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  1. #1221
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    With more than a little hesitation, the Wednesday Group has agreed to try out a set of guidelines that (IMO) most closely replicates a classic D&D environment.

    No Shrines.
    Characters can not equip more than 10% of their Max Weight allowed figure as listed in their character sheet.
    No Magical Items may be purchased from any Vendor. This includes Healing Potions.
    The "Tasty Hams" that we have been using for self-healing will now be limited to 2 per adventure. (Change from last nights dicussion)
    Anything found in "breakables" belongs to the finder.
    Upon finding a chest, everyone rolls a d10 in party chat and only the first 2 results are considered.
    If NEITHER of the first two d10 rolls is a "1", the chest is abandoned and not even opened.
    The ML limit previously used is no longer in effect.
    There are no "Admin Items".

    Characters will now only retain what can be found in Quests, with ONE exception.....
    Normal Arms and Armor can be purchased from the "Hammer and Chain".
    Material Components are allowed to be purchased.
    Yes, wands can no longer be purchased.

    In order to make this work, Quests are now run "At Level" on Normal Difficulty.

    As always, as situations require, we can adapt.
    I KNOW there are those who, thru experience, know that higher quests will not allow this level of "nothing".
    We'll just have to see.

  2. #1222
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    With more than a little hesitation, the Wednesday Group has agreed to try out a set of guidelines that (IMO) most closely replicates a classic D&D environment.

    No Shrines.
    Characters can not equip more than 10% of their Max Weight allowed figure as listed in their character sheet.
    No Magical Items may be purchased from any Vendor. This includes Healing Potions.
    The "Tasty Hams" that we have been using for self-healing will now be limited to 2 per adventure. (Change from last nights dicussion)
    Anything found in "breakables" belongs to the finder.
    Upon finding a chest, everyone rolls a d10 in party chat and only the first 2 results are considered.
    If NEITHER of the first two d10 rolls is a "1", the chest is abandoned and not even opened.
    The ML limit previously used is no longer in effect.
    There are no "Admin Items".

    Characters will now only retain what can be found in Quests, with ONE exception.....
    Normal Arms and Armor can be purchased from the "Hammer and Chain".
    Material Components are allowed to be purchased.
    Yes, wands can no longer be purchased.

    In order to make this work, Quests are now run "At Level" on Normal Difficulty.

    As always, as situations require, we can adapt.
    I KNOW there are those who, thru experience, know that higher quests will not allow this level of "nothing".
    We'll just have to see.
    On normal difficulty you will be fine.

  3. #1223
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Anything found in "breakables" belongs to the finder.
    Does anyone else wonder if this may lead to a "race" to breakables and grab whatever falls? Will this cause problems with tactics that involve moving slowly and carefully? Will some be tempted to run and break stuff while others are engaged in battle?

    I think (for STORM) loyalty and team play would of course limit this kind of behavior - BUT we are allowed to loot all chests. When chests end up being 1 in 5 of what they are now, will that make a difference?

  4. #1224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Does anyone else wonder if this may lead to a "race" to breakables and grab whatever falls? Will this cause problems with tactics that involve moving slowly and carefully? Will some be tempted to run and break stuff while others are engaged in battle?
    Yes, that MIGHT happen. If it does, it will shift the focus. We'll have to watch that.
    I'd love to see, in addition to the "laugh" emote, one that causes the character to fall to the floor in a fit of uncontrollable laughter!
    Not THAT would open up all KINDS of "comic relief"!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    I think (for STORM) loyalty and team play would of course limit this kind of behavior - BUT we are allowed to loot all chests. When chests end up being 1 in 5 of what they are now, will that make a difference?
    This will replicate the (DDO term, sorry) DROP RATE in a classic adventure.
    Granted, you can't be guarenteed something you can USE, but whatever it is, it will be valued more than getting something every time you turn around.

    In Normal Difficulty, the character's abilities will be more valuable that items.

