO was just hanging out in a tavern chatting with each other, that is not the case when playing against the AI in quests. Thus my comment about pro vs con in his death penalty.. ahem I mean death consequence question.

    Honestly, any magic rules or lack thereof are okay by me, as I have said all along. It is still fun.

    So it seems we have opened up and inter-mixed several topics which are related, yet distinctly different.

    1. Original goal - to make DDO playable with D&D 2nd Edition.
    2. The power factor - how much do you need or not need to retain balance WHEN attempting to use 2nd edition rules.
    3. Fun - how much fun is it playing in a way that uses 2nd Edition rules? Would "winning" more make it more fun? At what cost? Drifting too far from 2nd edition? Quests too easy? Too hard?
    4. Which leads to another question of "balance", but not in regard to easy/hard, but rather balance in respect to "playable" with 2nd edition rules vs, the DDO game design/mechanics.

  16. #1156
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    Proposed by Magicker in another thread (in regards to another subject)

    Thinking about the things to which a death penalty can attach:
    1. toon's existence (if you die, delete and start over from level 1)
    2. XP (if you die, you must immediately release from dungeon)
    3. build (if you die, something like suggested above happens to your build)
    4. items (if you die, sacrifice x magic items)
    5. playtime (if you die, then your soulstone stays where it fell until the quest is over)

    How about something like this?
    1. first death (within any given level) = #5.
    2. second death (within any given level) = player chooses between options #2, #3, #4.
    3. third death (within any given level) = #1.
    And when you gain a new level, you go back to the top of this list.

    Giving the player a choice will level out the impact amongst players that have different expectations of the game (i.e. end-gamer vs. RP vs. challenge vs. etc.)

    *
    Of course this would be hard to implement now (maybe) with THACO and probably be unlikely with the STORM and Muggle group [like that? - i just made that up ].
    *

    Let me say that I personally have no problem with the system(s) we play with now. I know that the subjects death "consequences" [love that ] and magic items are continuously brought up and re-evaluated. And I know that Intruder1 is aware that this is a natural occurrence with the progression of the group as it levels.


    As for intruders suggestions :

    Remove any and all restrictions as to what you're allowed to have EXCEPT for WEIGHT. (10% of the Max allowable)

    You lose one of the core concepts of THACO play style, limited magic.

    After looking closely at the Difficulty levels and Dungeon scaling, it is apparent that magic item restriction and Normal Quest difficulty go hand in hand. Once you bump up to Hard and Elite, whats going to unfairly unbalance a group is the high DC's of traps, characters combat tactics vs. mobs and boss CR. Those difficulty levels were made with GEAR in mind. GEAR that bumps Search and Spot, GEAR that bumps D/D and Locks. Gear that bumps STR and DEX [Trip and AC] and other stats (INT, WIS and CHR) [casters Spell pen and spell resistance]. If you go HARD or above you need GEAR. Maybe not in the low level quests, but certainly after level 4-5. Even a fully dedicated Drow rogue with max INT and DEX and Skill focus and Nimble Fingers and all the enhancement boosts will struggle to find and disable Traps in Elite on quests above level 5. Most all DC's are above 21, right? By level 8 they are above, what, level 25? And that Rogue has zero fun playing a Platinum Seal Hireling. Casters will have a hard time landing spells on plain old mobs without boosting their primary spell casting STAT. Melee will have an equally hard time landing Trip and Sunder and Stun.

    These issues have already been brought up in the different THACO groups. They are all valid points and the solution seems be either:

    1) go Normal with limited gear and magic
    2) go Hard or Elite with a sliding scale of magic items as the DC's scale

    I know it has been said that the Quests should be tailored to the Group. But the choice of quests diminish as the levels go up. Plus some quests are not as fun as others. A quest shouldn't be unconsidered simply because it is unsuitable to the groups strengths or weaknesses.

    End rewards are Valor Only.
    I actually think that this should be rolled for just like chests in the Muggle group. Maybe by per player instead of as a group. (That dirty so and so held out on me but gave him a +1 Muggle beater! Besterd!)

    Chests are NOT even opened UNLESS someone rolls a "1" on a d10 in party chat.
    To many other useful items in a chest besides the magic stuff. We are not spoiled children that we can't pretend that TOTALLY AWESOME +3 DWARVEN AX OF LACERATING was in there! Aww com'on Tukcc...
    Passing by a chest is not good for psychological health.

    Items found in breakables are 100% yours.
    Damn straight. This is mine and that is mine and that one too. I did totally brake it, u know it!!!

    The only Vendor you can use is one that supplies NORMAL items. This includes Material Components.
    Reasonable. If you wish to limit magic.

    No Shrine usage.
    Once again this is part of the core of this style of play.

    Something Intruder1 said:

    Just for clarity, "my" intent in starting this group was not to increase the challenge.
    It was to take what Turbine supplied and and "make" something that was closer to 2nd edition.
    I "preferred" 2nd edition to all the versions that came afterwards.


    Just what was it about 2nd edition rules that you liked and missed in DDO?

    Some of those same things are what other players also found lacking. Look at the rule sets for Mortal Voyage and The Core. Sublime Permadeath. They all are looking for similar gameplay elements. Challenge and excitement. Less gear grinding and more immersion.

