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  1. #1681
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fricko View Post
    Cogoiler, and several other of my Rogues are pure Mechanics, one at level 19, another at 24. I do not play Assassin because I prefer the Scouting, Sneak/Hide, and Spot/Search/Disable, which enables the making my own traps from parts salvaged. The Mechanic function is to clear the way for fellow party members. That used to be Cog's job, the slot he filled. More and more, it seems that the very reason for his existence is being carved away, because what I enjoy apparently gets in the way of what others enjoy. What I am hearing is that a Mechanic Rogue really is not necessary on Normal.

    Cogs does traps for you. You do not want traps done for you. Currently, without trapping duties, Cogs is a Great Crossbow Fighter, but without the benefit of heavy armor or HP.

    Do you really thjink it is fun to have a blown trap kill you, and have your very limited and rare magic equipment redlined with permanent damage? Remember when that is exactly what happened to Cogs on a fairly regular basis? I do. Fun and funny for you maybe. Not so much for me and Cogs.

    If you really want to run quests on normal without a Rogue, Cogs can be retired, and another character created quite easily.

    -Sam
    As I feared, you don't understand what I'm trying to communicate. Probably my fault as I'm not the best writer.

    What I want is for an element of danger/challenge to exist. Cogs rolled a "1" last night on a Disarm attempt and still succeeded in the Disarm attempt. That should never happen. Contrast that to when Cogs rolled an "11" and failed (without explosion). The team buffed him, and he tried again knowing (even with the buffs) that here was a dangerous trapbox. Every healer had their finger on the heal button. Success! Which of these two situations was superior?

    Nobody wants a trapbox to blow up on a player. But I, for one, want the risk of the trap box blowing up. I want a rogue to have the chance to disarm a trap with some element of danger. I want a rogue to ask his teammates for help after a first failed attempt without buffs. I want a rogue to step back after a first failed attempt, take a hard look at trap that can be avoided, and suggest his team do so instead of risking the explosion. I want a rogue who, after spotting both monsters and a trap, suggests to the party leader that the trap be used against those monsters.

    What I do not want is a rogue that can attempt a trap "n" times in a row until it finally opens. I don't want the "elite trap" mentality, which is appropriate for Elite, to dictate our choices on a Normal setting.

    Tukcc stated last night that he had a plan for this. Good enough for me.

    Sam, please reply because its important to me that you understand what I'm trying to communicate here (even if you don't agree with it).
    Last edited by Magiker; 10-31-2013 at 07:58 AM.

  2. #1682
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Ahh got it, thanks.
    FOMO is a term I have been exposed to lately. It is a human behavior that impacts all of our lives, and is REALLY evident in DDO.
    The term is used a lot in the Stock Market to explain the stress.
    In DDO, as Magiker has stated, is the "Fear" that you'll miss something if you don't obtain EVERYTHING that is presented to your character.
    It is why SOME of you INSIST on opening a chest that you failed a roll for. Even though you know it is not available to take.
    It is why SOME of you take End Rewards even though you know it is against Guild Guidelines.

    That reminds me.....I would like a chat with Aldur and Veolette on Monday before we get started.

  3. #1683
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    As I feared, you don't understand what I'm trying to communicate. Probably my fault as I'm not the best writer.

    What I want is for an element of danger/challenge to exist. Cogs rolled a "1" last night on a Disarm attempt and still succeeded in the Disarm attempt. That should never happen. Contrast that to when Cogs rolled an "11" and failed (without explosion). The team buffed him, and he tried again knowing (even with the buffs) that here was a dangerous trapbox. Every healer had their finger on the heal button. Success! Which of these two situations was superior?

    Nobody wants a trapbox to blow up on a player. But I, for one, want the risk of the trap box blowing up. I want a rogue to have the chance to disarm a trap with some element of danger. I want a rogue to ask his teammates for help after a first failed attempt without buffs. I want a rogue to step back after a first failed attempt, take a hard look at trap that can be avoided, and suggest his team do so instead of risking the explosion. I want a rogue who, after spotting both monsters and a trap, suggests to the party leader that the trap be used against those monsters.

