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  1. #1661
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    I apologize if I made it easy.

    But, as there is only one path to the Sky Spirit and the propensity for folks "falling" off cliffs, I thought I would make it possible for us to actually complete the adventure. If I killed the fun, I am sorry.

    I will keep my trap shut in the future.
    It's all good.
    We had a similar "learning curve" issue last year with the Wed group because of "FOMO". (Fear Of Missing Out)
    One of the concepts we are trying to foster is that we have fun even if our characters don't progress in XP.
    Wandering around and falling of the cliffs would have prevented the Quest completion, but the fun of doing so more than makes up for it.

    Keep in mind the Groups Motto: It's not the Destination, but the Journey that makes each gamenight special.

  2. #1662
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    It's all good.
    We had a similar "learning curve" issue last year with the Wed group because of "FOMO". (Fear Of Missing Out)
    One of the concepts we are trying to foster is that we have fun even if our characters don't progress in XP.
    Wandering around and falling of the cliffs would have prevented the Quest completion, but the fun of doing so more than makes up for it.

    Keep in mind the Groups Motto: It's not the Destination, but the Journey that makes each gamenight special.
    I am still trying to convince some (cough...Cogs...cough) that NOT disarming traps on Normal is the more fun option. Once spotted and searched, a trap on Normal is a great party challenge and can be lots of fun.

    On the other hand, the "stand still for several minutes while the rogue single-handedly does the auto spot-search-disarm-rinse-repeat" approach to traps is a real buzz kill.

    There is a tendency for people to think that a rogue that can't auto-disarm is a useless rogue. That is DDO thinking at its very worst.

    I propose a new THAC0 rule for consideration: no ranks may be put into the Disarm skill (i.e. Disarm does not exist).
    Last edited by Magiker; 10-30-2013 at 09:04 AM.

  3. #1663
    2015 DDO Players Council Hazelnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    It's all good.
    ...
    Keep in mind the Groups Motto: It's not the Destination, but the Journey that makes each gamenight special.
    Missing out on the journey totally sucks when you are on a really fun quest and an "oops" happens so you end up drinking in the pub and listening to everyone else finish the fun quest.
    Zyinniah Hazelnut and Curissa Hazelnut on most servers.

  4. #1664
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    I am still trying to convince some (cough...Cogs...cough) that NOT disarming traps on Normal is the more fun option. Once spotted and searched, a trap on Normal is a great party challenge and can be lots of fun.

    On the other hand, the "stand still for several minutes while the rogue single-handedly does the auto spot-search-disarm-rinse-repeat" approach to traps is a real buzz kill.

    There is a tendency for people to think that a rogue that can't auto-disarm is a useless rogue. That is DDO thinking at its very worst.

    I propose a new THAC0 rule for consideration: no ranks may be put into the Disarm skill (i.e. Disarm does not exist).
    So in other words, if you like a melee character that is squishy play a rogue. If you like a melee character that has good defence, play a fighter. If you like a trap smith, don't play one in THACO because they are buzz kills? Also - it does not take several minutes to spot (no action required), search (3-4 seconds) and disarm (haven't timed it but likely less than 10 seconds). I thought you were all against getting quests done in anything under an hour lest it be labled a zerg-fest?

  5. #1665
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazelnut View Post
    Missing out on the journey totally sucks when you are on a really fun quest and an "oops" happens so you end up drinking in the pub and listening to everyone else finish the fun quest.
    You know that's not the case. You go "hunting" in the Wilderness of your choice.
    Oops or not, it's the consequence of dying.

  6. #1666
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    So in other words, if you like a melee character that is squishy play a rogue. If you like a melee character that has good defence, play a fighter. If you like a trap smith, don't play one in THACO because they are buzz kills? Also - it does not take several minutes to spot (no action required), search (3-4 seconds) and disarm (haven't timed it but likely less than 10 seconds). I thought you were all against getting quests done in anything under an hour lest it be labled a zerg-fest?
    Slow down guys. Kierik has a unique view of Traps and would like to role-play them differently.
    Kierik....a Rougue LIKES to disarm bcause it's a core function. Plus he gets parts to construct some things.
    You may think disarm kills the fun, but it IS the fun to a Rogue.

    Fact: FOMO rears its head here too as it is REALLY easy to achieve 95% success rate in Disarm even when Magic Items are restricted.
    Skills, Feats and Enhancements still provide the Rogue that is playing on Normal WAY too much ability in Trapping. (TURBINE.....I hope you're listening.)
    This remains an area we haven't beaten yet, but will disappear in a few more levels.

