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  1. #1101
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    Something to think about.

    After playing a few adventures with the "Ultra-Restrictive" playstyle, I begin to see how DDO, played at Normal Difficulty, with a VERY simple rule system, resembles Classic D&D very much.

    We have learned that at Hard and Elite, SOME measure of "gearing" is an absolute must.
    Normal is definetly enjoyable WITHOUT the Magic.

    And since this Group and Thread is dedicated to Adventuring with a very sparce amount of Magic, it is my suggestion to move in that direction.

  2. #1102
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    Will normal be a consistent challenge? I have my doubts. On the other hand, I do think we could handle adventures on hard with fewer magic items.

    Also, I worry about moving the basis of the magic restriction from "potential" to "minimum level". Take a look at the Blade of Inquisition, and you have a +5 potential item that has a minimum level of 2.

  3. #1103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Will normal be a consistent challenge? I have my doubts. On the other hand, I do think we could handle adventures on hard with fewer magic items.

    Also, I worry about moving the basis of the magic restriction from "potential" to "minimum level". Take a look at the Blade of Inquisition, and you have a +5 potential item that has a minimum level of 2.
    Yeah, I can see your point, but in the bigger picture, I think it would solve more issuees than cause them.
    I don't think anybody has followed the quest line on Normal. That's why we have a 3 person team doing it.

    My intention is to convince the Weds night group to use the ML system with a factor of 1.5.
    That will do 2 things, begin the ML conversion and begin the reduction of "Equipable" magic towards Normal Difficulty.
    Honestly, I don't expect ALL of them to agree.

    I have spoken intensly to the players about encumberence.
    The mechanics are already in the game and it would add a lot.
    If only Turbine would just change the maximum weight allowance number to 10% of it's current value!
    Just for Normal difficulty.

    The players that would not like a weight limitation don't play normal anyway.

  4. #1104
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    I think Normal difficulty with the Ultra-Restrictive Magic magic will be (for the most part) consistently challenging given certain caveats (just like with the Wed night group now). With no Arcanes and no Cleric, it will be most definatly challenging.

    With Arcane and/or Cleric we will see the Magic users dominate the higher levels that we go... however with the severe gear restriction it will be just the "Character sheet" for them and they will have to rely a lot on the melee to "mop up".

    Also higher level quests begin to "scale" in general relative to lower level quests. The old saying that past level 10-12 the game really kicks in. In gets substantially harder, even on Normal. The thing is most players by level 10-12 are running around with +3 tomes to the stats, at least +5 magic items in every slot, ship buffs etc. so they don't notice.

    Two things I've noticed so far playing the Mon group. 1) That sense of do or die, the "on the edge of your seat" playstyle, is there (more so than Wed or Sun night) and 2) Opening a chest is a BIG deal now especially when you roll a 1 [Rolling a 1 on a 1d10 roll means you get to keep the magic items, whatever their potential! Anything else means you leave them in the chest (just equippable items)]. At level 3 I just now got to put away my Masterwork Dwarven axe for a +2 Heavy Mace. Sweet!

    This Ultra-Restrictive style is not going to be for every one, even those that like to play less DDO style. But it certainly brings back that old PnP feel to the game. With some tweaking along the way to account for higher level challenge and a limited party, it really works.

  5. #1105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zefjoque View Post
    I think Normal difficulty with the Ultra-Restrictive Magic magic will be (for the most part) consistently challenging given certain caveats (just like with the Wed night group now). With no Arcanes and no Cleric, it will be most definatly challenging.

    With Arcane and/or Cleric we will see the Magic users dominate the higher levels that we go... however with the severe gear restriction it will be just the "Character sheet" for them and they will have to rely a lot on the melee to "mop up".
    Why not restrict the group to non-casters? Make it a Conan style of world?

  6. #1106
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    I wouldn't want to exclude anybody that would like to play a caster. Besides, I think that with this kind of gear restriction a caster is going to have to REALLY pick and chose how they will sling spells. It will be very tactical. [Keep in mind that a caster can only use wands or scrolls that they pull from a chest]. Imagine the Wed group with only 1/3 of what they have now in magic items!!

    Using minimum level vs. magic potential, I think balances out in the long run with this very gear restrictive style. Some items will give better advantages with a ML certainly. But considering that you will only have a 10% chance to pull a magic item on every chest that better ML will compensate for the lack of items in general. At level 3 with all of the Korthos quests and nearly a dozen quests in the Harbor we've only rolled a [1] 3 or 4 times now.