    What I do not want is a rogue that can attempt a trap "n" times in a row until it finally opens. I don't want the "elite trap" mentality, which is appropriate for Elite, to dictate our choices on a Normal setting.

    Tukcc stated last night that he had a plan for this. Good enough for me.

    Sam, please reply because its important to me that you understand what I'm trying to communicate here (even if you don't agree with it).
    I think I do understand that you desire an element of risk in the Disable function that a highly skilled Mechanic is not likely to confront. I agree that last night was exciting, even if a bit confusing to poor Cogs. I was on the edge of my seat when rolling that series of high numbers on Disable, waiting for a low one to tell me if I was going to have the same chance of finishing the quest as the rest of you, or was going to spend the evening in a Wilderness alone for your "explosive" entertainment. Then came the failures! Tension mounted dramatically! Failing on an eight, then an eleven! OMG! I kept wondering if I was going to leave yet another quest unfinished. Cogs has a lot of those in his history already.

    Yes it was exciting, but NOT a worthwhile risk from Cogs perspective, when he has spent his entire career attempting to become the very best Mechanic training and abilities will allow. He takes great pride in that training, and in those abilities, and in the job he does for the team. He tries to keep his friends safe when bad critters try to see them injured or dead.

    I simply do not see the "fun" of making the Mechanic take deadly risks that his very profession demand he lower as close to zero as possible, much in the same way a Police Bomb Disposal Officer wearing "The Demon" suit would not attempt a disarm until he was confident he could do so safely. From Cogs perspective, what you are wishing for is insane behavior on his part. He is not crazy, just drunk!

    I understand wanting the excitement, and introducing the risk to create the tension we experienced last night, but the down side is much too heavy for Cogs to carry. Death for him already comes too often and carries consequences he is still paying for in red-lined equipment he had to sell as damaged to the point of useless.

    It really is easy to recreate Cogs (or Waldhorn) as another class. He has the free Lesser Heart of Wood thingy and has used it on other characters to see how it works. Simple enough even Old Sam can do it! Going Rogue-less will take less than 30 minutes of my time to make the switch.

    -Sam

  4. #1684
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fricko View Post
    I think I do understand that you desire an element of risk in the Disable function that a highly skilled Mechanic is not likely to confront. I agree that last night was exciting, even if a bit confusing to poor Cogs. I was on the edge of my seat when rolling that series of high numbers on Disable, waiting for a low one to tell me if I was going to have the same chance of finishing the quest as the rest of you, or was going to spend the evening in a Wilderness alone for your "explosive" entertainment. Then came the failures! Tension mounted dramatically! Failing on an eight, then an eleven! OMG! I kept wondering if I was going to leave yet another quest unfinished. Cogs has a lot of those in his history already.

    Yes it was exciting, but NOT a worthwhile risk from Cogs perspective, when he has spent his entire career attempting to become the very best Mechanic training and abilities will allow. He takes great pride in that training, and in those abilities, and in the job he does for the team. He tries to keep his friends safe when bad critters try to see them injured or dead.

    I simply do not see the "fun" of making the Mechanic take deadly risks that his very profession demand he lower as close to zero as possible, much in the same way a Police Bomb Disposal Officer wearing "The Demon" suit would not attempt a disarm until he was confident he could do so safely. From Cogs perspective, what you are wishing for is insane behavior on his part. He is not crazy, just drunk!

    I understand wanting the excitement, and introducing the risk to create the tension we experienced last night, but the down side is much too heavy for Cogs to carry. Death for him already comes too often and carries consequences he is still paying for in red-lined equipment he had to sell as damaged to the point of useless.

    It really is easy to recreate Cogs (or Waldhorn) as another class. He has the free Lesser Heart of Wood thingy and has used it on other characters to see how it works. Simple enough even Old Sam can do it! Going Rogue-less will take less than 30 minutes of my time to make the switch.