    AND playing in this way with other like minded folks so as to HAVE FUN.

    Permadeath strikes a chord with a lot of people, and it is fun. However some get burnt out with re-rolling a character time after time.

    Some would rather play a limited form of DDO without the Permadeath, and hang the death "consequences".

    I think eventually a playstyle will be hit upon, a rule-set flexible enough yet limited in "power" that most anyone who haunts this forum will give it a go and there will be enough people to keep it alive.

    Sorry for the wall of text. Ideas are so damn expensive as far as word count goes.
    Last edited by Zefjoque; 05-19-2013 at 02:57 PM.

  17. #1157
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    Remove any and all restrictions as to what you're allowed to have EXCEPT for WEIGHT. (10% of the Max allowable)

    You lose one of the core concepts of THACO play style, limited magic.
    If you get to keep 10% of everything, and understanding that most chests don't have what you want, and if you lose everything except 1 heirloom item upon death...I suspect that being overgeared is not going to be a problem.

    This does raise the good point of how the elite and hard groups will operate without "helper" items. Do hard groups get 20% of everything and elite groups 30%? Or will they get specific admin items? How will that work?

  18. #1158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Agreed, though maybe the term "definition of fun" is not exactly correct, as "fun" is not a word with several meanings. I do get your point and agree though. Fun remains fun, but what I consider fun vs what someone else considers fun may not be the same thing. I think you are right.

    I have fun playing DDO with the STORM group, you and Intruder included. However, within DDO certain things are fun to me, like playing Paladins, Rangers, and some multiclassing to include fighters, rogues, or artificers. DDO is not fun to me when playing Wizards or Sorcerers or Clerics. So while ANY character might do if DDO was just hanging out in a tavern chatting with each other, that is not the case when playing against the AI in quests. Thus my comment about pro vs con in his death penalty.. ahem I mean death consequence question.

    Honestly, any magic rules or lack thereof are okay by me, as I have said all along. It is still fun.

    So it seems we have opened up and inter-mixed several topics which are related, yet distinctly different.

    1. Original goal - to make DDO playable with D&D 2nd Edition.
    2. The power factor - how much do you need or not need to retain balance WHEN attempting to use 2nd edition rules.
    3. Fun - how much fun is it playing in a way that uses 2nd Edition rules? Would "winning" more make it more fun? At what cost? Drifting too far from 2nd edition? Quests too easy? Too hard?
    4. Which leads to another question of "balance", but not in regard to easy/hard, but rather balance in respect to "playable" with 2nd edition rules vs, the DDO game design/mechanics.
    Although attempted, certain things in DDO are 3.5 and can not be excluded. If you take the guidelines i outlined and play "at level" and at "Normal", that would be a good starting place.
    Lower level modules are SUPPOSED to be rather easy, increasing in "challenge" as level of Module (Quest) goes up.

    Monday night group has the least to alter to adapt this playstyle.
    There ARE some things that the other two groups must do to "get ready" for this playstyle.

  19. #1159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    This does raise the good point of how the elite and hard groups will operate without "helper" items. Do hard groups get 20% of everything and elite groups 30%? Or will they get specific admin items? How will that work?
    I'm beginning to think that the key is not Hard or Elite but LEVEL. For level quests 1-4/5 Hard or Elite is doable without a lot of magic enhancing items. Agreed?

    Level quests 5/6-8/9 Hard or Elite DC's for Trapping seem to require some GEAR. Trap damage is one shot kill. Caster damage is often too quick to mitigate without GEAR. Agree?

    Past level 10, GEAR begins to be absolutely necessary for plain survival. The DDO.wiki on Dungeon Scaling specifically states:


    HARD
    Enemies are always a higher CR, and have far higher statistics designed to challenge more PREPARED parties.
    Traps are greatly increased in difficulty, in terms of damage dealt, save DC and skill DC needed to disable them. They are intended to challenge decently-geared rogues of appropriate level.
    Hard is intended for full, well-balanced groups of 6 players, or 12 if it's a raid.

    ELITE
    Enemies are always a higher CR than on Hard, and have far higher statistics designed to challenge very well seasoned veteran parties.
    Traps are massively increased in difficulty, in terms of damage dealt, save DC and skill DC needed to disable them. They are intended to seriously challenge decently-geared rogues of appropriate level.
    Elite is intended for full, WELL-PREPARED, well-balanced groups of 6 players, or 12 if it's a raid.


    So how about over-leveling. Going into a quest ON NORMAL either at level or 1 level higher with NO to LOW gear? By LOW gear I mean number of items equipped, not the ML or Potential. I think this would do away with the growing need for Rogues to have to specialize into Trapping and nothing else, with Melee's falling behind in their combat tactics, and with casters failing in their spell pen. and spell resistance.
    Last edited by Zefjoque; 05-19-2013 at 04:17 PM.

  20. #1160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    If you get to keep 10% of everything, and understanding ............
    I think you missed the point.....
    10% referres to encumberence. The only "restriction" left to play by.
    Not meant to act as a limit of items.


    Also.......Hard and Elite? This set of guidelines would not work for any other difficulty than Normal (and Casual).

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