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  1. #1041
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kerikofgreyhawk
    Also, its funny that you're not counting the times that the arcanes cast Stoneskin and Blur (and Fire Arrow) on the melees. That makes a difference that isn't being mentioned.
    Actually it further proves the point that melees need some sort of help the same way arcanes and rogues do.

    Arcanes need help because they have a limited blue bar.

    Rogues need help or they may as well not invest in anything but UMD, skill points alone will not let them spot/find/disable at anything above normal.

    Melees need help because at mid-higher levels, monsters with all sorts of resist/incorp/fortification and high strength essentially turn melees into punching bags. We can hit the thing (if we aren't stunned/knocked down/held or blown to smitherines by a lightning bolt from no evasion), but we can't damage the dumb thing with a standard +3 Falchion or whatnot.

    Let everyone be effective at what their class is SUPPOSED to be able to do. Or take away all special privileges IF the true goal is just to have fun in the quest beating it without a monty-haul of DDO magic.

    How many times can a fighter cast a spell? The answer is - less times than a wizard can swing a quarterstaff.
    Last edited by Fedora; 04-02-2013 at 09:20 PM.

  2. #1042
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kierik
    [color=purple]
    How many times can Kierik throw out a Maximized Scorching Ray? On a Very Long Quest, not many. How many times can Caliban swing his axe? If Caliban can have an uber axe and swing it unlimited times, is that fair?

    I'd counter thusly: how many times can Kierik cast a regular scorching ray? (The answer is UNLIMITED TIMES). If Kierik can cast a spell that at level 8 (with spell enhancements) can do 40-75 damage per cast an unlimited number of times per quest, is that fair?


    Thanks to echoes of power a sorcerer (or wizard) can cast scorching ray every 12 seconds until he leaves the quest. He can cast Niac's every 6 seconds. If Kierik is a fire savant (I don't know if you allow savant prestige) he can cast maximized burning hands every three seconds for the entire duration of any quest. Kierik (and Grondley and Tukcc) has an unlimited supply of mana to cast any spell (and spell like ability) that costs 12 sp or less. That's most first and second level spells and ALL maximized + empowered spell like abilities that a savant gets.


    Furthermore, Caliban has to close to melee range to use his 'uber' axe (risking being hit), he has to succeed on a 'to hit' roll to land a blow, and, unless he's rocking a Carnifex, he probably does less damage than 40-75 per hit. In light of all this, yes, it is fair that Caliban can swing his uber axe an unlimited number of times.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kierik
    Um. Really?

    The point of the Quest is the quest itself, not the end.

    Then why bother looting anything? Why not just say no to all magic items period and be done with it? I think the answer, at least for me, is that adventurers seek both fame AND fortune. Part of the fun of playing D&D is overcoming obstacles and beating the challenges the DM set before you, part of the fun is advancing in level and getting more spells and abilities, and another part of the fun is seeing what kind of neat stuff you earned.
    Last edited by Postumus; 04-03-2013 at 01:33 AM.

  3. #1043
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    Arcanes need help because they have a limited blue bar.
    Arcanes (and clerics & favored souls) have an unlimited blue bar thanks to echoes of power. Arcanes don't need any 'help' when it comes to magic items, they are already the most powerful classes in the game... even at low level.

    Trappers are probably the most gear dependent role in DDO. Melees are close behind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    Let everyone be effective at what their class is SUPPOSED to be able to do. Or take away all special privileges IF the true goal is just to have fun in the quest beating it without a monty-haul of DDO magic.
    I agree. I think we are on the right track with limiting the number of magic items each character can have based on level. The sticking point seems to be how 'powerful' those items are determined to be. Some named items are quite weak. Some random items are quite powerful (any weapon with lacerating on it).

    I think some simple classification based on how the game determines min level for items could be a good rule of thumb. You have a good idea, but it starts to get a bit math intensive.

    With the exception of the 'no named items' portion, think Intruder's latest idea seems to fit the bill:

    1 Item per Level, but can not be a Named Item, from now on, only generic Magic Items.
    ML will cap power.
    Items will be catagorized Mundane, Minor, Moderate and Major.
    Catagory Limits will be devised.

    No free sets.

    Admin items designated once a need is PROVEN.
    Last edited by Postumus; 04-03-2013 at 01:30 AM.

