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  1. #1121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I've played in enough perma-death guilds that use the honor system regarding all types of rules to know that is categorically untrue. There are entire guilds full of players, like THACO, who choose to play a certain way because it is fun for them and cheating would be defeating the purpose of the self-imposed rules.


    The 'potion quaffing' animation is also pretty noticeable. So even if someone's will power did falter, it would be obvious to the rest of the party.



    I'm not arguing FOR more potion use, quite the contrary as I rarely use either, I'm simply stating that as a long time player I see little difference between consuming item A for hit points or item B for hit points except that item A (hams) simulate a self-cast vigor spell and item B (pots) simulates a self-cast clw spell.

    I think it is great you are moving away from using them entirely except for what is found in quest.
    Well said.
    The comment about the potions was intended kinda "tongue-in-cheek".
    I reguarded the Hams as rations to be used while resting, but using otherwise is just taking advantage of a tool.
    They weren't supposed to be used in a fight either.

  2. #1122
    Community Member Fedora1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    As far as I understand it, hams are finite and potions are not. There is no ham vendor.
    I asked the question because Intruder commented that he wished the vendors would sell hams.

  3. #1123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    I asked the question because Intruder commented that he wished the vendors would sell hams.
    Yes, I did. I would like to see a "Ration" in DDO for us "Classic Players. You can buy them from the DDO store, but not vendors.
    My version would weigh 2-3 pounds instead of what they do now and heal over a longer period, but for the same amount of HP.
    It would be the Classic Version of a Shrine, but without Spell Power, representing a "Rest".
    Heck, even that could be added, but would restore at an even slower rate.

    Of course, this would be of no value to anyone but us, so it prob won't happen.

  4. #1124
    Community Member LeadHeros's Avatar
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    Default Fantasy dependent on science...

    Interwebz went away on the second disconnect and never came back. Still not connected this morning. Looks like a call to Verizon is in my future. Hope that you got through without me.
    No Char left behind; original join date, Oct 2010

  5. #1125
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    That's too bad. We waited for awhile and then moved on because the evening was getting late. There was a single fatality at the end, but it resulted from a bit of a crazy tactic and nothing could have prevented it.

  6. #1126
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    Default Death Penalty

    As it stands now, we have none. Even the loss of chests and end rewards is meaningless now.

    Here's an idea based on the new loot system. If you die, you sacrifice a single (highest minimum level) equipped magic item. [ducks the empty beer bottle thrown from Cog's general vicinity]

    If you have no equipped magic items...you have no death penalty.
    Last edited by Magiker; 05-16-2013 at 12:34 PM.

  7. #1127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    That's too bad. We waited for awhile and then moved on because the evening was getting late. There was a single fatality at the end, but it resulted from a bit of a crazy tactic and nothing could have prevented it.
    "Crazy"? I'd call it a brave sacrifice!
    If it weren't for my elven blood spattered on the ground in the "hole", you would never have had a shot at the BEHOLDER!

    Nice job everybody! (Grondley....you were sorely missed!)

    This group has embraced the 10% chance for having Equipable Magic Items in any chest.
    Also, only allowing Valor (or a non-equipable piece of magic) for an "End Reward".
    There were quite a few "Will Power Skill Checks" by our PLAYERS, and I'm glad to see they all made their "saves"!
    (I think out of the 9 some-odd chests we found last night, only ONE rolled a "1".)

    We are well on our way to playing by VERY Classic D&D "expectations". (IMO)
    I say expectations because they aren't "rules", just guidelines that simulate a Classic D&D world.
    Or as close to it as DDO will allow us.

  8. #1128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    As it stands now, we have none. Even the loss of chests and end rewards is meaningless now.

    Here's an idea based on the new loot system. If you die, you sacrifice a single (highest minimum level) equipped magic item. [ducks the empty beer bottle thrown from Cog's general vicinity]

    If you have no equipped magic items...you have no death penalty.
    Death Penalty is a very touchy subject.
    It will take a LOT of pondering and discussion to even suggest anything acceptable.

  9. #1129
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    I reguarded the Hams as rations to be used while resting, but using otherwise is just taking advantage of a tool.
    They weren't supposed to be used in a fight either.
    Gotcha. Makes sense to me.

  10. #1130
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Death Penalty is a very touchy subject.
    It will take a LOT of pondering and discussion to even suggest anything acceptable.

    Honestly, if there had been a real death penalty would you have jumped into the hole? Maybe you would have. But you get my point about not having one.

  11. #1131
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    If you want to actually penalize death, then quit messing about and institute some PD rules. It will make playing normal difficulty a lot more exciting than just reducing the number of magic items you use. That just makes the game less easy, rather than adding challenge.

    Your character dies and nobody can cast raise dead? Reroll. That is true 'classic DnD.' I sure don't remember any 'do overs' when I was playing low level characters a million years ago. Releasing and spirit binding is strictly a video game mechanic.