    -Sam
    Just one more question, I promise! Are you taking your own experience from Elite traps and directly transferring it to Normal traps? Because trap explosions on Normal are not regularly deadly - the consequences of trap failure is much different on Elite vs Normal. I highly doubt Cogs would die from a trap explosion on Normal. This sounds like an experiment for Tukcc to perform - Tukcc???

  5. #1685
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    Ok, it took me a while to notice the OTHER posts since I replied to the previous.

    Magiker.....Please control your passionate viewpoint. I DO understand what you're thinking but it is not helping.

    The six players that have been playing for more than a year and a half have had the benifit of being able to "absorb" the concepts we all have designed.
    The "newer" players are being critisized for seeing things differently.....and this is unfair to them.

    Aldur........your participation is excellent. There is no reason to believe your knowledge of DDO will hamper ALL of us from having a great time together.
    Cogoiler.....your skills (all of them) are (and will be) needed to successfully keep this group alive.

    Statement: Disarming a Trap is a Role-Playing requirement in Classic D&D. Rogues in DDO are, by design, MEANT to play at Elite Difficulty merely because of all the Skills, Feats, Enhancements and Magic Items made available to them to defeat traps at that Difficulty. Turbine HAS to make it that way or "that end" of the client base won't be able to function.

    WE, on the other end of the client base, have to determine which things to disallow in order to, 1) Make sure Traps are ABLE to be Disarmed, and yet, 2) try to insure that the odds of doing this don't become so high to be an Easy Button.

    Every one of you has a unique personality to contribute to the Guild we have made. It would be unrealistic to expect there would not be disagreements.
    This is actually something I WANTED in a good group of players because you all have helped to make this experiment a success.

    Monday and Wednesday Groups are well constructed and work great together, let's keep it that way.

    Last night Cogs succeeded on a "1" and failed on an "11". Gentlemen, all bets are off in assuming what we think we know about Traps. The last few updates have shown they are INDIVIDUAL.
    If he succeeded on a "1", Turbine INTENDED that the box be disarmed because it's DC had to be so low almost anyone could have done it.
    A "Fail" on an 11 is NORMAL for Traps at Level in Normal Difficulty.
    The fact that he was then Buffed AND he used his own boost demonstrated that there is too much available to help him.
    His Skills, along with some Quality Tools, should be the only determinates. Buffs and Boosts are not Classic in my oppinion.
    FOMO dominates Trapping by fostering the oppinion "if I can't succeed, I'm worthless." This is NOT the case.
    If the control box did not explode, the fear of failing would be replaced with the assumption of "Damn, it's too tough for me." (Turbine? Are you taking notice?)

    Again, just as a reminder......
    No character should be in possession of any Magic Item that is an "End Reward". This does include Korthos "Sets".
    No character should possess any Item that modifies the Disarm or Search Skills. Items that modify Spot are acceptable.

  6. #1686
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fricko View Post
    Yes it was exciting, but NOT a worthwhile risk from Cogs perspective, when he has spent his entire career attempting to become the very best Mechanic training and abilities will allow. He takes great pride in that training, and in those abilities, and in the job he does for the team. He tries to keep his friends safe when bad critters try to see them injured or dead.

    I simply do not see the "fun" of making the Mechanic take deadly risks that his very profession demand he lower as close to zero as possible, much in the same way a Police Bomb Disposal Officer wearing "The Demon" suit would not attempt a disarm until he was confident he could do so safely. From Cogs perspective, what you are wishing for is insane behavior on his part. He is not crazy, just drunk!


    -Sam
    Sam. Trapping is never supposed to be accomplished by such an "Expert" in Classic. Mechanic is not Classic, it's DDO.
    It is always supposed to have inherant risks.

    The stress you felt last night is what is supposed to happen.

  7. #1687
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    There's a REASON I always ask you for your Disarm and Search numbers!
    It's to make sure you're in the "Zone".
    Like I told you before, "Aiming for more Successes than Failures, but always keeping you Humble."

  8. #1688
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    Default "Fun" = perspective!