  4. #1044
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    I wonder if a group of low level characters with NO magic Items at all could manage a Quest AT LEVEL on Normal Difficulty?
    Or an 8th Level group in an 8th Level Quest on Normal?

    If not, can you tell me why?

  5. #1045
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    I wonder if a group of low level characters with NO magic Items at all could manage a Quest AT LEVEL on Normal Difficulty?
    Or an 8th Level group in an 8th Level Quest on Normal?

    If not, can you tell me why?
    If it is a balanced group without a bunch of "jack-of-all-trades", I would be willing to bet "yes", at least the possibility is there with a bit of luck.

    By balanced, I mean the standard mix of melee, arcane, divine, and rogue.

    But each one has to MAX what he is SUPPOSED to be good at. No more half-this and half that. The TEAM is stronger than the SUM of it's characters. Their individual weaknesses are big, thus they NEED each other.

  6. #1046
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    Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    I wonder if a group of low level characters with NO magic Items at all could manage a Quest AT LEVEL on Normal Difficulty?
    Or an 8th Level group in an 8th Level Quest on Normal?

    If not, can you tell me why?

    Because it would be very boring. I can imagine loads of players rushing to a no magic pnp d+d game :-/ . Its also human nature for story, motivation and reward or if you like work, pay, down the pub. There was a time when i played, i thought why do i even bother to look in the chest not because i was having fun but frustration and anger. To top that i could buy a cure wand and use all charges up keeping 'not working' characters alive. Now you have a stack of potions keeping 'not working' characters alive. Arcanes doing a similar thing. Which you will STILL do even on normal.
    *Sarcasticly* what do your wens night melee''s do exactly, would'nt you be better with a couple of hire's :-). Sorry but thats not ad+d pnp. My leaving story summed that up.

    Or you could change

    Heavy Role-player---The story is the focus. You might spend hours, sometimes days, refining and developing a background for your character. You will spend 50-75% of your time online in chat sessions acting out your characters lives, and actually playing the game with that character.

    Computer Gamer---The Game is the focus. You spend almost all of your time doing quests or activities with progression in mind. Find the perfect combination of items, stats, etc that propel you to the top of your league.

    Either end of the spectrum described above is cool. We all play games for different reasons.

    What I wonder is.....can DDO be used to bring back the fun of talking to each other and (most important) CHARACTER-PLAYING the GAME.

    To
    Heavy Role player---rp means nothing. You spend almost all of your time doing quests or activities with absolutely nothing in mind except staying alive. You will spend 50-75% of your time online in chat sessions complaining about characters lives, and actually playing the game 5% with that TOON.

    Computer Gamer. The Game is the focus. You will spend almost all of your time running way. using nothing but a 2 button analogue joystick.

    Either end of the spectrum described above is cool. We all play games for different reasons.

    What I wonder is.....can DDO be used to bring back the fun of talking to each other and (most important) CHARACTER-PLAYING the GAME.
    Last edited by SlowDM; 04-03-2013 at 06:45 AM.
    Just awestruck, wether it be a Dragon flying overhead Stormreach, that glowing character who just zoomed in'n'out of the Pub, or that i can drink a Beholder under the table and best of all rescuing Damsels in distress.

  7. #1047
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowDM View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Intruder1
    I wonder if a group of low level characters with NO magic Items at all could manage a Quest AT LEVEL on Normal Difficulty?
    Or an 8th Level group in an 8th Level Quest on Normal?

    If not, can you tell me why?
    Because it would be very boring.
    So, unless there are Magic Items, the game is boring and can never be "fun"?

    Quote Originally Posted by SlowDM View Post

    *Sarcasticly* what do your wens night melee''s do exactly, would'nt you be better with a couple of hire's :-). Sorry but thats not ad+d pnp.
    My leaving story summed that up.
    *Sarcasticly* Hmmm....Unless I'm mistaken, we still had "fun" AFTER you left too.

    Quote Originally Posted by SlowDM View Post
    Or you could change
    To

    Heavy Role player---rp means nothing. You spend almost all of your time doing quests or activities with absolutely nothing in mind except staying alive. You will spend 50-75% of your time online in chat sessions complaining about characters lives, and actually playing the game 5% with that TOON.

    Computer Gamer. The Game is the focus. You will spend almost all of your time running way. using nothing but a 2 button analogue joystick.
    I thought about making some type of appropriate response, but the statement itself testifies to the shallowness of your expectations.
    Sorry, but that "IS" D&D PnP.