  12. #1132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    If you want to actually penalize death, then quit messing about and institute some PD rules. It will make playing normal difficulty a lot more exciting than just reducing the number of magic items you use. That just makes the game less easy, rather than adding challenge.

    Your character dies and nobody can cast raise dead? Reroll. That is true 'classic DnD.' I sure don't remember any 'do overs' when I was playing low level characters a million years ago. Releasing and spirit binding is strictly a video game mechanic.
    Yes, and then the pen and paper GM proceeded to roll you another appropriately leveled PC, and you re-joined the fun right away. Having to start a new PC at level 1 takes all the joy out of it, especially in a game like DDO where the number of low level dungeons is sadly small.

    If we can't sacrifice magic items as a death penalty, then we should consider returning to the old method that we started with - "you die, you release right away". No XP for you.

  13. #1133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    If you want to actually penalize death, then quit messing about and institute some PD rules. It will make playing normal difficulty a lot more exciting than just reducing the number of magic items you use. That just makes the game less easy, rather than adding challenge.

    Your character dies and nobody can cast raise dead? Reroll. That is true 'classic DnD.' I sure don't remember any 'do overs' when I was playing low level characters a million years ago. Releasing and spirit binding is strictly a video game mechanic.
    I agree with you, but even my PnP Campaigns weren't PD.
    It was just too much fun to allow a beloved character to die, so "divine intervention" played a part.

    When we first started, over a year ago, we discussed at length the PD question and we all agreed it would not be acceptable.
    Once you decide death is not the end, a penalty is all you have left.
    Trouble is, once you limit what it is you can gain from this playstyle, taking anything away is asking for trouble.

  14. #1134
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    When we first started, over a year ago, we discussed at length the PD question and we all agreed it would not be acceptable.
    Once you decide death is not the end, a penalty is all you have left.
    Trouble is, once you limit what it is you can gain from this playstyle, taking anything away is asking for trouble.
    I understand where you're coming from, so forget my suggestion about sacrificing magic items. But what do we have now? If you die now, nobody picks up your soulstone. You still get XP. Its not really a penalty.

  15. #1135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    I understand where you're coming from, so forget my suggestion about sacrificing magic items. But what do we have now? If you die now, nobody picks up your soulstone. You still get XP. Its not really a penalty.
    What we have is the player losing the ability to continue playing with the group.
    He must tolerate just listening to what transpires, with the knowledge the party suffers in their absence and may have a chance of failing because of it.
    That's prob the limit our players will stand for, which will have to do until something else comes along.

  16. #1136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    I understand where you're coming from, so forget my suggestion about sacrificing magic items. But what do we have now? If you die now, nobody picks up your soulstone. You still get XP. Its not really a penalty.
    As far as I can see, the options are:

    1) Die and you release back to the tavern. No XP for you and thus you fall behind unless you solo. As long as we all stay within a few levels of each other no real harm done. However, no one is going to want to hang around after a death. Plus soloing a quest at these levels is a bit more difficult with the low gear. And if some one dies two weeks in a row, are they going to be able to make that up? Good or bad? It's definitely a penalty.

    2) Die and you wait for everyone else to finish out. You keep up XP wise and keep magic. No real penalty, except not being able to play. Good enough "punishment"?

    3) Lose a magic item. With the minimum ML we have less magic stuff than before. Plus, shuffling items around to accommodate playing "minus item" doesn't really affect your ability to play. It's just irritating. Penalty enough?

    4) PD. Die and reroll. Thing is it's taken over a year to get to level 9. If we had implemented PD, none of us would be playing level 9 now. It's definitely a challenge, but is it counterproductive to the whole idea of playing for fun?

    The thing is, we have to ask - what are we playing for? To be challenged playing DDO in a more traditional D&D playstyle. To have fun while we do it. That's why I play.

    So far we have - for the most part - had fun playing. It's been the playing while challenged part that we've been chasing. So far it's been hit or miss. But... with new experience in playing with severe restrictions for magic items, I think we will find the challenge will be there. Plus the higher levels of quests are "right around the corner". Once we get into level 10+, with our limited gear, the "fear" of dying will be there.

    I know I don't wish to die in a quest. Do I take some chances with my characters sometimes? Sure, that is the general theme of them. They are all warriors, they leap into the fray and pit their skill and daring against that of the enemy. When one of them dies, I sit there and do nothing... and the team is less one warrior... punishment enough for me.

  17. #1137
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    When I don't hear Tukcc yelling at us to "slow down" or "stay together", that is when I'll know we've hit the right level. IMO, the current method is not a sufficient penalty.

    I'm thinking loss of XP combined with allowing PCs to level separately is worth a shot. We went away from "Release & loss of XP" mainly because it was unfair to Cogs being a trapper with restricted gear. Now that we're no longer dealing with Elite traps, I think we can/should try it again.