    Keep in mind the Mon. group is pure test. Just to see if rolling a d10 is effective and fun. If you think that THACO style is restrictive, well THAKE-I-TALL will leave you feeling like O.o

    I've finally figured it out. Intruder1 is Sado and Zefjoe is Masochistic.

  7. #1107
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    Guys....loose the "Cure light Wounds Potions" in the First Aid kit.
    BYOH needs to go I think.
    "Normal rations" are acceptable in any quantity. (For now)
    If anyone needs Rations, I can supply.

    No other rule changes for the time being.
    Remember.....the ONLY authorized vendors are the "Hammer and Chain", anywhere Material Components are sold, the "Normal" and "Wand"
    vendors in the Marketplace.
    House Patron Vendors are NOT allowed.

  8. #1108
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    Default New System adopted

    Tonight was a success as the group of 8th level adventureres completed "Bargain of blood" at Hard Difficulty.
    One death resulted (me), when we forgot there could be traps.

    Tonight marks the beginning of a change to the year long "potential" Magic System we've been using.
    As of next week, we will be using a limitation using the Minimum Level to decide how much "Gear" is allowed to BEGIN an adventure.
    The amount will be the character Level times 1.5, rounded up. (This is a change from rounded DOWN)
    This results in a total sum of 14, adding all the minimum levels of "Equipable" Magic Items.
    The Kothos Set, and Belts of Moderate Fortification is still free as an Admin Item.

    We also agreed that any and all Quest "End Reward" Items are to be sold without exception.
    And lastly, each character's "First Aid Kit" will now only include "Tasty Ham" Normal Rations, but no Cure Light Wounds Potions.
    (Hopefully, Turbine will add these Non-Tavern Rations to a Tavern's Menu and not just in the DDO Store or as "Pork Barrels".)

    STORM---- As long as you're playing at Elite Difficulty, I can't see you reducing the Magic Items.

    Party on guys!

  9. #1109
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    Default 4 thoughts

    Elite difficulty is using 2.5 minimum level.
    Hard difficulty is using 1.5 minimum level.
    Why not make Normal difficulty 0.5 minimum level, and drop the d10 roll?

    Each play night is now simply qualified by difficulty level instead of having its own ruleset.

    -----

    On a separate but related note, I'm thinking we should consider allowing purchases from all vendors (but not auction house). For example, scroll abuse shouldn't be a problem as each scroll has a minimum level and you'd be crazy to buy one instead of a wand. And you wouldn't buy a wand because its minimum level is exorbitant. Its been months since I've found anything I'd want to equip from the random chests or the end rewards. If we're restricting our magic by minimum level, why not allow people to have what they actually want within that limit? I'd prefer to sell all my loot and use that money to buy what I like.

    -----

    I'm a big fan of dropping the CLW potions. Relying on the hams made the game more fun.

    -----

    Zerfjoe, I get your point about classes. However, I'd recommend that the current restriction remain in place (no monk, druid, favored soul) and that sorcerer be added to the list. I'm willing to re-roll Kierik as...something else.

  10. #1110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magiker View Post
    Why not make Normal difficulty 0.5 minimum level, and drop the d10 roll?

    Each play night is now simply qualified by difficulty level instead of having its own ruleset.
    Only because the Monday night group is playing a MORE Classic D&D than the others are.
    My intent is to get to a point that the only Magic you ever see is what you "happen" to stumble onto in a Dungeon.

    The characters PRIME ability to adventure is from their stats and natural abilities.
    Magic is merely a augment.

    ML 1.5 has only begun its transformation.

  11. #1111
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    Intruder, you have a PM. Nothing major, I only mention it because the inbox only shows up if you're actually looking at a thread. Which is kinda annoying.

  12. #1112
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Great. As soon as everyone chimes in that they can participate, we can begin again to discuss.
    I'm back (finally) - posted a couple times in the STORM thread.

    Question Intruder - aside from "flavor", why do you dislike cure light potions and prefer rations? If they sold pork barrel style rations from the taverns, how is that different from buying cure light potions from potion vendors?

  13. #1113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora1 View Post
    I'm back (finally) - posted a couple times in the STORM thread.