  8. #1048
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    If it is a balanced group without a bunch of "jack-of-all-trades", I would be willing to bet "yes", at least the possibility is there with a bit of luck.
    I'd have to disagree. That's not from speculation, but having been there, done that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    By balanced, I mean the standard mix of melee, arcane, divine, and rogue..
    That I agree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    But each one has to MAX what he is SUPPOSED to be good at. No more half-this and half that. The TEAM is stronger than the SUM of it's characters. Their individual weaknesses are big, thus they NEED each other.
    I don't think it's either "Max" or go home, but (in DDO) multiclassing makes it MUCH tougher, especially above "Normal".
    I "think" what you mean by "MAX".... is a character has to embody one of the basic classes.
    If he's a Fighter, he should be able to FIGHT.
    If he's a Rogue, he should be able to.....eh......ROGUE!

  9. #1049
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    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Arcanes (and clerics & favored souls) have an unlimited blue bar thanks to echoes of power. Arcanes don't need any 'help' when it comes to magic items, they are already the most powerful classes in the game... even at low level.
    The way DDO has casters implemented, yes. But that can be brought under control with feat and enhancement ommissions. (Somewhat)

    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Trappers are probably the most gear dependent role in DDO. Melees are close behind.
    Played the DDO way....yes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I agree. I think we are on the right track with limiting the number of magic items each character can have based on level. The sticking point seems to be how 'powerful' those items are determined to be. Some named items are quite weak. Some random items are quite powerful (any weapon with lacerating on it).
    Agreed. But we may not be able to exactly balance things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    I think some simple classification based on how the game determines min level for items could be a good rule of thumb. You have a good idea, but it starts to get a bit math intensive.

    With the exception of the 'no named items' portion, think Intruder's latest idea seems to fit the bill:
    Min Level.....yes, that's an interesting good idea.
    Math Intensive........does not have to be.
    "No Named Items".....yeah, let me take that back, after looking thru the list, an idea started to form.

  10. #1050
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    Classic AD&D Module "L1"
    "The Secret of Bone Hill"
    Character Levels 2-4

    In the back of the Module......
    "The Characters suggested below may be used in L1 for players who do not have appropriate characters available at the appropriate Levels."

    Fighter 4th Lvl, STR 17, INT13, WIS 15, DEX 13, CON 13, CHA 8
    Normal Chain and Shield, +1 Long Sword, Potion of Extra Healing.

    Thief 4th Lvl, STR 13, INT 13, WIS 13, DEX 17, CON 14, CHA 10
    Normal Leather, +1 Dagger

    Cleric 3rd Lvl, STR 15, INT 13, WIS 17, DEX 13, CON 14, CHA 13
    Normal Chain, +1 Shield, Normal Mace


    I acknowledge............
    Monsters in DDO have way more hit points, therefore normal weapons are of lesser value.
    Monsters Stats and abilities are HIGHER than 2nd Edition counterparts.
    THESE characters are actually a bit more "beefy" than ones rolled up for the "Storm" Party.

    Nonetheless, after accepting that 1 "+1" Magic Item per 3-4 levels was suggested for an OFFICIAL AD&D Module....
    A set of Magic Items that (1) Gives you better protection, (2) Increases you ability to score Hits AND inflict MORE Damage, (3) decreases Monsters ability to cast spells at you........should be sufficient.

    But most of all the Module (Quest) must be matched to the party, not the other way around.


    CONSIDER THIS..........
    Every Item in the game has an ML. If it isn't listed, it's obviously ML1.
    There IS a pattern to the ML's, it's not entirely acurate, but it can be used in place of the "Potential".

    Treat the ML numbers as sort of a Category number.
    Each Character is entitled to TWO (2) numbers per level.
    A 2nd level Character could use (2) ML2 items, or (4) ML1 Items.
    The SUM of all the ML's you wish to bring into a Quest can not exceed twice your level.
    This would INCLUDE Named Items or not.
    Simple?

    This way, while you CAN have more than 1 item per level, it would probably be a benefit at lower levels, but become inferior at higher levels.
    It would be more likely (at higher levels), you'd end up with 1 or 2 Major Items followed by a few Minor ones and maybe a few Mundane Items to round it out.
    As your level goes up, the definition of "Major" and "Minor" changes with you.
    This might actually be more simple and easier to work with.