  5. #1225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Does anyone else wonder if this may lead to a "race" to breakables and grab whatever falls? Will this cause problems with tactics that involve moving slowly and carefully? Will some be tempted to run and break stuff while others are engaged in battle?

    I think (for STORM) loyalty and team play would of course limit this kind of behavior - BUT we are allowed to loot all chests. When chests end up being 1 in 5 of what they are now, will that make a difference?

    One of the main things I dislike about the 'roll for a chest mechanic' is that I have never, ever, ever finished a D&D module without getting some kind of treasure or loot or reward at the end. If we completed a quest and there was zilch at the end, I feel Cadrod would be compelled to roofie Jed or Percy at the next tavern break and take one of their items just so he had a shiny to show for all of his hard work.


    I think if Storm were to ever consider this mechanic would have to be 1 guaranteed chest per quest (usually the end chest) and all others would be rolled on (or just ignored), or every chest would be rolled on but we would always be able to accept the end reward.


    I'm curious how Leadhero, Zefjoe, and Cogs feel about the rolling for chests in their other THACO groups? Is it everything you hoped it would be? Is it something you'd want to see Storm doing instead of the 2.5 multiplier? Does it need tweaking?

  6. #1226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I'm curious how Leadhero, Zefjoe, and Cogs feel about the rolling for chests in their other THACO groups? Is it everything you hoped it would be? Is it something you'd want to see Storm doing instead of the 2.5 multiplier? Does it need tweaking?
    Maybe the issue is misleading. We have agreed to try this out with the understanding that, if it proves to be disappointing, it would be abandoned.
    Kierik was absent on the night we agreed, so with that absense alone, it could only be a trial.

    STORM plays at Elite difficulty and therefore NEEDS the magic items. It is comendable that you've elected to work with SOME measure of effort to get away from the DDO "Monty Haul".
    I know you're here for the quality of the players and not the Classic 2nd Edition experience.

    The concept I'm concentrating on focuses on being able to play this computer version of Dungeons and Dragons in a way that was done way back when.
    I am sure DDO was developed using old skool concepts in the modules and has made higher difficulties in order to draw players with gobs of money to spend.

  7. #1227
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Maybe the issue is misleading. We have agreed to try this out with the understanding that, if it proves to be disappointing, it would be abandoned.
    Kierik was absent on the night we agreed, so with that absense alone, it could only be a trial.

    STORM plays at Elite difficulty and therefore NEEDS the magic items. It is comendable that you've elected to work with SOME measure of effort to get away from the DDO "Monty Haul".
    I know you're here for the quality of the players and not the Classic 2nd Edition experience.

    The concept I'm concentrating on focuses on being able to play this computer version of Dungeons and Dragons in a way that was done way back when.
    I am sure DDO was developed using old skool concepts in the modules and has made higher difficulties in order to draw players with gobs of money to spend.

    It sounds interesting, and I was wondering if any of the players from the other nights like this enough to want to implement it on Sunday also (or discuss the possibility of implementing it). I think we could discuss using an adaptation of it if everyone enjoys the way it works now that you've been at it a few weeks.

  8. #1228
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    I'm open to whatever Intruder wants to try. This is his experiment after all, trying to replicate a certain play style that he envisions. However I feel that in the future, when we reach a certain level of quests where the monster hit points begin to be double that of our own, when we encounter monsters that have heavy DR spec's or resistances etc. we will find that no matter what our abilities, we will lack the necessary "umphf" to take them down without several of us dinging. His uncapping the ML for items that we claim either in chests rolled on a 1 or in breakables, will I think, not be sufficient. We shall see. I think the idea of a ML cap is part of the solution. I also think that the roll for treasure could be tweaked.

    For every ones consideration. I don't mean to be a spoiler - just throwing ideas around.

    Minimum Level (ML) is one way Magic item availability will be restricted to AD&D levels. All items have a ML. If an items does not have a specified ML it will have an assumed ML of 1. A character can only have in their possession items whose COMBINED ML is equal to 1.5 times their level, rounded down (or level+2). [Level 5 character = 7.5 = 7 ML]. This seems to allow enough magic to help the character out in areas he feels deficient in without making the character in any way overpowered.