  7. #1667
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Kierik....a Rougue LIKES to disarm bcause it's a core function. Plus he gets parts to construct some things.
    You may think disarm kills the fun, but it IS the fun to a Rogue.
    Okay pretend that's what I said. My sarcasm comes out uncontrolled at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    FOMO
    FOMO?

  8. #1668
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Slow down guys. Kierik has a unique view of Traps and would like to role-play them differently.
    Kierik....a Rougue LIKES to disarm bcause it's a core function. Plus he gets parts to construct some things.
    You may think disarm kills the fun, but it IS the fun to a Rogue.

    Fact: FOMO rears its head here too as it is REALLY easy to achieve 95% success rate in Disarm even when Magic Items are restricted.
    Skills, Feats and Enhancements still provide the Rogue that is playing on Normal WAY too much ability in Trapping. (TURBINE.....I hope you're listening.)
    This remains an area we haven't beaten yet, but will disappear in a few more levels.
    How is it fun when you have, at most, a 5% chance of failure and a 0% chance of the box blowing up? Now, if a rogue ACTUALLY had a decent chance of a disarm failure, and especially a box blowing up, then that would add to the game.

    Tukcc, despite the changes you've made to trapping (i.e. no magic tools, enhancement restrictions???), how many trap boxes has Cogs failed to disarm? How many have blown up in his face?

    Exactly what value, other than XP, are these things providing? As it stands now, trap disarming on Normal adds NOTHING to the game. Its relevant only to zergers looking to maximize XP/hour.

    ----------

    EDIT: to reiterate, I'm fine with the following:

    1) a rogue that tries to disarm traps with a significant chance of box explosion.
    2) the team overcoming traps without disarm.
    3) skipping a trap whenever possible.

    But this idea of auto-disarming all traps with zero danger on Normal is truly sad.

    Why is it that THAC0 goes to such lengths to make "monster challenges" actually challenging, but does nothing about other kinds of challenges? Granted, the magic limitations are preventing people from making "environment challenges" irrelevant. And we're good about disallowing metagaming for "riddle challenges". But we've done nothing to improve "trap challenges".


    (Note: none of my comments are intended to be relevant to trap disarming on Elite.)
    Last edited by Magiker; 10-30-2013 at 01:50 PM.

  9. #1669
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Okay pretend that's what I said. My sarcasm comes out uncontrolled at times.
    No worries, I've got that filter firmly in place.
    Here is a skill/tip that I adopted within the past year. Don't read and reply-to emails in the same sitting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    FOMO?
    Fear of Missing Out

    I need to open that chest cause it might have [x].
    I need to do that optional...
    I need that PrC enhancement...
    I need that uber trap gear so I get every trap...
    Etc.

  10. #1670
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    I am still trying to convince some (cough...Cogs...cough) that NOT disarming traps on Normal is the more fun option. Once spotted and searched, a trap on Normal is a great party challenge and can be lots of fun.
    I think it's just a difference of opinion on "fun". If you have been trying, unsuccessfully, to convince some (cough *people who like to play rogues* cough) of this and not yet succeeded, I think it's because of those different opinions.

    (Note - my *cough* is meant in fun not sarcasm).

    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    On the other hand, the "stand still for several minutes while the rogue single-handedly does the auto spot-search-disarm-rinse-repeat" approach to traps is a real buzz kill.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    As it stands now, trap disarming on Normal adds NOTHING to the game. Its relevant only to zergers looking to maximize XP/hour.
    Those two statements appear contradictory to me. The xp bonus for traps is generally skipped by zergers because it tends to (in most cases) decrease the xp/minute.

  11. #1671
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Fear of Missing Out

    I need to open that chest cause it might have [x].
    I need to do that optional...
    I need that PrC enhancement...
    I need that uber trap gear so I get every trap...
    Etc.
    Ahh got it, thanks.

  12. #1672
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    I think it's just a difference of opinion on "fun". If you have been trying, unsuccessfully, to convince some (cough *people who like to play rogues* cough) of this and not yet succeeded, I think it's because of those different opinions.
    I think its because they're just not understanding my point. There is a world of difference between traps on Elite and traps on Normal. Most people have an "Elite trap" mindset, which is great for Elite missions. But most people are sadly ingrained in that "Elite trap" mindset, and they take it to Normal games.

    On normal, there is no "disarm trap" fun to be had without severe restrictions that THAC0 has not adopted in any way, shape, or form. So my point is to adopt them, or to stop disarming altogether *on Normal*.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Those two statements appear contradictory to me. The xp bonus for traps is generally skipped by zergers because it tends to (in most cases) decrease the xp/minute.
    Not all zergers are good zergers.
    Just last Sunday I heard a comment about going *back* to disarm traps that we had passed, just to get the extra XP. Old habits die hard.