    And if you included the "1 item per level", it might be even more ideal.
    1st level--(1) ML1
    2nd Level--(1) ML2 or (2) ML1
    3rd Level --(1) ML3 or (1) ML2 + (1) ML1 or (3) ML3
    You get the point.......
    Last edited by intruder1; 04-03-2013 at 10:44 AM.

  11. #1051
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    I'd have to disagree. That's not from speculation, but having been there, done that.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but you have "been there, done that" with a party that includes at least 2 Multi Class characters, correct?

    Exchange any level 8 characters that are 4/4 splits, or 3/3/2 and replace them with pure level 8's. Then see if it could be done.

  12. #1052
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    So, unless there are Magic Items, the game is boring and can never be "fun"?
    Of course not but its boring when characters don't work.


    *Sarcasticly* Hmmm....Unless I'm mistaken, we still had "fun" AFTER you left too.
    Sarcasm is a form of humour in england. GREAT reply :-)

    I thought about making some type of appropriate response, but the statement itself testifies to the shallowness of your expectations. Yes my expectations were indeed shallowed.

    Sorry, but that "IS" D&D PnP.
    Either end of the spectrum described above is cool. We all play games for different reasons.
    In ravenloft yes characters felt death constantly. I've spent all night just rolling dice . I've spent all night just talking through a quest. The players died occasionally. Most traps were not instant death. Most monsters did'nt kill you with 1 hit. The story, clever villan's, madcap player antics thats how i remember pnp and still dm once every 2-3 months. A story motivates the players and depth of npc's. The last 3 pnp sessions have been without a cleric in the party, hence my monsters started using more incapactating-attack/spells rather than damage that way its still a challenge and fun without the need for a backpack full of potiom's or the need to retreat to town. Its not the dm's job to kill the characters its his role to help them have fun. Its not usualy fun for a player to sit out the game. You can't win d+d. Players are supposed at least to think they have won but the dm knows he/she will get them in the end *evil cackle*.
    DDD like pnp has a vast variety of quests some easy, some near impossible, some boring, some still spoken about years later. What DDO does'nt have is a human dm. But once adjusted the the ddo dm style you can play your character your way with as much or little challenge complexity or story as you could desire.
    Last edited by SlowDM; 04-03-2013 at 05:23 PM.
    Just awestruck, wether it be a Dragon flying overhead Stormreach, that glowing character who just zoomed in'n'out of the Pub, or that i can drink a Beholder under the table and best of all rescuing Damsels in distress.

  13. #1053
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    PM received from Kerik......

    Quote Originally Posted by kerikofgreyhawk
    But each one has to MAX what he is SUPPOSED to be good at. No more half-this and half that. The TEAM is stronger than the SUM of it's characters. Their individual weaknesses are big, thus they NEED each other.
    If you're talking about Roles, then I agree. Everyone should pick a role and focus resources upon it.

    If you're talking about Classes, then I don't agree. Because I think there are multiclass options that can support a single role.

    ----------
    P.S. I finally got an email from support. More web development is needed before I'll be able to post in this forum.

  14. #1054
    Community Member Fedora's Avatar
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    "Role" IF it applies to the general strengths of the class chosen, yes.
    If your "role" is to be a jack of all trades, no.

    No paladins that want to use evasion, no rogues that want to heal, or whatever else that would spread the class strengths too thin that they become "ok" so you can also be "ok" at something else.

    Exceptions are of course possible. A halfling rogue with the dragonmark of healing and UMD high enough to use cure wands would not be spreading himself too thin. But a halfling rogue/cleric is too thin. He will be good at neither trapping nor healing.

  15. #1055
    Community Member Postumus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    Classic AD&D Module "L1"
    "The Secret of Bone Hill"
    Character Levels 2-4
    That was a good one.


    Quote Originally Posted by intruder1 View Post
    CONSIDER THIS..........


    Treat the ML numbers as sort of a Category number.
    Each Character is entitled to TWO (2) numbers per level.
    A 2nd level Character could use (2) ML2 items, or (4) ML1 Items.
    The SUM of all the ML's you wish to bring into a Quest can not exceed twice your level.
    This would INCLUDE Named Items or not.
    Simple?