    The other way Magic item availability will be restricted will be by limiting treasure.

    End rewards
    - What is available now is Underpowered for current DDO (most of the end reward items haven't been "changed" since the quest first was introduced, they are now - for the most part - not that exceptional), but they ARE exceptional items for old school D&D.
    - Named items only allowed, and contribute to ML and weight limit. The reason is - these will be the foundation of a characters "kit". If this seems to be too much - perhaps each player can roll 1d10 to determine if they have been gifted by the quest giver, if not - Tales of Valor only.

    Breakables
    - Often containing potions, money, gems and rarely Magic items. Represents stashes found.
    - All allowed, and contribute to ML, weight and Potion limit. Magic items in breakables are rare enough to not load up a character with too much over the coarse of quests. Plus not all items will be usable or desired and can be traded to another member in the quest. NOT saved for another alt.

    Treasure Chests - suggestions ripped from Magicker and altered.
    1. The treasure chest is guarded by a trap (i.e. represents a "hoard"). Hoards are often places to find Magic items.
    - Roll 1d5, a 1 means magic item "present", 20% chance
    2. The treasure chest is guarded by a monster (i.e. represents monster's "gear"). Many important Monsters have Magic items.
    - Roll 1d10, a 1 means magic item "present", 10% chance
    3. The treasure chest is not guarded (i.e. represents random loot). Any chest left unguarded will probably not contain any Magic items.
    - Roll 1d20, a 1 means magic item "present", 5% chance

    If this seems that it provides too many magic items perhaps TWO rolls - a 1d5 roll with a 1 means that there is actually anything in the chest at all and its not just empty and then a roll for magic items.

    These suggestions come about mainly due to observing the "drop rate" with the Low Magic group and the number and type of items that these characters have. I think that once we go over level 10-12 we are going to find we are severely handicapped and will have to adjust anyway.

  9. #1229
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    Very thought out. Good reasoning behind every idea.

    a problem I noticed since we started is actually (should be) very obvious.
    It's easy to make guidelines easier, not so much making them harder.

    When STORM started up, it was quickly suggested to raise the Magic Limit. Granted, it was because they were going to do Elite Difficulty, still, there was no objection at all.

    When the Monday group started, it was with an increased restriction. 100% of the players were from the ML1.5 group and none were too sure, nor were comfortable.

    Last Wednesday we agreed to disallow BYOH and boy, what a different attitude compared to the reaction when it was brought in!

    Bottom line, making things more restricting doesn't sit well with anyone.

    We are now working in Normal Difficulty and I can't see going back to Hard.
    If the guidelines are too restrictive, maybe they will be inadequate later on.
    If they are too lax, the party will become over-powered.

    How will you resolve each result?
    Require another "pick 4 items you have and get rid of everything else"?
    or merely change the "drop rate" to a higher value?

    Making changes to the guidelines we use is what we're all about.
    Just make sure to account for the ramifications.

  10. #1230
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    Found something on the WotC web site that brought back old memories.
    A AD&D Module
    WG4 "THE FORGOTTEN TEMPLE OF THARIZDUN"
    by Gary Gygax
    AN ADVENTURE FOR CHARACTER LEVELS 5-10

    While the details the characters, monsters and Treasure aren't applicable to DDO, they WERE
    comparable in a relative sense.

    If you take the record sheets of (4) 2nd Ed characters and change them to DDO, you can apply the conversion
    to the Monsters and (most of all) treasure to see what the typical AD&D treasure would be in DDO terms.

    Without getting really technical, let's just say most things in DDO like Hit Points, are 2-3 times AD&D "norms".

    Remembering this module is for Levels 5-10, the Magic Items Aquired in this module was something like this......
    about 3-4 weapons.....+1 and +2
    maybe 5-6 pieces of low level Armor
    1 or 2 Magic Wands (none were direct damage)
    a few Rings
    quite a few misc magic items that do not have DDO equivilents.