  18. #1138
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    Default Balance?

    I realize I am in the least restrictive group (STORM on Sundays) but wanted to chime in. Someone mentioned (or alluded to) the balance aspect. Where is the sweet spot? So far it's been a moving target. Lower level quests can be done on elite by a party with zero-to-minimal gear. This changes as the quest levels get higher. However, here are a few observations:

    The "control" group which began THAC0 a bit over a year ago had a few problems as far as my 20-20 hindsight can see. They had less healing inherent in the group, they were starting from scratch and learning as they went, they seemed also to suffer from some fun flavor muli-classing that didn't end up as useful as a pure class or as strong as a multiclass with classes that were better together. Example - a rogue/ranger is going to have more complimentary skills/stats/etc than a rogue/cleric. These are just a few of the challenges I saw, which is why I was hoping that by PLANNING a better PARTY from the start was one way to "learn from past observations". So STORM started with a good mix of melee/healing/trapping (when everyone was present) and our lack of an arcane has not been an issue (so far). Thus even when we had the "potential" magic restriction the quests SEEMED easier than what I read about when THAC0 was starting out.

    So when we were not being stupid (okay when Jedial was not being stupid) our only deaths really happened when our trapper was absent. So this made the quests look easy again. But it's not that the quests were easier or we had too many magic items, it's just that with a pure cleric, a half cleric, a bard, a ranger and a paladin we were able to easily recover after a tough battle and continue on. I don't think that was the case with THAC0's original adventures. You guys would lose 30% of your health after a battle and had to continue on wounded. Next battle same thing. Then make a mistake and it was game over. STORM can make a mistake and recover. Oh yeah, we also had hams from the pork barrels that THAC0 didn't have when they started out.

    So is the game unbalanced because we have too much magic? No, we just have a different party make up. This might not be the case later, around level 7-8 when arcanes come into their own. At that point we may have a problem with some of the tougher mobs that a caster could take out with an AOE elemental spell.

    So just a few observations on GAME BALANCE. It IS a moving target and WILL be different for each group/party.

  19. #1139
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    I'd like to understand more of the AI behind the enemy spellcasters. In storm, the kobold shamans plain out stopped throwing lightning bolts when they were engaged in melee (and well before they were dead). Sometimes they hopped back and got into ranged mode again, but not always. In THAC0, there were no melee types in the party so we stayed at range and got continuous lightning bolts from them.

    If this AI behavior change is consistent, it seems a party with solid melee types that can charge the enemy caster and change its behavior is a real advantage. Has anyone experimented with this?

  20. #1140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    I realize I am in the least restrictive group (STORM on Sundays) but wanted to chime in. Someone mentioned (or alluded to) the balance aspect. Where is the sweet spot? So far it's been a moving target. Lower level quests can be done on elite by a party with zero-to-minimal gear. This changes as the quest levels get higher. However, here are a few observations:

    The "control" group which began THAC0 a bit over a year ago had a few problems as far as my 20-20 hindsight can see. They had less healing inherent in the group, they were starting from scratch and learning as they went, they seemed also to suffer from some fun flavor muli-classing that didn't end up as useful as a pure class or as strong as a multiclass with classes that were better together. Example - a rogue/ranger is going to have more complimentary skills/stats/etc than a rogue/cleric. These are just a few of the challenges I saw, which is why I was hoping that by PLANNING a better PARTY from the start was one way to "learn from past observations". So STORM started with a good mix of melee/healing/trapping (when everyone was present) and our lack of an arcane has not been an issue (so far). Thus even when we had the "potential" magic restriction the quests SEEMED easier than what I read about when THAC0 was starting out.

    So when we were not being stupid (okay when Jedial was not being stupid) our only deaths really happened when our trapper was absent. So this made the quests look easy again. But it's not that the quests were easier or we had too many magic items, it's just that with a pure cleric, a half cleric, a bard, a ranger and a paladin we were able to easily recover after a tough battle and continue on. I don't think that was the case with THAC0's original adventures. You guys would lose 30% of your health after a battle and had to continue on wounded. Next battle same thing. Then make a mistake and it was game over. STORM can make a mistake and recover. Oh yeah, we also had hams from the pork barrels that THAC0 didn't have when they started out.

    So is the game unbalanced because we have too much magic? No, we just have a different party make up. This might not be the case later, around level 7-8 when arcanes come into their own. At that point we may have a problem with some of the tougher mobs that a caster could take out with an AOE elemental spell.

    So just a few observations on GAME BALANCE. It IS a moving target and WILL be different for each group/party.
    With both a wizard and sorcerer Original THACO actually has more magic than we do. Not as much healing, but more than enough firepower to crush everything on elite up through level 8 even without a pure cleric.

    Our biggest advantage is our experience and play style, thanks in part to half our group playing THACO rules for the past year.

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