    This way, while you CAN have more than 1 item per level, it would probably be a benefit at lower levels, but become inferior at higher levels.
    It would be more likely (at higher levels), you'd end up with 1 or 2 Major Items followed by a few Minor ones and maybe a few Mundane Items to round it out.
    As your level goes up, the definition of "Major" and "Minor" changes with you.
    This might actually be more simple and easier to work with.

    And if you included the "1 item per level", it might be even more ideal.
    1st level--(1) ML1
    2nd Level--(1) ML2 or (2) ML1
    3rd Level --(1) ML3 or (1) ML2 + (1) ML1 or (3) ML3
    You get the point.......
    Sounds good to me. Very easy to remember.

  16. #1056
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    What is wrong with korthos set? At level 3, they are already replaced by a group of random items. Have no idea about other people.

  17. #1057
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowDM View Post
    *Sarcasticly* Hmmm....Unless I'm mistaken, we still had "fun" AFTER you left too.
    Sarcasm is a form of humour in england. GREAT reply :-)

    .
    Azlorn......you are STILL "da man!".

  18. #1058
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedora View Post
    "Role" IF it applies to the general strengths of the class chosen, yes.
    If your "role" is to be a jack of all trades, no.

    No paladins that want to use evasion, no rogues that want to heal, or whatever else that would spread the class strengths too thin that they become "ok" so you can also be "ok" at something else.

    Exceptions are of course possible. A halfling rogue with the dragonmark of healing and UMD high enough to use cure wands would not be spreading himself too thin. But a halfling rogue/cleric is too thin. He will be good at neither trapping nor healing.
    Absolutely agree.

    Tukcc, the Fighter/Cleric, is my personal experiment into multiclassing in DDO.
    Thru 8th Level, I have to say he's more Fighter and a Weak Cleric, and I don't expect things to change much.
    Even though Elves aren't supposed to be "Divine".

    Once he gets to the point where he must do Quests on Casual Difficulty, he will retire and give himself up to the Undying Council for judgement by the Ancestors and, if he has been worthy, be reincarnated as a Paladin.
    (not DDO TR, just "role-play" reincarnation)
    Last edited by intruder1; 04-04-2013 at 11:36 AM.

  19. #1059
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intruder
    CONSIDER THIS..........
    Every Item in the game has an ML. If it isn't listed, it's obviously ML1.
    There IS a pattern to the ML's, it's not entirely acurate, but it can be used in place of the "Potential".

    Treat the ML numbers as sort of a Category number.
    Each Character is entitled to TWO (2) numbers per level.
    A 2nd level Character could use (2) ML2 items, or (4) ML1 Items.
    The SUM of all the ML's you wish to bring into a Quest can not exceed twice your level.
    This would INCLUDE Named Items or not.
    Simple?

    This way, while you CAN have more than 1 item per level, it would probably be a benefit at lower levels, but become inferior at higher levels.
    It would be more likely (at higher levels), you'd end up with 1 or 2 Major Items followed by a few Minor ones and maybe a few Mundane Items to round it out.
    As your level goes up, the definition of "Major" and "Minor" changes with you.
    This might actually be more simple and easier to work with.

    And if you included the "1 item per level", it might be even more ideal.
    1st level--(1) ML1
    2nd Level--(1) ML2 or (2) ML1
    3rd Level --(1) ML3 or (1) ML2 + (1) ML1 or (3) ML3
    You get the point.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Postumus View Post
    Sounds good to me. Very easy to remember.
    Discussed this system with Kerik, Grondley, Cogs and Cali.
    I think it has a LOT of potential () but results emerge depending on your class.
    When assessed against the "Current" loadout.
    Spellcasters were a couple points OVER the limit, while Melees may find themselves capable of bringing a little more into an Adventure.

    Naturally, this did not set well with the Spellcasters.

    It was suggested to add a .5 to the factor.
    At this point it NEEDS experimentation and above all other considerations, should not exceed the typical loadout of a Classic Character.

    Take a look at your "Storm" characters and apply a limit of 8 ML's (3x2.5, rounded up) and see how that "fits" in relation to the current 3 "potentials".

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    Todays word(s) of wisdom.....

    Quote Originally Posted by From someone in the New Postings

    In terms of annoying the group, you should never aggro anything as a ranged user (even when not kiting!), sad but true. With that said, standing your ground and bringing things to the melee kill zone minimizes this annoyance while still letting you shoot things, so groups should be tolerant of it. (Whether they will be or not, only the Shadow knows.)

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