    A LOT of Coin and Gems

    There were maybe a couple dozen or so encounters with probably around 75 - 100 individual monsters!
    About half of the explored areas had no treasure at all. (Consider chests and breakables to be "areas" )
    This particular Module would probably take 2 or 3 game nights.

    It was good to spend a couple hours remembering the past.

  11. #1231
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    Pick 4 things and get rid of everything else.
    I'm not sure what this means.

    Characters can not equip more than 10% of their Max Weight allowed figure as listed in their character sheet.
    I exercise my veto power. STR is already an overpowered stat, and now this provides more benefit. Such a rule should have been implemented before character creation. This will potentially unbalance the group.

    The ML limit previously used is no longer in effect.
    I exercise my veto power. One of the things the ML restriction does is to maintain balance amongst the party, because DDO does not equally drop class-appropriate loot.

    Upon finding a chest, everyone rolls a d10 in party chat and only the first 2 results are considered. If NEITHER of the first two d10 rolls is a "1", the chest is abandoned and not even opened.
    I exercise my veto power. This is a non-immersive option and I feel detracts from the gameplay. It would be better to allow breakables and end loot, but to just ignore every single chest (obviously we would open chests that have quest items).


    P.S. I don't suppose there was any discussion last Wed about death consequences?
    Last edited by Magiker; 05-31-2013 at 11:56 AM.

  12. #1232
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    Default Rules heavy and getting more complex

    Addressing the STORM group only (since many have toons in both THAC0 and STORM):

    Those of us in STORM that also follow this thread please let me drop a couple comments:

    1. We are using the 2.5ML magic rule (with wands and no ML items counting as 1 each) and attempt quests at level on elite.

    2. We have not changed the ruling on BYOH mainly because it has been a non-issue with a cleric, bard, half-cleric/ranger, and paladin in the party. If anyone wants this addressed let's do so Sunday night or in the STORM thread.

    3. No purchases from AH or pawn shops. Normal shops are okay, as are spell components.

    4. We have not adopted any other rules (chests/death penalty) that are being discussed here. It is my opinion that we leave it alone for now as it seems to be a bit distracting, and it was never our intent to simulate 2nd edition rules but rather an attempt at avoiding monty haul DDO. Having "rolled" our stats and the ruling on multi-class (and race/class restrictions) were the only real step we took toward 2nd edition simulation.

    5. We verbally agreed to ignore the "exit quest the way you came in" rule, at least at quest completion. The "recall" button is allowed. We should probably (and this is just a suggestion) keep the "run out" rule in the case of non-completion, like when 2-3 party members die and we decide to abandon the quest.

    Just want to help avoid confusion, as last week when we got to a chest and opened it someone said "Oh weren't we supposed to roll for that?".

  13. #1233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    Just want to help avoid confusion, as last week when we got to a chest and opened it someone said "Oh weren't we supposed to roll for that?".
    Agreed. STORM was never included in any suggestions like that.

    With 1 "nay" vote for the Wednesday Night group suggestion, no changes can be made to their guidelines.
    ML1.5, Vendor Wands, Hams and 25 Healing Potions, No dice roll for Chests is still in effect.
    And since there is no concensus about a death penalty, dead characters stay with the group.

    Monday night group continues with the guidelines of no ML restriction, Dice Roll for chests, Valor only End rewards, No vendor items except normal, and No Hams.

    It was not my intent to confuse. Players have (3) playstyles to choose from. This is probably best.

  14. #1234
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    It was not my intent to confuse. Players have (3) playstyles to choose from. This is probably best.
    Of course it wasn't.

    It's understandable that some confusion would arise due to the close relationship of the groups play styles, players participating in two or even all three groups, and the discussions taking place in two threads.

  15. #1235
    Community Member LeadHeros's Avatar
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    Default FYOH (Find Your Own Healing)...

    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Last Wednesday we agreed to disallow BYOH and boy, what a different attitude compared to the reaction when it was brought in!
    Either the 2 hams rule was not mentioned while I was on or I missed it. I did watch what my lvl 10 char got the last couple of quests; no healing at all. Didn't see anyone else get any but might have missed it.