    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Just one more question, I promise! Are you taking your own experience from Elite traps and directly transferring it to Normal traps? Because trap explosions on Normal are not regularly deadly - the consequences of trap failure is much different on Elite vs Normal. I highly doubt Cogs would die from a trap explosion on Normal. This sounds like an experiment for Tukcc to perform - Tukcc???
    I really do not recall, though we experimented with various difficulty levels, and with equipment on and off. I do remember blown trap boxes exploding in my face on normal early in our gaming, and spending time "ghosting" or in the tavern while others laughed and chatted it up in the quest without me. Not much fun, but apparently suitable "punishment" for failure to survive due to bad gamesmanship, or simple bad luck (the trap box difficulty?), or not ducking the Kobold Shaman's Lighten-bolt. I stopped attempting to Role-Play my characters in THACO long ago, and now "build" them to survive instead of accepting weaknesses to support the Character idiosyncrasies. The current rules place enough "weaknesses" on players as is.

    Would Cogoiler die now? I do not know. I do know trap boxes have killed him in the past, and not on Elite! I do know his equipment has acquired large red bars of damage that made them useless to the point they were sold.

    A thinly armored, low HP, no Diplomacy Rogue is at risk in every battle we fight, I see no reason to add more risk at the trap box for nothing more than the potential excitement of seeing the box explode in his face. The "fun factor" must depend on where you are viewing the event from, Cog's perspective, or yours!

    -Sam

  9. #1689
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    Default "Unable to Disarm" - "Jump the blades!"

    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Sam. Trapping is never supposed to be accomplished by such an "Expert" in Classic. Mechanic is not Classic, it's DDO.
    It is always supposed to have inherant risks.

    The stress you felt last night is what is supposed to happen.
    I never played AD&D, but in First Edition D&D the trap was either disabled, or not disabled. If not disabled, the characters had to roll against their DEX to see if they could avoid the consequences should they attempt to advance through the trapped zone.

    Might I suggest that a single "Failure" to Disarm be treated as "Unable to Disarm", and the Trap's consequences then be faced by all who attempt it?

    =

    "I can't disable this trap!" Cogs shook his head in dismay.

    "Then we have no choice," Tukcc responded grimly. "Jump the blades!"

    Kierik smiled slyly, and simply walked under the blades, which swished by inches over his head. "Tall peoples jump, normal peoples can just ignore them!"

    =

    Cogs would not face exploding traps on a regular basis, allowing him to defeat Tukcc's purpose in making the poor Rogue uglier than him, while adding that extra excitement some seem to crave?

    -Sam

  10. #1690
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    But did he roll a natural 1. Remember many dice rolls you see on screen are not 'actual'. Also from quest to quest traps have differing dc's. Some traps cannot be disabled. Traps can kill on normal esp with your minimum ruleset also think about fortification, it can stop critical damage from weapons but does not stop critical failures from traps i/e. blade trap.
    Imagine if when you rolled a 1 to hit and that caused you to drop your weapon or something worse.
    Imagine the same with all the skill etc dice rollls you made.
    Not sure about spells but imagine if the monster rolled a 20 and something then happened to the spellcaster.
    All these things would be amusing once or twice but not multiple times a gaming session.
    In DDO you cannnot use a long pole to set of a trap, attach a rope to the ceiling to swing acroos it. No spiderclimb spells.
    Buffing is at the very core of pnp why else would anyone ever memorise resist fire or blur. If we all had the same version of fun how unfunny would that be :-)

    Anyway it was nice dropping in to see you last night. I'll surprise that dastardly Grondley some other time :-)
    Just awestruck, wether it be a Dragon flying overhead Stormreach, that glowing character who just zoomed in'n'out of the Pub, or that i can drink a Beholder under the table and best of all rescuing Damsels in distress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fricko View Post
    Would Cogoiler die now? I do not know. I do know trap boxes have killed him in the past, and not on Elite! I do know his equipment has acquired large red bars of damage that made them useless to the point they were sold.
    I remember Cogs dying way too often on Elite because of blown trap disarm attempts (i.e. trap box blew up), and also on Hard to a lesser degree. I don't recall that ever happening on Normal. The only time someone ever died from a trap on Normal was because: a) failure to Spot trap, b) failure to Search for trap box (i.e. recent 2 trap box fiasco), c) could not Disarm and fat-fingered during mad dash through trap. Death never happened from a failed Disarm attempt (i.e. trap box explosion) on Normal. But if it turns out that blown disarm attempts (i.e. trap box explosions) on Normal have a significant chance of resulting in rogue death, then I am not for that. I think we need some experimental data. Perhaps I'll spend some time on Korthos this weekend.