    Question Intruder - aside from "flavor", why do you dislike cure light potions and prefer rations? If they sold pork barrel style rations from the taverns, how is that different from buying cure light potions from potion vendors?
    Only because it takes BYOH out of the equation DURING a fight. No one should be able to fully heal themselves during a fight (except a Cleric). Magic is RARE in classic, that includes potions.
    Currently, there is no real "death penalty". Taking BYOH away kinda emphysizes staying alive.
    IF you find a Healing Potion "in a quest", it becomes "Oh, WOW! a potion of Healing!" instead of "Oh...another Potion for the Kit."

    eventually, I think you can find everything you could "buy" elsewhere in a Quest. It's good to have Magic Stuff Rare.

    It's TOUGH getting away from Ebberon.

  14. #1114
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    Reminder.......so far, the only change has been to eliminate Cure light Potions, accept only Valor as an end result, and adopt ML1.5 (rounded UP).

    Hammer and Chain, ANY Material Component Vendor, or any Vendor Selling NORMAL gear are the only vendors allowed to use.

    The d10 roll was derived from interpreting DM'ing advise from various D&D books, while taking into account what actually drops in the game from various sources.
    That roll is NOT included in ML 1.5 playstyle yet.

  15. #1115
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    Default When to separate from players who don't cooperate without seeming rude

    Very interesting thread............
    https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...out-being-rude

  16. #1116
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    The Monday night group MAY now have it's 4th member.
    This group is testing Turbine's claim that Quests are designed for "4" characters on Normal difficulty.

    The only major rules are End Rewards can only be Valor, no Magic.
    Chests do NOT contain Equipable Magic items 90% of the time. (Have to roll a 1 on a d10 in party chat BEFORE opening chest.)
    Breakables DO sometimes contain Equipable Magic. (I wish chests were the same way!)
    Only NORMAL items are to be purchased from ANY vendor.
    Otherwise anything found "in a Quest" can be used and kept from adventure to adventure.

  17. #1117
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Only because it takes BYOH out of the equation DURING a fight. No one should be able to fully heal themselves during a fight (except a Cleric). Magic is RARE in classic, that includes potions.
    Currently, there is no real "death penalty". Taking BYOH away kinda emphysizes staying alive.
    IF you find a Healing Potion "in a quest", it becomes "Oh, WOW! a potion of Healing!" instead of "Oh...another Potion for the Kit."

    eventually, I think you can find everything you could "buy" elsewhere in a Quest. It's good to have Magic Stuff Rare.

    It's TOUGH getting away from Ebberon.

    As I'm sure everyone has noticed, if you eat a ham before you fight you will be healing the entire time you are fighting. Like Fedora I just don't see much difference between a magical ham and a magical potion. Lugging a sack full of 50 hams through a dungeon isn't any less silly than carrying around a backpack with 50 potions.


    If the issue is really 'no self-healing except from spells during a fight' then just restrict potion use until after the fight.

  18. #1118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    As I'm sure everyone has noticed, if you eat a ham before you fight you will be healing the entire time you are fighting. Like Fedora I just don't see much difference between a magical ham and a magical potion. Lugging a sack full of 50 hams through a dungeon isn't any less silly than carrying around a backpack with 50 potions.


    If the issue is really 'no self-healing except from spells during a fight' then just restrict potion use until after the fight.
    No one has enough will power NOT to use a potion during a fight.
    Try fighting while healing just 5 points per 6 seconds.
    Hams are controlled to about 10 per adventure in ML1.5 and Hams are not used at all in the Monday night group.

    All of this is merely getting players towards zero BYOH. Step by step.
    Those who can not adapt will lose interest.
    I do not expect ML2.5 to adopt these guidelines unless you really want to. It is your choice.

  19. #1119
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    No one has enough will power NOT to use a potion during a fight.

    I've played in enough perma-death guilds that use the honor system regarding all types of rules to know that is categorically untrue. There are entire guilds full of players, like THACO, who choose to play a certain way because it is fun for them and cheating would be defeating the purpose of the self-imposed rules.


    The 'potion quaffing' animation is also pretty noticeable. So even if someone's will power did falter, it would be obvious to the rest of the party.

    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    I do not expect ML2.5 to adopt these guidelines unless you really want to. It is your choice.
    I'm not arguing FOR more potion use, quite the contrary as I rarely use either, I'm simply stating that as a long time player I see little difference between consuming item A for hit points or item B for hit points except that item A (hams) simulate a self-cast vigor spell and item B (pots) simulates a self-cast clw spell.

    I think it is great you are moving away from using them entirely except for what is found in quest.

  20. #1120
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    As far as I understand it, hams are finite and potions are not. There is no ham vendor.

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