    The crowd control approach didn't really work on our last quests due to lack of humanoids and undead. I'll keep those spells and see how it goes.

    Did a quick comparison of hp/sp damage and Mag Missle looks like it does the most; with scorching ray close behind. The summoned lantern searing lignt hits at 19 per attack but the description says 'useless once SP is gone". I never noticed it stop casting even when agro'ed at a door with something behind it. Will check that out and report back. The earth elle is pretty tough but hard to calculate how much damage it does per attack. The skeleton is the best.

    I agree that THACO, Storm and Monday should have different rules. I don't need my ego crushed twice a week. (I'm not in Monday).

    This ruleset really makes you look at what your character does in a completely new light. Not just add up all the stacking benefits you can get.

    (Test edit for intruder1)
    Last edited by LeadHeros; 06-02-2013 at 09:36 AM.
    No Char left behind; original join date, Oct 2010

  16. #1236
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    Gentlemen,
    Every day I am grateful to have happened to run in with a quality group of people.
    It makes adventuring month after month, really rewarding.

    If this game ever adds the ability to create our own Quests, it would complete the job of making a virtual D&D world.
    Every quest would be new.



    [QUOTE=someone]This isnt really a rant but more of a sad day when you see a veteran player yell at people in tempest spine hey what you dont know it and laughing at the new players. this attitude displayed by this tr sickened me. Im a tr as well and players like this really give us a bad name. I don't care if you have been playing for 7 years or not. Why is it when one of these jerks join another person's group they assume its a zerg fest and everyone knows the map/quest. This is exactly what this tr was doing. this was the 2nd time i grouped with him where one was my run and the other was someone elses.

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by someone
    Happened to me too. Last time I put up an LFM for TS (1 1/2 year ago or so) I had it posted for HH at level and clearly said not a zerg run in the LFM.

    Went to enter the quest and some plick went in on HE then proceeded to zerg ahead.

    I got so disgusted by the vet taking over what was my LFM when I had several players new to the raid I just recalled and dropped group, sent tells to those that were there to learn the raid saying "recall and drop".

    I had 7 players in a new group in about 2 minutes. Filled out from our friends list and went in and had some good laughs, especially when I heard that the one that entered on HE and zerged ahead died in the caves before most of the others got to the entrance and then was biching and whining because nobody could find him to get his stone.

  17. #1237
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    Impossible to edit your own posts!
    This forum sucks.

  18. #1238
    Community Member LeadHeros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeadHeros View Post
    (Test edit for intruder1)
    Seems to work for me but I have found 3 things about DDO that seem specific to me. Since the U18, when I start the gamma is set waaaay down and makes the image almost black; I adjust it up, close and next time I login, dark again. Even with it adjusted so I can see, any screenshots are uselessly dark. And the most annoying thing, through multiple installs on multiple pcs, my F1 to F6 keys to pick party members will not keep. EVERY TIME I LOGIN, I HAVE TO RESET THEM; my other account is fine.

    You meet all kinds in interweb world; some are too self-centered to tell the difference between a single player game and a MMO. Hopefully they are not quite so rude in the game 'REAL LIFE' but from what I see on a day to day basis, probably not. Oh the other hand, the number of excellent pugs does outnumber the bad ones by a good margin; take notes and move on.

    "Hey where'd everyone go? Why doesn't anyone ever hjeals me or get my stone?"

    My guildmaster, intruder1 asked me to post theses pics, frankly I think Sean nailed the look!



    Last edited by LeadHeros; 06-02-2013 at 11:23 AM.
    No Char left behind; original join date, Oct 2010

  19. #1239
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Impossible to edit your own posts!
    This forum sucks.
    Not having any problems with that myself. But a couple of posters seem to have some issues with their edit post buttons.

  20. #1240
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeadHeros View Post

    My guildmaster, intruder1 asked me to post theses pics, frankly I think Sean nailed the look!




    That is hilarious.

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