    SlowDM, it was good to see you in the party chat last night. Regarding this conversation, I do understand that traps can kill on Normal. But that is not what we're talking about. We're talking about the trap box explosion from a failed Disarm attempt. Those don't kill on Normal to my understanding.
    Last edited by Magiker; 10-31-2013 at 05:43 PM.

  12. #1692
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    Default Hate to say this...

    Sorry to change the subject but I thought it was best to let everyone know ASAP. I found out today that with the New Year I'll be switched to night shift at work. With the schedule the way it is I'll be unable to play evenings. This won't be such a big deal with STORM, since we're just starting out, but Mon. and Wed. will take a big hit to the group dynamics. At least now the two groups can actively look for a replacement. We'll have two more months, 8 game nights, together until...

    Looks like it'll be a while still before I ever see the Sands or Gianthold. <sigh>.

  13. #1693
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fricko View Post
    =

    "I can't disable this trap!" Cogs shook his head in dismay.

    "Then we have no choice," Tukcc responded grimly. "Jump the blades!"

    Kierik smiled slyly, and simply walked under the blades, which swished by inches over his head. "Tall peoples jump, normal peoples can just ignore them!"

    =

    -Sam
    I am going to try some exploding control boxes and figure out how lethal they are on Normal.
    It would be perfect if they just "broke", rather than explode, but we have no control over that.
    I would like to see a 50-50 chance to either disarm or be forced to somehow evade a trap's effects.
    I know we can't exactly do that, but by limiting the adjustments to Disarm, I think we can get close.

    All we have to do is assure our Rogues that the box goes "POP" instead of "BOOM".

  14. #1694
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    Default Lets try an experiment...

    The different characters will have different luck at getting through a blown trap. What if we just ignored the trap box on the first one we come to and see how it goes.

    Tukcc has this rule about getting back to the beginning of the quest. Because of that, sometimes I like to use a 'fun' item on him, namely grease clicky on a ramp.

    Sorry to hear about your schedule change Zef, you'll be missed.


    Originally posted by Aeryyn "I don't play this game for xp/min, I play for fun/hour. "

  15. #1695
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    Default Sad news, indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    Sorry to change the subject but I thought it was best to let everyone know ASAP. I found out today that with the New Year I'll be switched to night shift at work. With the schedule the way it is I'll be unable to play evenings. This won't be such a big deal with STORM, since we're just starting out, but Mon. and Wed. will take a big hit to the group dynamics. At least now the two groups can actively look for a replacement. We'll have two more months, 8 game nights, together until...

    Looks like it'll be a while still before I ever see the Sands or Gianthold. <sigh>.
    Calibhan and Blodhund will be really missed by this old man. I sure hope things change later on and get you back where you belong during the week. You take care, and make sure you show up with STORM on Sundays!

    -Sam

  16. #1696
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    Quote Originally Posted by zefjoe View Post
    Sorry to change the subject but I thought it was best to let everyone know ASAP. I found out today that with the New Year I'll be switched to night shift at work. With the schedule the way it is I'll be unable to play evenings. This won't be such a big deal with STORM, since we're just starting out, but Mon. and Wed. will take a big hit to the group dynamics. At least now the two groups can actively look for a replacement. We'll have two more months, 8 game nights, together until...

    Looks like it'll be a while still before I ever see the Sands or Gianthold. <sigh>.
    Sad to see you go Joe. You've been a good mate and we've had some great discussions on "out of the box" builds. WHenever you manage to log on, shoot me a PM and we'll meet up.