  13. #1673
    Community Member Varhann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    I think its because they're just not understanding my point. There is a world of difference between traps on Elite and traps on Normal. Most people have an "Elite trap" mindset, which is great for Elite missions. But most people are sadly ingrained in that "Elite trap" mindset, and they take it to Normal games.

    On normal, there is no "disarm trap" fun to be had without severe restrictions that THAC0 has not adopted in any way, shape, or form. So my point is to adopt them, or to stop disarming altogether *on Normal*.
    .
    The only issue I would have with not disarming is that every player has different skill levels with their key board and not everyone is capable of avoiding them. So that leaves the option of walking through them, which in turn severely depletes the clerics who are already doing their best with very low Sp pools.

    That is neither fun nor necessary when you could simply take 30 seconds to disarm the trap.

    Or, Magiker, you could simply choose to avoid the trap yourself first and let the rogue disarm for everyone else. Would that work?

  14. #1674
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    The only issue I would have with not disarming is that every player has different skill levels with their key board and not everyone is capable of avoiding them. So that leaves the option of walking through them, which in turn severely depletes the clerics who are already doing their best with very low Sp pools.
    Clerics have Echoes of Power, so fairness in regards to spell points is not an issue. Calibhan regularly is on Echoes of Power within 10 minutes of quest start, and encounters no difficulties with low SP. Dare I say that the above comment is...FOMO?

    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    That is neither fun nor necessary when you could simply take 30 seconds to disarm the trap.
    This statement does not reflect a "Journey" mentality. Its an "easy button / get to the end" mentality. Just like using high Int to find the path instead of working together to find it (as per the other thread, but note I have no idea what adventure this is...)

    "Work together as a team to overcome a trap" VS. "Stand around for 30 seconds while the rogue auto-disarms it with no danger" - if you don't see a disparity in these two situations...then I doubt you'll ever see my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    Or, Magiker, you could simply choose to avoid the trap yourself first and let the rogue disarm for everyone else. Would that work?
    No, it would not be OK because I only play DDO for the team aspect.
    Last edited by Magiker; 10-30-2013 at 05:51 PM.

  15. #1675
    Community Member Varhann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Clerics have Echoes of Power, so fairness in regards to spell points is not an issue. Calibhan regularly is on Echoes of Power within 10 minutes of quest start, and encounters no difficulties with low SP. Dare I say that the above comment is...FOMO?



    This statement does not reflect a "Journey" mentality. Its an "easy button / get to the end" mentality. Just like using high Int to find the path instead of working together to find it (as per the other thread, but note I have no idea what adventure this is...)

    "Work together as a team to overcome a trap" VS. "Stand around for 30 seconds while the rogue auto-disarms it with no danger" - if you don't see a disparity in these two situations...then I doubt you'll ever see my point.



    No, it would not be OK because I only play DDO for the team aspect.
    Echoes is a crutch. If you rely on it, that's your choice. I'd rather use my SP wisely and not constantly "heal stupid" which is anathema to team play and exactly the type of play you are reinforcing.

    I can't believe your are actually saying that you are MISTER TEAM PLAYER, yet you are politicking to tell others how to play their rogues. Granted, traps are a very small portion of what they do, but that is like one of us telling you you can't cast damaging spells anymore.

    It's BS. I would like you to explain to me exactly how you can work as a team to overcome a trap. Please site "in quest" examples..

    You point is wasted. Traps are a part of the game. There is a mechanic that is used to avoid them that some players have and some don't. On Normal they are still painful in some way and having someone remove them is an asset to team play. There are plenty of quests where the rogue has to put himself in harms way to remove them. There is a danger, just not on all traps.

    BTW, the journey starts to suck when you have to take it over and over and over and over and over. First time its fun, second time a bit less, third time even less so, anything after that is just suck. I nudged my teammates in the right direction to add to their enjoyment, not to screw them. I then apologized for it. You then have the nerve to tell me I'm not a team player? Get off your High Horse

  16. #1676
    Community Member Varhann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Clerics have Echoes of Power, so fairness in regards to spell points is not an issue. Calibhan regularly is on Echoes of Power within 10 minutes of quest start, and encounters no difficulties with low SP. Dare I say that the above comment is...FOMO?



    This statement does not reflect a "Journey" mentality. Its an "easy button / get to the end" mentality. Just like using high Int to find the path instead of working together to find it (as per the other thread, but note I have no idea what adventure this is...)

    "Work together as a team to overcome a trap" VS. "Stand around for 30 seconds while the rogue auto-disarms it with no danger" - if you don't see a disparity in these two situations...then I doubt you'll ever see my point.



    No, it would not be OK because I only play DDO for the team aspect.
    FOMO is not the issue. There is nothing left for me to MISS in this game.