    Am I reading correctly that Sundays is also included in nights you cannot make? If that is the case, you are still going to be in the guild. Maybe you can keep pace with our leveling what ever time you get to play. That way if you get back on daywork, you can join back in.

    We have a bunch of folks already who are side by side leveling characters. Having someone to level with will not be a problem I would think.

  17. #1697
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    Default Trap Boxes on Normal do no damage!

    Just spent some time exploring "Hiding in Plain Sight" at Normal Difficulty.
    This is the last Quest Wednesday night group completed and is filled with Traps.
    I took a Rogue with a paultry Disarm Skill of 10 and attempted to disarm 8 Traps.
    Imagine my surprise when 5 of them exploded for absolutely NO damage!
    The other 3 succeeded and 2 of them Failed without exploding them.
    And No, Evade did not even enter into the picture.
    I also realize it was only 1 quest tested, but that's what happened.

    The DC of each of the Traps was 18, just where I expected it to be, with a disarm of ~22. Again, just what I expected.
    His Disarm Skill of 10, plus +1 from Normal Tools, gave him an adjustment of +11.

    You can do the math, but this test was a bit UNlucky and he ended up Critically Failing ~62% of the time, with 1 succeeding after a fail, and 1 exploding after a fail.

    The point is that on Normal, exploding Control boxes just break, but do not do any damage.

    Guys, I have been telling you that Normal is heading for more of a "Classic" environment.
    Last edited by intruder1; 10-31-2013 at 08:57 PM.

  18. #1698
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Just spent some time exploring "Hiding in Plain Sight" at Normal Difficulty.
    This is the last Quest Wednesday night group completed and is filled with Traps.
    I took a Rogue with a paultry Disarm Skill of 10 and attempted to disarm 8 Traps.
    Imagine my surprise when 5 of them exploded for absolutely NO damage!
    The other 3 succeeded and 2 of them Failed without exploding them.
    And No, Evade did not even enter into the picture.
    I also realize it was only 1 quest tested, but that's what happened.

    The DC of each of the Traps was 18, just where I expected it to be, with a disarm of ~22. Again, just what I expected.
    His Disarm Skill of 10, plus +1 from Normal Tools, gave him an adjustment of +11.

    You can do the math, but this test was a bit lucky and he ended up succeeding ~62% of the time, with 1 succeeding after a fail, and 1 exploding after a fail.

    The point is that on Normal, exploding Control boxes just break, but do not do any damage.

    Guys, I have been telling you that Normal is heading for more of a "Classic" environment.
    I will take a look at Cogs trapping skills, with a do-over of his Mechanic enhancements, to take Disable off the max, and stop using skill boosts to assist with Disable. We will soon find out what happens with a full party and the scaling we get. *crosses his fingers and takes another pull on the XXX jug-o-courage!*

  19. #1699
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    Default I have a weird schedule.

    Am I reading correctly that Sundays is also included in nights you cannot make? If that is the case, you are still going to be in the guild. Maybe you can keep pace with our leveling what ever time you get to play. That way if you get back on daywork, you can join back in.
    I have rotating days[nights] per week. Couple this with the odd skipped night and I will quickly fall behind. Both in xp and quest chains. Plus the group would often be lacking in a rogue or cleric [not so much in STORM]. I foresee it becoming a headache trying to keep up.

    The shift allotment lasts for the YEAR. That's why they give heads up so far in advance for folks to make arrangements if they have kids or whatnot.

    I'll definitely continue to play during day time. I have at the moment a character that is much like Quarrel, only a half-elf at level 4 [Rogue/Ranger/Bard split]. So she will be available for day play. I might continue to level Quarrel, but I think my other is a superior character.

  20. #1700
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    Default Cogoiler Skills reset.

    I reset Cogoiler Enhancements to eliminate points in Disable and Locks.

    New Unboosted Skills are:

    Spot = 22

    Search = 23

    Disable = 20

    OL = 19

    You all huddle around him now, get up real close so you can see his trembly fingers as they work on the trap box! *wicked grin*

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