    Successfully completing a quest is just as important as the journey. If you can't see that, I can't explain it.

    The more I think about it, the more I'm realizing that THACO probably is not for me. I'm apparently too much a Meta Gamer just from having played DDO for too damn long.

  17. #1677
    Community Member Fricko's Avatar
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    Default Playing a Mechanic Rogue.....

    Cogoiler, and several other of my Rogues are pure Mechanics, one at level 19, another at 24. I do not play Assassin because I prefer the Scouting, Sneak/Hide, and Spot/Search/Disable, which enables the making my own traps from parts salvaged. The Mechanic function is to clear the way for fellow party members. That used to be Cog's job, the slot he filled. More and more, it seems that the very reason for his existence is being carved away, because what I enjoy apparently gets in the way of what others enjoy. What I am hearing is that a Mechanic Rogue really is not necessary on Normal.

    Cogs does traps for you. You do not want traps done for you. Currently, without trapping duties, Cogs is a Great Crossbow Fighter, but without the benefit of heavy armor or HP.

    Do you really thjink it is fun to have a blown trap kill you, and have your very limited and rare magic equipment redlined with permanent damage? Remember when that is exactly what happened to Cogs on a fairly regular basis? I do. Fun and funny for you maybe. Not so much for me and Cogs.

    If you really want to run quests on normal without a Rogue, Cogs can be retired, and another character created quite easily.

    -Sam

  18. #1678
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    I think my first impression was correct. Everyone has fun in different ways.

    Trying to "force" your version of fun on everyone else is NOT team play. Tolerance is a part of team work.

    STORM v1 seemed very good at "tolerating" each others version of fun. Jedial liked doing what paladins do - get in the thick and start swinging away. Narcene searching and disabling traps and bluffing the enemy. We even had some great comic relief with grease clickies at (in)opportune times. Each to his own.

    I didn't necessarily like everyone else's way of doing things, but I did enjoy the way we worked together and let each be their own kind of character, whether it was subpar multiclassing or being "new" at a particular role and learning the ropes (Percy the Cleric just got better and better and is a blast to party with). I even found out after the group retired that my style was too fast and made our Vinnie, rogue/pally, feel rushed - yet he never told me in game (or in the forums) that I should change my style. I call that healthy tolerance.

    Making a suggestion is one thing. If others disagree, move on.
    Last edited by Fedora1; 10-31-2013 at 06:36 AM.

  19. #1679
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varhann View Post
    The more I think about it, the more I'm realizing that THACO probably is not for me. I'm apparently too much a Meta Gamer just from having played DDO for too damn long.
    Its possible that this is true. Ultimately, its up to you to decide how much you want to change your DDO mentality for the THAC0 group, if at all. Others have tried the THAC0 play style and eventually realized it wasn't for them...and parted ways gracefully and in friendship. (and are welcome back anytime they wish)

    I am not suggesting that there is something wrong with a DDO mentality per se. In fact, you probably need it to even play the game on Elite beyond low levels. THAC0 plays on Normal and is creating a specific mindset for that level. STORM is trying to create a different mindset for Elite/Hard - probably Hard in the long run. Thinking of it along these lines may help you to adjust if you wish to do so for either group.

  20. #1680
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    I think my first impression was correct. Everyone has fun in different ways.

    Trying to "force" your version of fun on everyone else is NOT team play. Tolerance is a part of team work.

    STORM v1 seemed very good at "tolerating" each others version of fun. Jedial liked doing what paladins do - get in the thick and start swinging away. Narcene searching and disabling traps and bluffing the enemy. We even had some great comic relief with grease clickies at (in)opportune times. Each to his own.

    I didn't necessarily like everyone else's way of doing things, but I did enjoy the way we worked together and let each be their own kind of character, whether it was subpar multiclassing or being "new" at a particular role and learning the ropes (Percy the Cleric just got better and better and is a blast to party with). I even found out after the group retired that my style was too fast and made our Vinnie, rogue/pally, feel rushed - yet he never told me in game (or in the forums) that I should change my style. I call that healthy tolerance.

    Making a suggestion is one thing. If others disagree, move on.
    On the one hand, I agree. On the other hand, is it too much for a group (that the player asked to join) to ask the player to adopt a play style? Does a player join a permadeath guild and then get mad when the guildies tell him how to approach a certain dungeon to avoid death? You wouldn't try to bring the THAC0 mindset to a PUG playing on Elite, would you? So why try to bring a "DDO Elite" mindset to THAC0 on Normal?

    If you just want to do what you want to do, there are plenty of large generic Guilds and PUGs for that. One thing that THAC0 is not, and that STORM is not, is a vanilla DDO static group.
    Last edited by Magiker; 10-31-2013 at 08:00 AM.

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